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Why Improved Gunnery?


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#1 SeaW0lf

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Posted 17 June 2020 - 19:21

I was surprised by the damage model of ROF when I returned from Flying Circus, that the planes fall apart to anything. I even compared it to FC (yes, it is that bad). Only today, when people were complaining about folding wings, that I found that all servers, except J99 and Wargrounds, is using improved gunnery in their missions!

 

I was suspecting it in the last couple times I flew in ROF, but did any dserver updates set this way as default (and people did not realized it) or are the servers really using improved gunnery?

 

Anyway, there was the doubt, because this feature [combined with the DM] was always despised by everyone in ROF. Maybe the new crowd likes it? But it makes a good dogfight virtually impossible, as it is no longer possible to reverse the position (my favorite) or defend yourself from a bounce, as any hit causes your plane to fall apart or become close to inoperable.

 

For now I will try to be at the J99 server, which has more compact missions. Maybe another server will roll back to a more veteran setting, maybe this is a dserver bug.

 

Anyways, just wanted to ask, because with improved gunnery is just not possible to have a real dogfight, especially flying underdogs like the N17 and Camel (the latter compared to the Dr.I).  

 

Cheers,


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#2 knalp

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 01:42

Ah... I beg to differ.

 

Dispersion is just terrible. bad. ( this was my opinion from the start )

 

Super bright tracers enable "easy mode" shooting. bad.

 

Gun sights that are not adjustable. bad.

 

Gun training that is not adjustable. bad.

 

 

Improved gunnery means very simply that if you are ON target you can hose them down.

And if you are OFF target you will really really miss with your hose. ( much like real guns do )

 

The extreme simplification of gunnery in RoF is pretty naff. It's not very good.

 

If you have ever sighted in a rifle for a given range and considered the various methods

for dealing with targets that are at different ranges etc you will find RoF has all it's

adjustment glued tight and one size fits all. ( Rubbish! )

 

improved gunnery is a step in the right direction I feel. But it needs to part of a

whole gunnery improvement package.

 

For example in the Se5a, the guns are trained on some point in the distance.

What is that range? Why training so low? Why do the guns not fire in the direction  

that all real se5a's fire? Is there some really good reason? Or did some person  

in the dev team make an arbitrary call on what the simulation should do....   really?

 

The gunnery in RoF is cheap.

It's mediocre.

Flashy tracers, smoke trails and stupid fixed points of impact.

 

No one cares, but all those who may have given a toss went to BoX and made sure they   

got things right there. Duh.

 

Try shooting with the TRACERS OFF and see how well you do then! 

 

The small amount of declination in the N17 GBR lewis gun to allow the bullets to

intersect with the longerun line at some point out the front, totally scrubs off the  

advantage you would have in a turn fight with your gun pointing INTO the turn,  

instead of OUT OF the turn. I mean COME ON. 

Ask anyone who uses the foster mount in anger and you will get a very good argument

as to why pointing the guns INTO the turn is a superpower. Jeepers.

( the fact that the foster mount won't do half measures is a blessing for the enemy...)

 

There is no added advantage in improved gunnery EXCEPT when you happen to be good

at aiming:  If you can keep a steady aim you will put more bullets on target, which is how guns really work.  

The fact that things will happen faster, pilots die, wings get full of holes etc  is mostly due to  

being able to see your tracers hit the target and you can keep them there.

 

and all those shots that spread out peppering the target are gone!

You have to actually aim well!

 

Mind you, you can adjust your twin MG's to converge at a given range right. But just not in RoF

( no amount of twiddling the "convergence" widget helps, it's a thing not of RoF..... )

 

Lets hope this rant fires up some blood to pump through the forum.... probably not. But if BSR reads this  

something might pop crackle and fizzz.... or not.

 

Improved gunnery is GREAT! Now fix the rest of the gunnery issues!

Imagine tracers OFF as a server setting. ha ha ha.

People would have to learn to shoot better!

 

S!

 

Knalp.

 

PS. Yes only one cup of coffee today but it was quite strong. : - )


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#3 SeaW0lf

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 04:05

So no one knows why servers are using improved gunnery? would it be because arcade settings would bring more players from other [arcade] games? Or is it because arcade settings help beginners get some kills and get excited to continue playing the game?

 

Anyone?


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#4 Arty_Effem

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 04:13


I was suspecting it in the last couple times I flew in ROF, but did any dserver updates set this way as default (and people did not realized it) or are the servers really using improved gunnery?

[

No change to DServer default, setting is deliberate.

 

 

Anyway, there was the doubt, because this feature [combined with the DM] was always despised by everyone in ROF.

 

 

Perhaps, until they realised the alternative is worse.

 

 

Maybe the new crowd likes it? But it makes a good dogfight virtually impossible, as it is no longer possible to reverse the position (my favorite) or defend yourself from a bounce, as any hit causes your plane to fall apart or become close to inoperable.

 

 

Hits have the same effect regardless.  Improved Gunnery just means reduced dispersion, which requires better marksmanship.

 

 

For now I will try to be at the J99 server, which has more compact missions

 

So that would be the server using the high-realism Aiming Help feature. 
 

 


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#5 SeaW0lf

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 05:03

So that would be the server using the high-realism Aiming Help feature. 

 

That would be the server where your plane doesn't fall apart if you sneeze. 
 
And from where does come your notion that bullet dispersion helps aiming? How borked this is. It is exactly the opposite and people asked for bullet dispersion to alleviate the folding wings problem. The same bullet dispersion that now some folks are asking in Flying Circus because they brought a DM that is just like ROF.
 
No wonder we are in this state of affairs.

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#6 Arty_Effem

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 11:03

 

That would be the server where your plane doesn't fall apart if you sneeze.

 

 

Your plane has exactly the same damage model and durability.

 

 

 

And from where does come your notion that bullet dispersion helps aiming?

 

 

Because if your aim is off, some of your shots are more likely still to be on target, hence the invention of the shotgun.

 

 

 

 

It is exactly the opposite and people asked for bullet dispersion to alleviate the folding wings problem. The same bullet dispersion that now some folks are asking in Flying Circus because they brought a DM that is just like ROF.
 
No wonder we are in this state of affairs.

 

 

The only problem in this area is due to misguided perception and expectation.  Should FC ever default to dispersion gunnery, rest assured it will be overridden.

 

Secret Bonus Hint:  Use skill and judgement to get into a firing position, while preventing your opponent from doing the same.

 

.

 

 


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#7 SeaW0lf

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 12:46

Lol, you mean arcade / Asteroids hint? If you get hit, you got hit. Game over. We could come up with some new Pac-Man skins.
 
And I put up with this for almost a couple months without realizing that things got to a whole new level of arcade. Both games became this dreadful dystopia in multiplayer lacking any kind of sense and realism.

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#8 knalp

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 21:30

Try this:

 

DL this mod:

 

https://riseofflight...acers/?p=710277

 

start a SP duel mission with improved gunnery ON.

 

Do you need a primer onhow to use mods and JSGME ?

 

Tell me what you think.

 

oooh that gives me an idea....

 

S!

 

Knalp.


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#9 SeaW0lf

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Posted 19 June 2020 - 04:40

Try this:

 

DL this mod:

 

https://riseofflight...acers/?p=710277

 

start a SP duel mission with improved gunnery ON.

 

Do you need a primer onhow to use mods and JSGME ?

 

Tell me what you think.

 

oooh that gives me an idea....

 

S!

 

Knalp.

 

If it is the mod to strengthen the wings, it could work and come close to the original DM in Flying Circus, but it is single player, or mods on server. It would require a server dedicated to it and some advertisement on the forum. But I'm not sure if the engine failures and fuel tanks would be still more vulnerable.

 

The original FC damage model was pretty good under that context - concentrated gunnery and *strong wings / fuselage, no shaking unless you were pretty banged up.

 

Meaning bullets just puncturing the fabric with no significant damage to the FM.

 

Yesterday I had a good scrap flying a Dolphin against three D.Va at Fast and Furious (no improved gunnery). Came back to base shaking as if I had the plague, but I could dogfight the three of them (and a D7 at the end) for some 15 minutes, something virtually impossible in servers with improved gunnery on. I would lose my [glass] wings upon the first hit. In one of these servers with improved gunnery, I was shooting down Halb D2s as if I had a laser gun. It was one shot, one kill. One shot, one kill.

 

Anyways, I might alternate in between Fast and Furious and J99 for a while. ROF has some amazing contrast and rendering, but the DM / gunnery is its Achilles’ heel for sure. I might even fire DCS again. But these simulators are littered with problems. I'm hoping for MFS 2020.


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#10 knalp

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Posted 19 June 2020 - 09:53

If it is the mod to strengthen the wings, ...

Er, no it's not. Sorry!

 

S!

 

Knalp.


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