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Camels over Italy


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#1 FLIK60J

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  • LocationSomewhere 3000 m above the ground – or near Vienna.

Posted 01 January 2018 - 23:50

My fellow aeronauts,

 

after sharing some Austro-Hungarian Albatros skins with you, I thought it might be a nice idea to add some of their historical opponents, too. The announcement of FC in the meantime has made this to a sort of a departing gift, as none of these skins will ever take to the skies in an official skinpack, nor will the Italian map by BaronVonMyakin likely ever be finished anymore. 

 

Be it as it may, I have put together one flight (in number, not necessarely by personel) of 28 Sqn, 45 Sqn and 66 Sqn RFC. I have tried to be as historical accurate, as my limited time and sources and knowledge about the RFC would allow for.

Yet, one question, or rather decision, was too tricky to be made: Was PC10 brown or green? Well, I read through a mass of heated discussions, who all petter out with more ore less the same conclusion: we simply don’t know (from a scientifically point of view). Contradicting eyewitnesses, a paint recipe that produces a dark chocolate brown – as well as a kind of khaki-olive drab green, depending on the amount of chinese blue added. I neutralize myself out of this calamity, by providing both versions. Personally, I am on the chocolate side of opinions (the historical photographs of 45 Sqn taken at Istrana airfield show very dark fuselages, too dark for an olive drabbish green and an admittedly daring recomposition of the paint with color layers in PSD according to the amount of pigments given in the official mixture recipe, which produces a fine chocolate brown). But these old pictures are treacherous, as I have learned with my Albatrosses before.

 

Some of the skins already existed before. But I wanted the flights to have similar colours, hues and details and I simply could not resist having a try on some of the more fancy dragons.

 

So, Happy New Year, guys! We are all waiting for our first take-offs and crashes in FC - until then, enjoy the good old RoF! 

 

Skins v1:

PC10 brown (Mediafire, 33.75 MB)

PC10 green (Mediafire, 34.65 MB) 

 

Skins v2:

PC10 brown (Mediafire, 67.57 MB)

PC10 green (Mediafire, 67.51 MB) 

 

Revisioned Skins v3:

PC10 brown (Mediafire, 67.25 MB)

PC10 green (Mediafire, 67.82 MB)

 

 

 

28 Sqn

B2455 Lt. E.G.Forder

B6313 Cpt. Barker

B6344 Cpt. Mitchell

B6363 Wilson

D8239 Lt. McEwen

E1502 Lt. Foss

Wilson, serial number unclear

 

Preview PC10 brown
 

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Attached File  B6363_b.jpg   151.15KB   1 downloads Attached File  D8239_b.jpg   130.51KB   1 downloads Attached File  E1502_b.jpg   129.5KB   0 downloads

Attached File  Wilson_C_b.jpg   88.09KB   0 downloads

 

Preview PC10 green

 

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Attached File  Wilson_C_od.jpg   159.12KB   0 downloads

 

 

45 Sqn

 

B2379 Lt. Masters

B2430 Cpt. McNabb Hand

B2494 Lt.Thompson

B6238 Cpt. Moody, Earl McNabb

B6372 Cpt. Frew

B6383 Cpt. Moody

D8237 Cpt. Cottle

 

Preview PC10 brown

 

Attached File  B2379_b.jpg   149.61KB   2 downloads Attached File  B2430_b.jpg   183.85KB   1 downloads Attached File  B2494_b.jpg   134.8KB   0 downloads

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Preview PC10 green

 
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B6313 Cpt. Barker
B6424 Lt. Birks
D8101 Lt. Birks
E7211 Lt. Goode
 
 Preview PC10 brown
 
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Preview PC10 green
 
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#2 US103_Larner

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 01:34

Gorgeous! Might have to start a new single player career just to use some of these ;) 


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VvWrIk4.png


#3 SeaW0lf

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 02:31

Really nice ones. Thanks for posting  :icon_e_salute: And Happy New Year!


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"There will be honor enough for us all."

#4 FLIK60J

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  • LocationSomewhere 3000 m above the ground – or near Vienna.

Posted 02 January 2018 - 12:04

Gorgeous! Might have to start a new single player career just to use some of these ;)

 

Thank you very much, Wulfe! I would be glad, if you might use one of my Camels. And don’t forget your umbrella on take off!  :icon_e_salute:


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#5 FLIK60J

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 12:08

Really nice ones. Thanks for posting  :icon_e_salute: And Happy New Year!

Thank you, SeaW0lf! Have a wonderful and peaceful year underneath the Pão de Açúcar!  :icon_e_smile:


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#6 Panthercules

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 17:28

Some nice looking skins, and I feel your pain about the green vs brown controversy, so having both versions is a nice compromise solution.

 

One thing of a nitpicky nature, however - do you have reference materials indicating that the blue in the roundels was that pale?  It almost looks French-blue in your preview pictures, whereas pretty much everything I've seen seems to have the blue of the British roundels as a much darker shade (closer to navy blue than sky blue).


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#7 FLIK60J

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 16:05

Some nice looking skins, and I feel your pain about the green vs brown controversy, so having both versions is a nice compromise solution.

 

One thing of a nitpicky nature, however - do you have reference materials indicating that the blue in the roundels was that pale?  It almost looks French-blue in your preview pictures, whereas pretty much everything I've seen seems to have the blue of the British roundels as a much darker shade (closer to navy blue than sky blue).

 

 

Thank you, Panthercules! A bit of a shot from the hip, but I tried my best.

Your remark reminds me, that I had initially planned to comment on my choice of roundels. I shall catch up on this now: When I made my first RFC skins my research on the markings brought me to this article on wikipedia. I have used the first roundel in the list for all of my RFC skins. While I am not able to extrapolate the orthochromatic effect on the photographic ressources, means, I can not know, how much of the blue tint actually was dropped by the photochemical process, I do surmise, that the roundel of the standard skins are too dark.

 

Photos of three 28 Sqn scouts, taken in Florence, supposedly at the time of the armistice, like many others, show a pretty light, almost pale blue circle of the roundels.

 

The Royal Air Force in the Italian Campaign

 

mid_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photographs mid_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photographs mid_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photographs

 

© IWM (Q 70790)

 

 

This line-up shot of 45 Sqn Camels in Italy may add fuel to the lighter/darker discussion: None of the three visible roundels are identical!

 

Attached File  036-sopwith-camel-b3925-b515-b2494-lineup-of-camels.jpg   481.11KB   0 downloads

 

Eventually I think that the roundel with the lighter blue seems closer to the historical example than those of the RoF standard skins. One day more advanced technologies to retrieve color and hue information from b/w photos may proof me utterly wrong, but until then I will abide with my offbeat versions. 

What might add to the very light appearance is my use of ReShade by Crosire. I desaturate and de-blue my game a bit.

 

Thank you for your interest, Panthercules. I hope I could explain my decision to use lighter roundels.

 

S!


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#8 HB_Pencil

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 04:14

FLIK60J, thank you for the explanation of why you think the roundels are pale blue and you make a very compelling argument, so much so that I'll be using pale blue when I skin Malcolm McGregor's SE5 (even though it's already in one of the historical skin packs).
For what it's worth here's a line up of 85sqn SE5s and, like in your photo of the 45sqn Camels, the aircraft seem to have mixture of light and dark blue fuselage and tail markings with those on the upper wing all pale.

large_000000.jpg?action=d&cat=photograph

 

Cheers,

 

HB


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#9 FLIK60J

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 15:48

FLIK60J, thank you for the explanation of why you think the roundels are pale blue and you make a very compelling argument, so much so that I'll be using pale blue when I skin Malcolm McGregor's SE5 (even though it's already in one of the historical skin packs).
For what it's worth here's a line up of 85sqn SE5s and, like in your photo of the 45sqn Camels, the aircraft seem to have mixture of light and dark blue fuselage and tail markings with those on the upper wing all pale.

large_000000.jpg?action=d&cat=photograph

 

Cheers,

 

HB

 

Hello, HB!

 

What a great line up shot that is! Nice squadron insignia. If they had flewn in Italy, I would have loved to reproduce some of those, for sure! 

And yes, the plenitude of different roundels is very, very interesting. Also, that the hexagons are all in a slightly different distance to the roundels. Very tempting to skin these!

 

I was pretty amazed in the beginning of making RFC skins, to see how randomly and sometimes even a bit sluggish the markings had been applied. I had never expected the British RFC to be so yielding to personal taste and style. I knew, that my good old Austrians had been in dire need for almost everything, which accounted for some, well, daring paint jobs applied on the frontline-level and the rugged look of quite some aeroplanes. Yet, I had never expected to see national markings, such as the roundel, be splotched on to the planes as if in haste or need on the British side. Both of which was surely not the case for the RFC (for those serving in Italy, i.e.). It’s a bit of a miracle to me.

 

Are you intending to share your McGregor SE5a skin? Or maybe just show us a screenshot? I would really like to see it.

 

Thank you for interest and the fine photograph!

S!


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#10 J2_Bidu

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 22:12

I'm inclined to think light reflection is playing a strong role here. Just compare the left and right bottom wings of the Se in the front. The left one seems the same colour as the top wing, while the right one is apparently much darker. Could the roundels seem lighter than they are? 


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#11 SeaW0lf

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 23:30

I'm inclined to think light reflection is playing a strong role here. Just compare the left and right bottom wings of the Se in the front. The left one seems the same colour as the top wing, while the right one is apparently much darker. Could the roundels seem lighter than they are? 

 

The question is the red in the center. Below you have an original restored SE5a with the original colors. I made it black and white on Photoshop. You can see that the hypothetically dark blue has to be darker than the red in the center. And the pictures above (from the OP) show the opposite. The hypothetically dark blue is way lighter than the red in the center. And the sun should play the same trick on the red and the blue, since they are on the same spot / surface.

 

I'm no scholar on the subject, but the OP makes a reasonable point. Unless these photos were edited, but I don't see why they would change the colors.

Attached Files

  • Attached File  SE5a.jpg   154.56KB   0 downloads

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"There will be honor enough for us all."

#12 HB_Pencil

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 06:43

Hello, HB!

 

What a great line up shot that is! Nice squadron insignia. If they had flewn in Italy, I would have loved to reproduce some of those, for sure! 

And yes, the plenitude of different roundels is very, very interesting. Also, that the hexagons are all in a slightly different distance to the roundels. Very tempting to skin these!

 

I was pretty amazed in the beginning of making RFC skins, to see how randomly and sometimes even a bit sluggish the markings had been applied. I had never expected the British RFC to be so yielding to personal taste and style. I knew, that my good old Austrians had been in dire need for almost everything, which accounted for some, well, daring paint jobs applied on the frontline-level and the rugged look of quite some aeroplanes. Yet, I had never expected to see national markings, such as the roundel, be splotched on to the planes as if in haste or need on the British side. Both of which was surely not the case for the RFC (for those serving in Italy, i.e.). It’s a bit of a miracle to me.

 

Are you intending to share your McGregor SE5a skin? Or maybe just show us a screenshot? I would really like to see it.

 

Thank you for interest and the fine photograph!

S!

Hi FLIK60J,

Glad you liked the photo and thanks for your response. Although I'm not new to skinning, I am new to skinning for RoF and WWI aircraft so this is all a learning experience for me and anything I pick up in threads like these is all good. I will indeed share McGregor's SE5 when I so it although I'm not sure when that will be, my plan is to skin aircraft of well known New Zealand aviators.

 

Cheers,

 

HB


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#13 US103_Baer

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:10

Hi HB,
In that case, do check out this thread https://riseofflight...ll/#entry687700

Keith 'Grid' Caldwell's famous SE5a skin made by Gooseh
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"Gathering his pilots around him on arrival he gave a pep talk, saying that they were equipped with the finest machine of all time and had three battle-experienced flight commanders. He expected every one of them to fight like hell and that it must never be said that any of them ever failed to go to the aid of a comrade, regardless of the cost, and that no patrol was ever to be late in taking off."

 

Major Keith 'Grid' Caldwell, 74 Sq


#14 J2_Bidu

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 08:49

The question is the red in the center. Below you have an original restored SE5a with the original colors. I made it black and white on Photoshop. You can see that the hypothetically dark blue has to be darker than the red in the center. And the pictures above (from the OP) show the opposite. The hypothetically dark blue is way lighter than the red in the center. And the sun should play the same trick on the red and the blue, since they are on the same spot / surface.

I'm no scholar on the subject, but the OP makes a reasonable point. Unless these photos were edited, but I don't see why they would change the colors.

Although in a rush I couldn't make the forum accept my pictures (does not accept the extensions png and jpg for some reason....?), I took 3 different snapshots of the side roundel when the SE is landing, the last of them when the sun is reflecting the strongest, and greyscaled them. The red, in the last one, becomes clearly darker than the blue to my eye. I will try to upload them later. You may also know these effects: http://brainden.com/...llusion-big.png
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#15 SeaW0lf

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 09:36

Although in a rush I couldn't make the forum accept my pictures (does not accept the extensions png and jpg for some reason....?), I took 3 different snapshots of the side roundel when the SE is landing, the last of them when the sun is reflecting the strongest, and greyscaled them. The red, in the last one, becomes clearly darker than the blue to my eye. I will try to upload them later. You may also know these effects: http://brainden.com/...llusion-big.png

 

Mine was jpeg I think. Did you use the attach files? Or the file could be to big.


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#16 hq_Reflected

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 12:35

Nice skins! I have 2 comments though:

 

1) Your PC10 green is the way to go, the "brown" is too dark and brownish compared to what I've seen in all the museums. I've also seen original WW1 fabric in PC10.

 

2) You let old photos cheat your eyes. In WWI the photo technique made blue much much lighter than it was, and red much darker. That's why they appear on original photos as they do. I also happen to have a piece of fabric from an SE5a with part of the roundel, and the colors match the ones used in WWII more or less. I'd say it's safe to go with those.

 

This is fairly accurate, note the blue is darker than the PC10:

SE5a-tail.jpg


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#17 J2_Bidu

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 21:02

So here are the images. You'll notice how on the 1st image the red part seems darker and the contrast between red and blue are much more pronounced than on the following two.

 

Py79rK8.jpg

nTsJeEU.jpg

L2FqGyB.jpg


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#18 SeaW0lf

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 22:38

So here are the images. You'll notice how on the 1st image the red part seems darker and the contrast between red and blue are much more pronounced than on the following two.

 

Sorry but it is not really convincing. You can see it is dark because of the consistency (don't know the jargon for BW photos). It is not near to what the OP shows. Not even by a mile. The middle photo is basically like the one I showed and the last one you can see the tones are pretty equal on the wings and on the fuselage and they have the consistence of a dark tone. I don't think anyone would say the outer ring is light blue in any of the photos you sampled.

 

To me they are dark through and through on the three photos (and I'm used to it).


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#19 J2_Bidu

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:20

Sorry but it is not really convincing. You can see it is dark because of the consistency (don't know the jargon for BW photos). It is not near to what the OP shows. Not even by a mile. The middle photo is basically like the one I showed and the last one you can see the tones are pretty equal on the wings and on the fuselage and they have the consistence of a dark tone. I don't think anyone would say the outer ring is light blue in any of the photos you sampled.

 

To me they are dark through and through on the three photos (and I'm used to it).

 

What I meant is how much darker the dot in the middle is compared with the outer rim. And to me, it seems clearly darker on the 1st pic and roughly the same tone on the two others.

 

But as I told you, most people wouldn't say the squares A and B below have the exact same RGB (i.e., if you print the image and cut the losanges A and B, they are exactly equal). So maybe there's more to it.

 

same-color-illusion-big.png


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#20 hq_Reflected

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:21

Guys, again, turning modern photos into B&W are totally irrelevant when you are trying to decide how dark a color should be. They used orthochromatic photography back then. Yellows appeared as almost black. Blues as very light. Check this thread:

 

http://www.theaerodr...ead.php?t=45739

 

As of 1916 roundel blue was standardized as "Ultramarine blue"

 

s-l1000.jpg

 

Also, PC10 was known to become more brownish as it faded which means more yellow-ish in a way, therefore they appeared quite dark on original WWI photos (remember, orthochromatic photos made yellow appear much darker)


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#21 J2_Bidu

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:31

Guys, again, turning modern photos into B&W are totally irrelevant when you are trying to decide how dark a color should be. They used orthochromatic photography back then. Yellows appeared as almost black. Blues as very light. Check this thread:

 

Ok, got that and the effect is extremely significant. But then it would affect all roundels on the same photo equally, right?


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#22 hq_Reflected

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:38

Ok, got that and the effect is extremely significant. But then it would affect all roundels on the same photo equally, right?

 

Yes, but then comes angle, light, and reflection. Look at the SE5a lineup. All the wing roundels are at the same angle - therefore they have the same shade. The rudders are different, but look closer. The further to the left they are deflected the darker they appear, because they are less illuminated.

 

But here's another thought: The roundels on Vintage Aviator's WWI planes, Shuttleworth's planes and the ones in Hendon are the same: matching the WWII roundel colors. Would you really assume these guys aren't expert enough to have investigated it? Haven't they seen how light it was on original photos? Of course they know all this better than you or I or anyone here, and painted their planes the way they are for a reason.


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#23 J2_Bidu

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 09:36

Yes, but then comes angle, light, and reflection. Look at the SE5a lineup. All the wing roundels are at the same angle - therefore they have the same shade. The rudders are different, but look closer. The further to the left they are deflected the darker they appear, because they are less illuminated.

But here's another thought: The roundels on Vintage Aviator's WWI planes, Shuttleworth's planes and the ones in Hendon are the same: matching the WWII roundel colors. Would you really assume these guys aren't expert enough to have investigated it? Haven't they seen how light it was on original photos? Of course they know all this better than you or I or anyone here, and painted their planes the way they are for a reason.


Right, all this makes sense to me.
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#24 SeaW0lf

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:37

Guys, again, turning modern photos into B&W are totally irrelevant when you are trying to decide how dark a color should be. They used orthochromatic photography back then. Yellows appeared as almost black. Blues as very light. Check this thread:

 

http://www.theaerodr...ead.php?t=45739

 

But then it is a technological flaw of the time. Good to know. The new photos are what they are.


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"There will be honor enough for us all."

#25 FLIK60J

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 14:28

I am amazed, how the question of the blue color in the roundel sparked an interesting discussion here! 

Well, the orthochromatic effect of course made the roundel lighter than they actually were. Yet, it also affects the blue of the tricolore on the rudder, right? This would provide a fine comparison model – but it doesn’t. While on some pictures, where angle of light and shade appear identical for both the roundel and the rudder (the color density on the processed picture should be equal then), the blues look the same, on other pictures with a similar setting, they don’t. This means, that – as has been perfectly demonstrated by J2_Bidu - we should not trust our eyes only. I have mentioned here and in my introduction of my FliK skins, that historical photographs are an inadequate source for colors and hues.

 

There is another interesting article over at theaerodrome, discussing roundels, which you can find here.

 

The RAL Ultramarine blue standard, as hq_Reflected posted, of course represents that typical shade of blue we all would instantly connect with the British roundel. What makes me hesitate to adopt this blue is the fact, that the first colour table issued by the "Reichs-Auschuß für Lieferbedingungen" dates back to 1927. And it is German, not British. It is a fine piece of fact to know, that the ultramarine blue had been officially chosen for the roundel. Thus now we know, what the intention was. At that point I have to think of a story, told by a former RAF pilot (sometimes in 1990s or so), which I read in another forum on the very same topic. In that he mentions, how amazed he was at the arrival of a group of brand new planes at the airfield, where not two of them had the same colour. Now think of the conditions way back then. No high-tech paint, no mechatronic gadgets to apply it.

 

But with all this, there is one point, that might let me eventually change the blue. And that is the pretty comprehensible argument, that it should have represented the blue on the Union Jack. I think, that all producers of replicas get to a point, were they have to make a decision. And the decision for the darker, aquamarine blue, which everybody recognizes instantly, is of course the least disputable one. And it has it’s pros, of course. I will have to look into that.

 

Thanks to all who have spent their time to contribute to this topic! And if I might see myself persuaded to change the blue, then it is only because of your vivid involvement and your arguments. This is so much fun!

 

S!  :icon_e_salute:


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#26 FLIK60J

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  • LocationSomewhere 3000 m above the ground – or near Vienna.

Posted 11 January 2018 - 15:32

Nice skins! I have 2 comments though:

 

1) Your PC10 green is the way to go, the "brown" is too dark and brownish compared to what I've seen in all the museums. I've also seen original WW1 fabric in PC10.

 

2) You let old photos cheat your eyes. In WWI the photo technique made blue much much lighter than it was, and red much darker. That's why they appear on original photos as they do. I also happen to have a piece of fabric from an SE5a with part of the roundel, and the colors match the ones used in WWII more or less. I'd say it's safe to go with those.

 

This is fairly accurate, note the blue is darker than the PC10:

SE5a-tail.jpg

 

 

Hi, hg_Reflected!

 

Thank you for your kind feedback. The brown looks darker in the previews, than in-game (at least on my pc). Plus I had a british WWI pilot’s story lingering in my mind, where he remembered his flight in the morning sun, looking like "chocolate bars". I was inclined to follow the inputs at this thread at theaerodrome. And I am a chocoholic, anyway. But as there are also many very convincing arguments for the green party, I declared neutrality an provided them as well. Cowardly me. 

 

I have mentioned, that I am aware of the orthochromatic effect on colors. But no orthochromasia can turn down an olive drab/khaki green so much, to have the aeroplanes look that dark. At least not to my believe (which means nothing, anyway).

I would be careful by using fabric samples as reliable source. I may only remind you of an Austro-Hungarian scrap of lozenge, looking pink and light blue. It became protoyped in most of the colortables and illustrations. Cross&Cockade explained in depth colours and shades – when a while ago scientific research showed, that in fact it had consisted of only shades of grey (ha ha, I know). No colours at all. But it is still being described and reproduced in the erroneous coloured version. People prefer to stick with the familiar, rather than go with the uncommon, no matter if it’s us in here, or guys at the museums or builders of replicas. 

 

Thank you for your inputs! They are greatly welcomed!

S!


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#27 FLIK60J

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 17:45

Having taken another close look on the roundel, I am stuck at this.

If I were to follow the idea, that the blue of the roundel was like the one in the tricolore, then I do not know, what I should make of this:

 

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To rule out the possibility of any optical illusion, I have colour picked and highlighted the two different hues of blue (grey, ie). The direction of light and the shade on the fuselage are similar all over the left side. The orthochromatic effect should be similar on the blue of the roundel as well as on the tricolore. But it is absolutely not. Or, to be more precise: If the effect is assumed to be equal all over the picture, why is the hue of the two blue areas, who are supposed to be of the same color, so much different?

 

To add to the confusion is the fact, that on the Camels behind this one, the blues (greys) do match.

 

Can anyone explain this huge difference on what were supposed to be markings with the same blue? Is it, because the rudders were painted at the factory, while the roundels were sometimes re-applied, when the squadron changed it’s markings and so different cans of blue paint have to be considered? Does this also account for the often cloudy look of the roundels, as opposed to the rather flat looking colours on the rudder?

 

The more I look into it, the more I think, that, while there may have been an official order to use aquamarine blue, circumstances of supply and availability may have made strict obedience to that order not always feaseable. 

 

S!

 

 

 


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#28 FLIK60J

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 17:53

One last amendment.

A group photo of 28 Sqn RFC in Italy shows the Union Jack. It is a fine indicator of how much the blue actually bleeds out in these old pictures.

 

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But that again raises a new question: If the blue of roundels and tricolore were to replicate that of the Union Jack, why was there an order issued, to use ultramarin blue? The flag uses per definition another blue.

Anyone?

 

S!


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#29 hq_Reflected

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 19:14

Perhaps back then the Union Jack's blue was the one called "ultramarine"?


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#30 McMinstrel

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 20:11

Nice conversation.

 

In my research on colors used (for my models, mainly) I came across a paint company in Spain that carries, perhaps, the most accurate WWI colors available.  Broken down into RGB they are as follows.

 

Roundel Blue: 62,67,115

Roundel Red: 171,45,56

PC 10: 76,73,68

PC 12: 80,69,66

 

Keep in mind that although guidelines were in place for pigment types and lacquer in reality the colors varied greatly.  It really depended on which manufacturer made it and what ingredients were available for the pigments. As the war continued, colors differed because of shortages.  As has been pointed out, the age of the plane also made a great difference.  Lacquer would yellow and paint would fade.

 

Just my small contribution.  Hopes it helps a little.  Although, I fear, it only adds to the confusion... :icon_e_wink:

 

~M~


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#31 FLIK60J

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 22:19

Nice conversation.

 

In my research on colors used (for my models, mainly) I came across a paint company in Spain that carries, perhaps, the most accurate WWI colors available.  Broken down into RGB they are as follows.

 

Roundel Blue: 62,67,115

Roundel Red: 171,45,56

PC 10: 76,73,68

PC 12: 80,69,66

 

Keep in mind that although guidelines were in place for pigment types and lacquer in reality the colors varied greatly.  It really depended on which manufacturer made it and what ingredients were available for the pigments. As the war continued, colors differed because of shortages.  As has been pointed out, the age of the plane also made a great difference.  Lacquer would yellow and paint would fade.

 

Just my small contribution.  Hopes it helps a little.  Although, I fear, it only adds to the confusion... :icon_e_wink:

 

~M~

 

 

Hello, McMinstrel!

This is GREAT! 

I have allowed myself to putting together a quick visualisation of the colours you posted; just for those, who might not have access to a graphic editor. I am so glad you posted this! Do you happen to know, wether the paint producer uses the original "recipe" or their own formula? Would you maybe show us some pictures of your models, to give us an idea, how they look when applied? I am curious, I know. Sorry.

 

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I am absolutely of your opinion. As I mentioned before: To have an obligatory list of ingredients does not necessarily mean, that the results may not vary. Pigments don't follow colour tables or standards. And producers can't always be choosers, especially under war conditions. 

Your blue looks really fine. Less radaint and clean like ultramarine blue, but not that light like my current roundels. I might give it a try in my roundels.

 

Thank you so much for your contribution!

S!

 


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#32 FLIK60J

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 22:22

Perhaps back then the Union Jack's blue was the one called "ultramarine"?

 

 

 

Sounds reasonable, yes. 


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#33 McMinstrel

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:24

Flik,

 

I would like to post some shots of my planes but, right now, the finished ones are in storage.  My wife finally got tired of them being all around the living room and so I am now remodeling my office with display cases for them.  The only thing that I have out right now is a couple of prewar machines that I am working on.  Winter is the time that I make turnbuckles, pulleys, and the like.  When the weather turns warm enough for me to work in the garage I'll fire up the air brushes and go back to work building.  I have around 30 done and another 200+ to do.  It's my "longevity project".  I refuse to die of old age until I finish them all.  Considering, it takes about 3 months to do each one, I figure I'll be around for a while. :icon_e_biggrin:

 

I may have a Neiuport in the garage on the work table.  If I do, I'll post some shots.

 

~M~


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#34 McMinstrel

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 01:29

Oh, on the formulas for the paints.  They are based on old color chips from the period.  Of course, like all paint, they have changed some over the years so the result is "best guess".  What first caught my eye was the fact that they have CDL colors for each nation.  They seem to be very careful about national differences.  The "Gotha Blue" is great.

 

~M~


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"If you're too busy to laugh; you're too busy."


#35 FLIK60J

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  • Posts: 41
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:32

Oh, on the formulas for the paints.  They are based on old color chips from the period.  Of course, like all paint, they have changed some over the years so the result is "best guess".  What first caught my eye was the fact that they have CDL colors for each nation.  They seem to be very careful about national differences.  The "Gotha Blue" is great.

 

~M~

 

Ah, this sounds like they are really trying to reproduce the colours as accurate as possible. That endears me even more to the idea, to use your blue and red for roundels.

 

You know, I wonder if ever someone reproduced the paint, using the original formula, from pigments to oils and all the greasy rest. While it would still be a modern reproduction, it could not fall too far from the target. I know of the issues Koloman Mayrhofer encountered, when he tried to get close-to-original paint and dope for his Oef D.III. But I would love to see a true replica of the PC10/12 paint. 

 

S!


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#36 FLIK60J

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 14:33

Hello, everybody!

 

Your invaluable feedback has brought up some facts, that were unknown to me by the time I had made the skins for the 3 RFC Camel Squadrons, which had served in Italy. Also some aspects of evaluating of the photographical sources had to be reconsidered. The synopsis of all this made a revisioning of the skins unavoidable, if I wanted to be as close to the historical models and at the the same time take your input seriously. 

The new skins are all named accordingly to my initial upload, but with the suffix of "_v2", to keep both versions in the hangar (if desired). You can find the download link in my main post.

 

I have applied the following changes:

  • The roundel was considered to be too light as for the blue. McMinstrel was so kind to share some color codes of a paint, that is based on the analysis of original colour chips. While it is still significantly lighter, then the WW2 roundel and the ones used in the Camel template, it is darker then the one from my first issue. By that it might fit to the repeated claim, that the WWI roundel was lighter, then the WWII roundel.
  • The brown version of PC10 was reviewed as too dark. Now, to avoid a too dark rendition of my brown on the huge variety of screens and screen settings, I have lightened it up. If it is still too dark for you, then your idea of the brown version of PC10 differs so much from mine, that I may not turn the slider all the way on your side, without having to jettison mine. So, it is still chocolate – milk chocolate, rather than dark chocolate. But still chocolate.
  • The contrast between the colour of the fabric parts and the wooden parts (around the pilot’s position) on those aircrafts, where the wood seemed to have been painted, is tuned down. The extra time I spent on having a close look on the sources made me think, that the colour-application was meant to be equal, rather then producing a clearly visible contrast between those parts (yet, on certain aircrafts this seems to have been intended or at least accepted). I have tried to render an impression of the same paint applied to different material, ending up with slightly different shades. 
  • The gloss on the forward parts of the fuselage is back in. The historical camels, and this goes not just for those, who were polished and neatly dressed up for a photo shooting session, but also for their daily combat outfit, were pretty glossy. Well, so be it.

Thanks to all, who have contributed to this set of skins! I hope, that this new version now meets the expectations and requirements of the majority of us wingnuts. 

 

See you in the sky!

 

Previews 28 Sqn
 

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Previews 45 Sqn
 

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Previews 66 Sqn

 

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#37 HB_Pencil

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 22:51

Neat! :icon_e_salute:


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#38 J2_Adam

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 23:15

.


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1mUlMuE.png
Hauptmann 
Jagdstaffel 2 "Boelcke"
 
xfnaaHq.jpg
 

#39 Ice_Age

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 00:41

This thread reminded me of a lot of "pain" I went through trying to get the colors just right for some that I did.  For example, I had what I believed were the RBG values of the J5 green tail, but when I put them on the plane, they just didn't look right.  I sampled pictures of modern reproductions, I sampled paintings, etc, etc, I mixed and matched to try to come up with the best compromise between all sources I could find, and in the end it always came down to judging it by the eye.  And then as soon as you release a paint, you inevitably run across a picture that you didn't see before that makes you hate the colors you ended up with!


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#40 hq_Reflected

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 09:34

I very much like your PC10, but entirely disagree with your roundels.

 

Forget about colour chips and orthocromatic photos. I give you 2 simpler reasons:

 

1) Given is a country with a blue white red flag. That same flag was used on planes in 1914 until they figured it looks too much like the german cross from afar. So they re-shaped it into a roundel. Now why on earth would they have changed the color of the blue from the one in the flag?

 

2) You're implicitly saying that the guys at Hendon, the Vintage Aviator collection, or Shuttleworth are wrong, because they consistently use the same blue which is much darker than yours. 

 

Then again, these are your skins, you are free to paint them as you see fit.


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