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Rotary planes seem to get "stuck" while turning left at a certain speeds....


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#1 Plank

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 22:10

Dear Chaps.

 

I have nagged about this before, but of course it sounded like the normal Plankian whinge.

 

Jumped into the DR1 and got stuck into a brawl. ( Central was losing and had less players.)

 

We were getting carved up by Se5a's they were working like a well oiled machine.

( Luckily they are were not bullet proof...)

 

After spending an inordinate amount of time in the Camel and getting rather comfortable in it I

found the DR1 to be an intolerant little monster. : - )

 

This is completely normal.

 

I got my game face on and just dove in, bullets were screaming, engines overheating, wings everywhere, that sort of thing.

 

Then the dreaded turn left stall thing thing reared it's ugly nose....

 

Now I am no novice, but having flown the Camel for a good while and learned to fly it ok the leap onto the DR! threw the planes habits into stark relief.

 

And this is the point which I labor over:

 

While turning left. at a certain speed the plane seems to get stuck, no amount of anything bar

turning right will save you.

 

And it makes sense really if you think of the plane as a set of changing variables.

At some point a couple or more  will negate a third and/or fourth.

 

When in this state the rudder does nothing.

It is like it does not exist.

Rolling left stops working.

and blipping, that magic cure for all rotary ills, is on the blink.

 

 

Some times, it feels like the plane is slipping forward.

On a strange angle of course.

Nose up a bit.

 

Hmm...

 

 

What is interesting is I have come across this in the N17.

 

Obviously after you get the hang of a plane you avoid letting it get anywhere near this point.

 

but the fact remains that it can do this....

 

 

is this an actual thing OR an artifact created by the RoF FM?

 

 

In investigating the phenomena I have found it is quite hard to replicate the exact conditions that

produce it. Try as I might I cannot seem to get the plane to do it again.

 

BUT in the heat of the battle, you certainly know when you are in it, as you very quickly run out of options.

 

Occasionally I see novice pilots flying their DR1's "sideways" and I am pretty sure they are not in control...

 

Thoughts?

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#2 raker

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 16:08

There are others that fly the Dr1 perfectly well. So, maybe we could identify the problem?


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#3 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 16:32

The people best equipped to identify the problem left this forum in disgust back when it was flooded with Plankturn discussions. Others may still remember how rude and aggresive OP was when actual flight physics RoF is trying to model was explained to him, and it didn't match his expectations. So, why bother?
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#4 Plank

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 01:35

"The people best equipped to identify the problem left this forum in disgust back when it was flooded with Plankturn discussions."

 

So you are now going to ban yourself for off topic sledging? Come off it, anyone who leaves this forum in disgust at my assertions

was probably ready to leave with their bags packed and used me as an excuse...

and for the sake of all things flappy Plank turning is actually a thing, by another name,

and in certain planes is quite doable.

and you brought it back up so you have yourself to blame.

 

and...

 

Ahem.

 

I am no J9 Austin in a DR1 but I have practiced a bit in it and the N17 ...

 

and while flying both of them I noted that they seem to "lock up" every now and then.

 

A rational explanation request is neither spam, breaking the rules or sacrilegious heresy. 

 

Or are you trying to derail this thread?

 

so put some info on the table or ban yourself.

 

maybe Libby would like to explain the situation in both planes? Since he seems to be backing you up with an up vote.

I am pretty sure he could do some good drawings of physics involved to make the planes in question behave so.

 

and maybe a way to reproduce this.

 

but then Libby is still here and by your assertion the best equipped to identify the problem have left...

 

Have to dash off.

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#5 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 10:15

"The people best equipped to identify the problem left this forum in disgust back when it was flooded with Plankturn discussions."

 

So you are now going to ban yourself for off topic sledging? 

 

I see no contributive topic, or discussion of such, here. 
 

Come off it, anyone who leaves this forum in disgust at my assertions

was probably ready to leave with their bags packed and used me as an excuse...

Wrong. The people in question were active contributors with actual aviation experience (things that fly in not-simulated air). You may remember them; the ones you were attacking when they tried to explain to you why wing can't produce lift when flying backwards :angry: . They were in contact with me, too; they kept asking me to get rid of quack doctor approach from aerodynamics discussions for months, and when I failed to comply, they stopped posting. Guess I wasted all last chances they gave this forum to give you more last chances to fit in. 


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#6 Ice_Age

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 16:01

Trupo, if you really had wanted to help him, you should have started by giving him some basic tutorials on how to construct a coherent, multi-sentence paragraph in his own native language.
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#7 Plank

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 16:26

"I see no contributive topic, or discussion of such, here."

 

so this is your opinion as a forum member or as the forum moderator?

 

Talking about my observations of the DR1 and the N17 is not against the rules.

If you really don't like something you just IGNORE, like you have been telling everyone else.

 

"You may remember them; the ones you were attacking when they tried to explain to you why wing can't produce lift when flying backwards :angry:"

 

I am not sure what you are talking about here.

You will have to supply some evidence...

sounds like an interesting argument.

 

and it's nice to see that Mr Age has arrived to add his off topic two cents worth. Will you caution him ? I doubt it.

 

So.

 

It's pretty simple.

 

If you don't like something someone's posts you ignore them.

After a while they will sink out of sight and, that is that.

Too easy.

 

So why can't you/them just deal with this simple forum process and get on with your life/lives?

 

 

Back on topic.

 

The N11 and the Pup don't seem to get "stuck" *.

 

The N17 and the DR1 do.

 

All are rotaries.

 

Why would they have different behaviors? or not similar ones? 

 

and the N11 and N17 are essentially the same plane. ( well they look like it at any rate.)

 

* Stuck could be construed as "lose of control authority" if you like that kind of language.

 

Salute!

 

Planky.

 

PS. This piping hot crumpet and old dented tin mug of brandy is for you Ice.


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#8 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 16:33

If you really don't like something you just IGNORE, like you have been telling everyone else.

 

 

 

He's the moderator, it's his job to not ignore trolls.


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#9 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 17:33

so this is your opinion as a forum member or as the forum moderator?

 

 

Both POVs are in complete agreement about the opinion you quoted. Everything else is more conflicted. 

 

Talking about my observations of the DR1 and the N17 is not against the rules.

 

 

If it was against the rules the thread would be closed. It is not. Not breaking the rules does not make the topic yet (just ask raaaid).
 

and the N11 and N17 are essentially the same plane. ( well they look like it at any rate.)

 

:icon_eek: I rest my case.

 


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#10 =HillBilly=

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 17:59

Edited 


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     So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

 
 


#11 Plank

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 18:09

Nice.

 

So now that we have confirmed that I am not breaking any rules we can get on with the thread.

 

and you can stop being a cantankerous git.

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#12 Ice_Age

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 18:20

Hey Plank, I think you might have just broken a rule.
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#13 Plank

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 23:02

Well I see you are back to being a wanker as per usual.

 

Of course you wont get in trouble because you seem to be in bed with the mod.

 

This is of course in the  idiomatic sense. See here for clarification:

 

https://dictionary.c.../be-in-bed-with

 

of course what you do off the record is none of anyone's business.

 

Personally I am more interested in the TOPIC of the thread, not what you consider your duty.

( Cleaning toilets....)

 

and yes I may have broken a few more eggs in the process but that is the omelette life for you ...

 

Mind you, you could actually tell me all you know about the planes in question and your experiences flying them.

 

That would make a change from your gnawing passive aggression.

 

Have another brandy old chum, or three. Loosen up and for gods sake put down that Bakelite clipboard.

 

Your crumpet is going cold...

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#14 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 23:53

How to make an effective Plank thread:

 

Step one: Act like you're asking an innocent question.

 

Step two: Wait for someone to give you a correct, detailed answer.

 

Step three: Proceed to tell them everything known about aviation is wrong and how you, a revolutionary genius, has devised the "Plank Turn", an amazing maneuver that works an astonishing "1 out of 10 times".

 

Step four: Idiotic, pointless, debate ensues because Plank wants to make sure everyone else knows they're wrong.

 

Step five: Thread finally gets locked.

 

Step six: Make a thread about how moderator is unfair and how you are the crusader knight in shining armor, come to save us all from tyranny and bring us to the shining light of knowledge that is your fantabulous genius. NOTHING COMPARES TO THE FANTASTIC FIGHTING MACHINE THAT IS PLANK! ALL OTHERS BOW BEFORE HIM, AS HE SMITES ANYTHING IN HIS PATH WITH RAGING FLAMES OF FURY SPOUTING FROM HIS MAGNIFICENT BIRD OF PREY! NOTHING CAN STOP THE PLANK! HE IS THE FINEST PILOT RoF, no... HUMANITY HAS TO OFFER, PEERLESS IN HIS WIT! AND HUMBLE TO NO BOUNDS! ALL MUST BOW TO HIM, AS HE HAS NO EQUAL! ALL HAIL THE PLANK TURN!

 

 

 

 

Repeat steps for years until forum or Plank dies.


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#15 Plank

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:30

Oh for facks sake.

 

A you really this stupid?

 

 

God damn it.

 

 

You really think the ONLY reason why I post anything is to BAIT people into an argument so I can get a rise out of it?

 

Sorry for showing an interest in the game, the FM's and the forum. Heck.

 

This statement by Raker is the best response so far:

 

"There are others that fly the Dr1 perfectly well. So, maybe we could identify the problem?"

 

Although a little cryptic, then there is HB's effort :

 

"Edited"

 

and the rest is OFF TOPIC thread derailing nonsense/sledging.

 

 

 

OK I will make it really simple for you:

 

Hey I flew the DR1 and the N17 and they both have this strange quirk. Whats the deal ?

 

Yes I can see that being a type of flame war starter designed specifically to draw out the usual goons so I can eventually get banned.

 

Sounds pretty much my M.O.

 

 

Put some info on the table or piss off.

 

and thanks for not doing your job Trup. Again.

 

Oh and show me the part when I argued about this:

 

"You may remember them; the ones you were attacking when they tried to explain to you why wing can't produce lift when flying backwards."

 

No, I don't remember. Can you enlighten me, thanks.

 

 

This forum is not OWNED by the professional RoF exponents.

 

It is for everyone. And yes that include me.

 

So unless I broke a rule in my original post...

 

Get stuffed.

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#16 Ice_Age

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 02:47

Good to hear that you’ve found a solution to your problem. I knew it would be something simple like that.
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#17 Plank

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:27

Funny I get banned for "thread derailing" and yet, you can spam my threads with your B.S and it's ok by all accounts.

 

I have asked our moderator to look into it but he refuses.

 

Then he actually joins in.

 

So that is a green flag to you and anyone else.

 

What a joke.

 

but lest I do anything that "breaks the rules" I am unable to speak my mind.

 

Typical.

 

The clique group makes the rules and those who do not not fall in line are ostracised.

 

Why are you such a asshole? Because you can get away with it.

 

You have said nothing, zero, on the topic.

You are derailing the thread and adding your poisonousness B.S in your accumulated sense of entitlement.

 

the reason for this is that you perceive no merit in the discussion and you will do whatever it takes to make sure it gets buried.

 

Why our mod lets you carry on like this leads me to the only conclusion that he agree's and is willing to bend the rules to accommodate you.

 

Not exactly fair and equitable. Actually it's not at all.

 

So piss off and go and kick over someone else's sand castle.

 

You are a class A asshole. 100% outspoken jerk.

 

Stick to the topic.

 

and do your job moderator. ( oh let me guess it will be a lock and probably a ban. )

 

Holy crap how hard is it to do?

 

You have the rules. all you have to do is match them to the posts.

And remove the ones that break them.

 

Or do you get to decide what is "acceptable" as well?

 

For the record I don't post things with the intention of starting an argument.

 

however ice age does like to stir the pot. and you let him.

 

Try looking up the word "impartial".  you are not.

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#18 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 03:31

:icon_e_salute:


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#19 Plank

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 04:07

Look.

 

It's this simple.

 

I make a post about DR1 and the N17 and the way they seem to get "stuck" at times when flying.

 

I get abused.

 

Slanderous things are said.

 

NO ONE SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT THE TOPIC and here we are again.

 

I posted in good faith.

 

You guys seem to be unable to accept this and frankly it's YOUR PROBLEM.

 

The real reason people leave is there is not much to talk about anymore, that has not really been rehashed.

 

Those who do stay mind their own business and just carry on. great! That is what life is about.

 

 

Read this again slowly and let it percolate into your brain.

 

I POSTED IN GOOD FAITH.

 

I did not post to create a facking argument and really actually am interested to see what others have to say.

 

AND .... * gasp *

 

... this is something that our Mod decided was evidence against me:

"You may remember them; the ones you were attacking when they tried to explain to you why wing can't produce lift when flying backwards."

and I have no idea what he is talking about. SO GO ASK HIM.

 

This even simpler question:

 

Have you ever noticed that sometimes the DR1 and the N17 seem to NOT RESPOND to control inputs?

( Never noticed it in the N11, N28, Pup, Strutter etc. )

 

I posted about this a while ago and I am revisiting the topic again as I noticed it again while flying both planes.

 

OK? Is this an OK topic to start a thread on?

 

Or is it just "trash posting" ???

 

For the sake of humanity just try to consider the topic. OK? and write a valid response.

 

Thanks.

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#20 Ice_Age

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 04:14

Never had this happen on Dr1 or N17. Maybe there is something wrong with your controls.
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#21 Plank

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 05:34

My dear Ice age.

 

Yes, I have investigated controls. No problems there. Everything works fine.

This is of course as far as one can tell.

 

I can get in the plane and toss it about and nothing really daft happens...

But every now and then in the heat of battle... something does.

 

I scratch my head.

 

If I recall the rudder just does nothing.

You can go full left or right and the plane does nothing....

 

Once out of this it's business as usual.

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#22 J2_Bidu

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 08:38

Does the plane go up when you hit the left rudder? Or there is absolutely no effect? And does it apply to both left and right rudder? I suggest you record your flights until you get us a track with left rudder being applied and plane keeping course. That would be a productive contribution for this thread, in my opinion.
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#23 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:06

Read this again slowly and let it percolate into your brain.

 

I POSTED IN GOOD FAITH.

 

 

 

Says you. And not for first time in our long history. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me enough times, I start learning from my mistakes :angry: .

 

Funny I get banned for "thread derailing" and yet, you can spam my threads with your B.S and it's ok by all accounts.

 

I have asked our moderator to look into it but he refuses.

 

I did look into it, and saw no contributive topic that this thread could be derailed from. 
 

 this is something that our Mod decided was evidence against me:

"You may remember them; the ones you were attacking when they tried to explain to you why wing can't produce lift when flying backwards."

 

 

There is no "evidence against you". I tried to explain to you (and Raker earlier) why people who know answer to your question are uninterested in answering. Your reaction, as always when given the answer you didn't like, was aggressive denial (which sort of proves the point). Again, you broke no rules and I see no need to police this thread until someone does. 


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#24 J5_Klugermann

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:45

Since you have no experts left I thought I'd produce one of our own. Thanks to J5_Immortal for producing this video.

 


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#25 Plank

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 20:59

@ Bidu.

 

When I have been "stuck" in the DR1 and the N17 I did look back to check my rudder was still on.

It was.

And when giving full rudder either way, nothing happens.

 

Yes a video of track record would be the way forward.

I will try to get some. : - )

 

Possibly the nose roll right is countered by a left stalling wing and add a significant loss of E

but it's just at the very point where the plane is skidding a bit straight forward.

 

It's a weird thing.

 

What I normally get is the floaty nose up thing when I get my left turn wrong.

 

But why would the rudder not work?

I guess if there is not enough air flow and/or prop wash is not strong enough...

 

It's a bit like a brick falling forward. : - )

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#26 =VS=_emely

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 23:56

Interrupt the turn at loss of speed, this property of all aircraft in the ROF equipped with a rotary engine, but it manifests itself in different degrees, depending on the design of the glider.
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