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SE5a three point landing


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#1 hq_Reflected

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 08:45

Is it only me who finds it impossible to do a 3 point landing in the SE?

 

I come in, break the glide path, start pulling up until I fly level at 1-2 feet. As the speed bleeds I pull back just enough to keep the plane from touching the ground, until a 3 point attitude is reached, and the plane settles on the ground. This is how I do it in real planes, in all other sims, as well as other planes in RoF.

 

In the SE, however, it doesn't work. The plane shakes and drops a wing long before I can raise the nose far enough to achieve a 3 point attitude. 

 

I find this very strange. I hope it won't be like this in FC. What do you think?


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#2 US103_Baer

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:33

Is it only me who finds it impossible to do a 3 point landing in the SE?

 

 

No :)

 

but does it matter?


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"Gathering his pilots around him on arrival he gave a pep talk, saying that they were equipped with the finest machine of all time and had three battle-experienced flight commanders. He expected every one of them to fight like hell and that it must never be said that any of them ever failed to go to the aid of a comrade, regardless of the cost, and that no patrol was ever to be late in taking off."

 

Major Keith 'Grid' Caldwell, 74 Sq


#3 hq_Reflected

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:59

No :)

 

but does it matter?

 

Yes.

 

Landing is something that happens every time you go for a flight (if all goes well), so yes, it's a very important part of the deal.


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#4 JoeCrow

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 14:41

Yes.

 

Landing is something that happens every time you go for a flight (if all goes well), so yes, it's a very important part of the deal.

 

I don't know the answer for sure but could it be that the Se5a has a tail skid instead of a tail wheel? It could be aerodynamically designed to land on 2 wheels and it all depends on the required AoA at landing speed. Perhaps the skid is just not up to a 3-pointer. I don't know...I'm just asking.

Cheers.


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#5 J2_Bidu

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 14:52

You may find a hint here: https://www.thesport...depended-on-it/
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#6 US103_Furlow

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 16:44

Have you tried to use a touch of throttle on landing?


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#7 FourSpeed

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 17:13

I think Furlow has a point here.

 

In RoF, the SE5a bleeds energy very easily, so what I suspect happens when you're in your flare at idle trying to get that 3-pt nose attitude is that it bleeds energy and drops into a stall right away, rather than start settling and descending into the 3pt touchdown as you expect. Whether that is appropriate / realistic or not is another question, but I do know some RL taildragger pilots that do add just a touch of throttle prior to touchdown.

 

A touch of throttle seems to help avoid that stall, and picks the nose up slightly (with a little bit of back stick) rather than accelerate.

 

That said, I haven't give that much thought recently to it as all my SE5a landings are usually a hybrid -- not quite a full 3pt touchdown, but not a faster approach wheel landing either, but something in between.   In that mode it lands quite nicely and easily.

 

If I get a chance, I'll revisit 3pt touchdowns in it, but I think a touch of throttle is what you'll probably need.

 

 

Regards,

:icon_e_salute:


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#8 J2_Bidu

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 17:29

On the other hand, if you need an air brake, tilting the gun will do nicely.
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#9 JoeCrow

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 19:32

There's this very brief description from the 'Vintage Aviator' (scroll down), so it could be done. It looks like the throttle is probably the answer: http://www.thevintag...ion/flying-se5a

 

He says it looks more like a doghouse than a flying machine.

:icon_lol:


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#10 J2_Bidu

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 19:39

Thanks for sharing the article, JoeCrow! It is really interesting.


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#11 hq_Reflected

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 21:32

There's this very brief description from the 'Vintage Aviator' (scroll down), so it could be done. It looks like the throttle is probably the answer: http://www.thevintag...ion/flying-se5a

 

He says it looks more like a doghouse than a flying machine.

:icon_lol:

 

Sorry, I couldn't find the answer. Should one land with some throttle open?


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#12 JoeCrow

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 21:59

Sorry, I couldn't find the answer. Should one land with some throttle open?

Apparently yes. If you try to land a 3-pointer and maintain your airspeed above the stall as he suggests, then you need a little throttle at the high AOA involved. I tried a little throttle at barely above stall speed during the flare and it touched down like a dream and rolled to a halt in just a few yards... I need a little more practice but it works.

Cheers.


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#13 Chill31

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 02:59

I don't know the answer for sure but could it be that the Se5a has a tail skid instead of a tail wheel? It could be aerodynamically designed to land on 2 wheels and it all depends on the required AoA at landing speed. Perhaps the skid is just not up to a 3-pointer. I don't know...I'm just asking.

Cheers.

It should be up for a 3 pointer.

 

One of the most important things in that article is the amount of adverse yaw he talks about encountering.  This is a trait common to all WWI designs, and a trait that is not pronounced enough in the ROF FMs.  


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#14 JoeCrow

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 17:58

It should be up for a 3 pointer.

 

One of the most important things in that article is the amount of adverse yaw he talks about encountering.  This is a trait common to all WWI designs, and a trait that is not pronounced enough in the ROF FMs.  

 

Thanks Chill.

 

Re adverse yaw: I obviously wouldn't know. How would you aerodynamically model adverse yaw for four ailerons? My computer might explode. That's why I use wingovers instead of coordinated turns.

:icon_e_salute:

Cheers.


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#15 US103_Baer

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 01:50

I thought the SE5a had quite a lot of adverse yaw modelled in RoF compared to some other types. No idea how real it is though of course.

Was actually planning to ask if anyone had managed to exploit the effect. In a turn it's quite easy to get the SE5 to flip over in the opposite direction quickly, but it usually comes with severe loss of airspeed so unless the enemy is close but still out of position you're a sitting duck till you can gather speed back.
Opposite aileron does seem to assist in wingover type turns too (a la Nieuport)
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"Gathering his pilots around him on arrival he gave a pep talk, saying that they were equipped with the finest machine of all time and had three battle-experienced flight commanders. He expected every one of them to fight like hell and that it must never be said that any of them ever failed to go to the aid of a comrade, regardless of the cost, and that no patrol was ever to be late in taking off."

 

Major Keith 'Grid' Caldwell, 74 Sq


#16 JoeCrow

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 08:07

I thought the SE5a had quite a lot of adverse yaw modelled in RoF compared to some other types. No idea how real it is though of course.

Was actually planning to ask if anyone had managed to exploit the effect. In a turn it's quite easy to get the SE5 to flip over in the opposite direction quickly, but it usually comes with severe loss of airspeed so unless the enemy is close but still out of position you're a sitting duck till you can gather speed back.
Opposite aileron does seem to assist in wingover type turns too (a la Nieuport)

 

This is a tricky question to answer because no two pilots or combats are the same and everyone makes mistakes without exception. As you point out, the problem is really airspeed and every aircraft has a 'best manoeuvring speed' which is usually a little higher than level-flight speed. With that in mind, it is sometimes wise to sacrifice a little altitude for for airspeed before entering a wingover and try to make it a habit. This is sometimes referred to as 'unloading' meaning unloading weight (via gravity) for airspeed. If you use a wingover with bank-angle of more than 60 but less than less than 90 degrees you will recover any altitude lost in the unloading as you roll out.

 

The wingover is really a reverse of direction (180-degrees) but you can roll out at 90 degrees or at any point in the turn. Or you can invert at the top (wingover-roll) or continue into a barrel-roll of 270 degrees. The change of direction depends on how and when you decide to roll out. You will quickly be able to judge the amount  of turn with practice.

 

It is very versatile and it is the basis of energy-fighting. You will enjoy the practice.

This might help in understanding the wingover: https://www.youtube....h?v=BW6pw17uPz4

 

Here you can also see the close relationship between the wingover and the full barrel-roll:https://www.youtube....h?v=S-SP7JY-qj8

 

We have gone a little off-topic. Sorry chaps.

 

Hope that helps.

Cheers.


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#17 FlyingShark

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 21:30

I have the same problem with the Nieuport 17.

 

:icon_e_salute:


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#18 US103_Baer

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 06:42

That was a great video, thanks @JoeCrow.

Got me practicing wingover rolls and normal wingovers from a much more technical perspective. Trying to line up angles and headings precisely was a harder than it looks and quickly gives an understanding of what state the aircraft is in thru the maneuvers. Our older planes run out of energy a bit quicker too

 

@FlyingShark - cmbaileytstc has lots of great videos on You Tube featuring how he takes advantage of the N17 and N11 idiosyncrasies - including this one youtu.be/vqoim1CiYVs

 

Back on topic! This video seems to show that 2 wheels is plenty with an SE5a

 


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"Gathering his pilots around him on arrival he gave a pep talk, saying that they were equipped with the finest machine of all time and had three battle-experienced flight commanders. He expected every one of them to fight like hell and that it must never be said that any of them ever failed to go to the aid of a comrade, regardless of the cost, and that no patrol was ever to be late in taking off."

 

Major Keith 'Grid' Caldwell, 74 Sq


#19 hq_Reflected

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 07:57

I've seen many videos of SE5a-s doing 2 point landings, but I find it even more difficult than 3 pointers. As soon as I touch down, the tail snaps down, increasing the AoA and the lift, and I bounce up. What is the trick?


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#20 JoeCrow

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:12

I've seen many videos of SE5a-s doing 2 point landings, but I find it even more difficult than 3 pointers. As soon as I touch down, the tail snaps down, increasing the AoA and the lift, and I bounce up. What is the trick?

 

All I can suggest is to concentrate on keeping the plane level on approach and using just the throttle to reduce altitude; until you gently flare just prior to the wheels making touchdown. That should give you the correct landing speed. If you are too high on approach close the throttle to decrease altitude instead of dropping the nose. If you are too low, add throttle to decrease the rate of descent but try to keep the plane level. If it all goes pear-shaped go-round again. It needs a little practice to get right...try touch-and-goes first.

 

It is more difficult in the N17 where you are relying on a blip-switch.

 

Hope that helps.

:icon_e_salute:


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#21 J2_Bidu

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:36

Sometimes, to bleed energy quickly on a rushed landing, I tilt the gun.
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#22 JoeCrow

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:30

Sometimes, to bleed energy quickly on a rushed landing, I tilt the gun.

 

You could do that if you are in a rush, or you could give full rudder and sideslip to reduce airspeed and altitude.


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#23 JoeCrow

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 19:28

There is one other thing that I forgot to mention and it may or may not be relevant if you are using an FFB stick.

I don't use FFB but I do use the trimwheel to trim for level-flight at landing speed as I approach. This means that I can more-or-less guarantee that the plane will not want to drop the nose at low speed unless I fall below stall speed. It also means that just a little throttle will raise the nose very slightly if I need to. In other words, I control the landing more with the throttle than the stick, apart from the flare.
Cheers.


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#24 J2_Bidu

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 17:23

I'm inclined to think light reflection is playing a strong role here. Just compare the left and right bottom wings of the Se in the front. The left one seems the same colour as the top wing, while the right one is apparently much darker. Could the roundels seem lighter than they are?
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#25 J2_Adam

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 21:45

I'm inclined to think light reflection is playing a strong role here. Just compare the left and right bottom wings of the Se in the front. The left one seems the same colour as the top wing, while the right one is apparently much darker. Could the roundels seem lighter than they are?


Bidu, perhaps you replied to the wrong post. Did you mean to reply to “Camels Over Italy”?
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#26 J2_Bidu

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 22:12

Bidu, perhaps you replied to the wrong post. Did you mean to reply to “Camels Over Italy”?

 

Don't understand the question, Adam. What makes you think I might NOT be absolutely crazy?  ;)

 

Yeah, I suppose you're right...  :huh:  :D


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