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S.E. 5a is not an Acemaker


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#1 Wykletypl

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Posted 27 May 2017 - 23:24

Well, I just tried a Quick Mission with S.E 5a. And... as much as I wanted to give it a try in a Career, now I do not. Only by the second attempt I was able to shoot down the enemy - and only because I managed to hit it's fuel tank.

 

From what I seen and felt, the Acemaker is not an Acemaker. Not in this game, at least. Why? Well, look at it's profile:

 

http://www.wwiaviati...D6864-600px.png

 

By this You would think it's not difficult to keep it fly straight without having to push on the joystick with all Your might - If anything, it's actually heavy up front, forcing You to pull. Well, You are wrong - ingame, S.E. 5a is incredibly Tail-heavy. Too heavy, in fact, making it painful to actually keep it do what You wants it to do. Even now, after all these trials in Quick Mission, my arm hurts from having to push as strong as I could, in order not to enter the stall, cause by it's tail. And don't even get me started how many times I almost stalled because of this tail.

 

Seriously, who fought this was a good idea to implement this into the game? It's a beginner's trap.


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#2 Panthercules

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 00:06

No problem flying the S.E. 5a here, but then again I have a FFB stick.  There were lots of posts a few years ago about why some planes seemed tail heavy on non-FFB sticks.  I never paid a lot of attention to them since I was not having a problem with my FFB stick, but there were a number of theoretical reasons/explanations for why this happens.  IIRC, the simple fix for it with non-FFB sticks is just to create an appropriate curve for it in the setup screens. Have you tried that yet?  The S.E. 5a is actually a fun plane to fly, so don't give up on it just because of this control setup quirk.


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#3 =HillBilly=

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 00:57

Well, I just tried a Quick Mission with S.E 5a. And... as much as I wanted to give it a try in a Career, now I do not. Only by the second attempt I was able to shoot down the enemy - and only because I managed to hit it's fuel tank.

 

From what I seen and felt, the Acemaker is not an Acemaker. Not in this game, at least. Why? Well, look at it's profile:

 

http://www.wwiaviati...D6864-600px.png

 

By this You would think it's not difficult to keep it fly straight without having to push on the joystick with all Your might - If anything, it's actually heavy up front, forcing You to pull. Well, You are wrong - ingame, S.E. 5a is incredibly Tail-heavy. Too heavy, in fact, making it painful to actually keep it do what You wants it to do. Even now, after all these trials in Quick Mission, my arm hurts from having to push as strong as I could, in order not to enter the stall, cause by it's tail. And don't even get me started how many times I almost stalled because of this tail.

 

Seriously, who fought this was a good idea to implement this into the game? It's a beginner's trap.

Why don't you trim it? The SE5a has a trim-able horizontal stabilizer in game.  


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#4 FourSpeed

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 03:27

Well, I just tried a Quick Mission with S.E 5a. And... as much as I wanted to give it a try in a Career, now I do not. Only by the second attempt I was able to shoot down the enemy - and only because I managed to hit it's fuel tank.

 

From what I seen and felt, the Acemaker is not an Acemaker. Not in this game, at least. Why? Well, look at it's profile:

 

http://www.wwiaviati...D6864-600px.png

 

By this You would think it's not difficult to keep it fly straight without having to push on the joystick with all Your might - If anything, it's actually heavy up front, forcing You to pull. Well, You are wrong - ingame, S.E. 5a is incredibly Tail-heavy. Too heavy, in fact, making it painful to actually keep it do what You wants it to do. Even now, after all these trials in Quick Mission, my arm hurts from having to push as strong as I could, in order not to enter the stall, cause by it's tail. And don't even get me started how many times I almost stalled because of this tail.

 

Seriously, who fought this was a good idea to implement this into the game? It's a beginner's trap.

 

Well, judging by Wargrounds stats for April it seems to be doing just fine against nearly everything except the Fokker DVIIF (best plane in WWI), the Fokker DVIII (which is a late 1918 plane), and the Gotha (which if crewed can be nasty against nearly anything).  Not too shabby for a 1916 design that entered service in early 1917.

 

Perhaps you should consider spending more "time in type" before writing it off as a bad aircraft...   Just a thought.

 

 

Regards,

:icon_e_salute:


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#5 Cybermat47

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 05:18

You aren't dogfighting with it, are you?
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#6 Wykletypl

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 07:13

You aren't dogfighting with it, are you?

No, I was too busy trying not to crash because of it's constant desire to go up and stall.


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#7 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 08:02

Use trim/adjustible stabiliser to adjust pitch forces.

S.E.5a is very much an ace maker because it lets you run away and live to build that 5 kills streak. Its engine can even run for very long time whle spewing oil into pilots face, and get him back to friendly lines.

Most good S.E.5 pilots give you one good burst then run away if you're not oiled, giving you choice between running a wild goise chase to make sure they won't come back, or giving them another chance if you ignore them. Annoying pests if you ask me, not at all fun to play against, but the occasional kill scored in such scenario is usually by S.E.5.a pilot.
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#8 J2_Bidu

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 13:07

It's a death trap for me, whenever I am stressed to have fun. Take your time to be smart with it.

 

Has the nice addition of the upper gun, shooting your enemies from below is a lot of fun. Just remember they may dive after you (talking to myself here...).

 

And yeah, I trim it just as I'm taking off.


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#9 Zooropa_Fly

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Posted 28 May 2017 - 13:52

The SE5.. I hate it :lol:.

 

As much as I want to like it, I just can't.

 

I wish you could remove the upper wing gun for a start.

I find it really hard to get kills in an SE5, I'm always caught between turning and booming. Happier in a Spad.

 

I have it set up as normal for near level fight in the curves, and use the stabiliser to drop the nose just before diving - this helps maintain your aim on the target at speed.

But I'm crap in it so maybe you shouldn't listen to me !!

 

:icon_e_salute:


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#10 unreasonable

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 07:02

Does this have to happen in every thread?


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#11 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 08:37

Apparently, yes. We are so over the offtopic capacity we should start exporting it to BoX forums...


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#12 J2_Bidu

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 08:48

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#13 US103_Baer

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 09:59

I find the SE5a in RoF a great plane, an excellent survivalist - an Acemaker, maybe not so much.

 

Pros

1. Its excellent for running away when i stuff up an attack

2. I can bomb stuff like Tanks and Vehicles on roads and/or take on enemy aircraft

3. Visibility is good

4. Can trim in-flight and landings are easy

 

Con

1. Personally i can't hit much with the guns. Not a good attribute for BnZ, (but its ok - see 1. above)

 

Not sure why but i find it very hard to put away other planes even from decent attack positions with the SE5a.

Recently i got a chance at an experienced RoF pilot. I came in from a high-ish 7o'clock as he strafed a train, firing 50-60 rounds at him from about 120m....nothing, didn't even notice i was there, or certainly wasn't bothered by my attempts. Tried again after a small zoom, this time from near zero-deflection..ah, this time he noticed and turned tight, i zoomed...long story short he hit my engine after a minute or so of me circling above and getting a bit of a flying lesson tbh :icon_e_salute:

I flew away and should've landed unharmed but tried to make home field and the engine died just short. 

Basically the SE5a allowed me to survive in spite of myself and i could have dis-engaged even earlier.

 

So i started recording some flights to try study where my bullets are actually going. No great insight yet, but compared with a Spad or Albie, concentration of fire seems worse with the SE. Which might be expected with that gun layout. Am trying out various convergence settings in case that makes a difference, but any tips on this most welcome

 

I've a feeling that the SE5a is a good BnZer for the everyman, but the Spad might be the real Acemaker


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#14 Zooropa_Fly

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 10:30

Does this have to happen in every thread?

 

What's happened to this thread ?


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#15 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 10:58

1. Personally i can't hit much with the guns. Not a good attribute for BnZ, (but its ok - see 1. above)

 

 

I've had the same experience, except when I'm flying perfectly straight and trimmed nose down - then these guns are murderous.


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#16 J5_Klugermann

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 11:25

I find the SE5a in RoF a great plane, an excellent survivalist - an Acemaker, maybe not so much.

 

Pros

1. Its excellent for running away when i stuff up an attack

2. I can bomb stuff like Tanks and Vehicles on roads and/or take on enemy aircraft

3. Visibility is good

4. Can trim in-flight and landings are easy

 

Con

1. Personally i can't hit much with the guns. Not a good attribute for BnZ, (but its ok - see 1. above)

 

 

So i started recording some flights to try study where my bullets are actually going. No great insight yet, but compared with a Spad or Albie, concentration of fire seems worse with the SE. Which might be expected with that gun layout. Am trying out various convergence settings in case that makes a difference, but any tips on this most welcome

 

I've a feeling that the SE5a is a good BnZer for the everyman, but the Spad might be the real Acemaker

 

 

I've had the same experience, except when I'm flying perfectly straight and trimmed nose down - then these guns are murderous.

 

Try using the iron sight on the side. You'll feel much more comfortable about your accuracy. I've found that the dark windscreen obsures the target somwhat on dives when the ground is the background.

 

As for non acemaker,  just try telling Tycoon and Winged Warrior that the Se5 is garbage.


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#17 J2_Adam

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Posted 29 May 2017 - 17:57

Winged Warrior... how does he do it?
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#18 US103_Baer

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 04:56

Try using the iron sight on the side. You'll feel much more comfortable about your accuracy. I've found that the dark windscreen obsures the target somwhat on dives when the ground is the background.


This has helped a lot, thanks. I spent some time getting used to leaning left, and trying different convergence settings and bead positions, then practising and recording. Feel a lot more comfortable and accurate.
Also got used to firing the elevated the Lewis. Used to think it was a bit of a gimmick, but managed a WG kill using it against a dfw. Cuban's new Somme map is good for practising with it too.

Thanks again.
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"Gathering his pilots around him on arrival he gave a pep talk, saying that they were equipped with the finest machine of all time and had three battle-experienced flight commanders. He expected every one of them to fight like hell and that it must never be said that any of them ever failed to go to the aid of a comrade, regardless of the cost, and that no patrol was ever to be late in taking off."

 

Major Keith 'Grid' Caldwell, 74 Sq


#19 JoeCrow

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 21:45

Aircraft are never 'tail-heavy'. What you are experiencing is really the effect of airspeed on lift. At cruise-speed the aircraft should fly reasonably level but it will show a strong tendency to 'nose-up' and climb at speeds above cruise-speed. It will also show a tendency to 'nose-down' at speeds below cruise-speed. An aircraft, left to its own devices, will always attempt to achieve cruise-speed by altering its flight attitude if there is no stick input (elevator) from the pilot. This is aerodynamics at work and it is the reason that you can trim an aircraft for level-flight at various cruise-speeds. It is all down to aerodynamics and trim. On the plus side, an aircraft correctly trimmed should be able to climb at best climb-rate 'hands-off-stick' at maximum throttle. It will also attempt to 'nose-up' in a high-speed dive in an attempt to reduce airspeed and regain cruise-speed. It all depends on trim.


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#20 Tycoon

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 06:55

Winged Warrior... how does he do it?

We actually never quite figured it out. He gave us some bull about trim and curves and whatever, but he still dodged the question. :icon_e_biggrin:


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#21 hq_Reflected

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 08:39

The SE5a is an absolute ace maker in RoF.

 

1) Tail heaviness: It's been explained 1000 times in other threads, use the search function. The neutral position of the stick in the real (and our) SE5a is slightly forward. The spring in your non-FFB stick doesn't know this and keeps pulling back (in the SE center = back)

 

2) Use the trim

 

3) It's the plane with the most surviveability. You don't become and ace by shooting down 8 planes in a mission. You become an ace by surviving them to live and fight another day, and eventually, by scoring here and there you'll have more kills than the Camel jock who shot down 16 in 5 missions then ended up a blazing wreckage near Rooselare.

 

4) It's really stable in a fast dive (and that is how you should be attacking). Try the same wih a rotary...

 

5) Do not ever...EVER try to dogfight. Always attack from above. One pass, then go back up where they can't touch you. While climbing don't let your speed drop below 70 (even 80)

 

6) If all this doesn't work because he's too good: fly away. You'll find an easier prey.

 

7) If you fly with a wingman you'll become way more effective, but I know it's not realistic in today's MP.


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#22 J2_Bidu

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:19

7) If you fly with a wingman you'll become way more effective, but I know it's not realistic in today's MP.


Good points. But this one made me curious. Why?
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#23 US103_Baer

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:40

I guess your chances of getting shot down drop by 50% :icon_e_wink:


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"Gathering his pilots around him on arrival he gave a pep talk, saying that they were equipped with the finest machine of all time and had three battle-experienced flight commanders. He expected every one of them to fight like hell and that it must never be said that any of them ever failed to go to the aid of a comrade, regardless of the cost, and that no patrol was ever to be late in taking off."

 

Major Keith 'Grid' Caldwell, 74 Sq


#24 hq_Reflected

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:58

Good points. But this one made me curious. Why?

 

Because you have 50% chance that the E/A will go after your wingman, which allows you to maneuver into position. The only thing that makes it difficult to fly the SE5a in RoF compared to other planes is that usually we fly 1v1, and it's quite easy to snipe from a very long distance. So you have to be extremely disciplined and patient to achieve success. With more of you flying around you'll have more freedom.


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#25 J2_Bidu

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 14:54

Sorry, I meant why is it unrealistic?
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#26 Panthercules

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 14:57

Sorry, I meant why is it unrealistic?

 

I'm pretty sure he meant "unlikely", as in "unrealistic to expect it to happen much" in today's MP environment, not that it is unrealistic when it actually happens.


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#27 hq_Reflected

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 15:15

Yes, precisely. It's not a realistic expectation. Today in MP you usually end up alone over a huge map looking for a single Hun doing the same on the other side. No more 4v4 furballs I'm afraid.


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#28 J2_Bidu

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 15:35

Most times I fly it's with a mate.

Maybe you need to find some company ;)

But yeah I know what you mean.
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#29 =VS=_emely

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 15:44

I've had the same experience, except when I'm flying perfectly straight and trimmed nose down - then these guns are murderous.

Probably for this reason, you often use it as a bomber, and not as a fighter :-)
One victory on SeVa, there is a minimum of three on FD7F, and maybe more. If the flight is not on FiF, I sometimes prefer not to run away on this plane, but still dance in bends, it's very interesting, although they are often knocked down. If you compare SeVa and FD7F, then this will be: SeVa, as a live girl with emotions, and FD7F - an inflatable doll from a sex store, but she never argues with you ;-)
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#30 US103_Furlow

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 16:41

I find it more difficult to get one pass kills in the SE5a then in a SPAD.  Might just need more seat time in it.


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#31 US103_Baer

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 00:00

If you compare SeVa and FD7F, then this will be: SeVa, as a live girl with emotions, and FD7F - an inflatable doll from a sex store, but she never argues with you ;-)


My vote for Forum Quote Of The Year 2017!
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"Gathering his pilots around him on arrival he gave a pep talk, saying that they were equipped with the finest machine of all time and had three battle-experienced flight commanders. He expected every one of them to fight like hell and that it must never be said that any of them ever failed to go to the aid of a comrade, regardless of the cost, and that no patrol was ever to be late in taking off."

 

Major Keith 'Grid' Caldwell, 74 Sq


#32 JoeCrow

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 04:50

I find it more difficult to get one pass kills in the SE5a then in a SPAD.  Might just need more seat time in it.

Try not be too keen to get a one-pass kill in the Se5a. To do that you need a long shooting window and that is going to cost you airspeed and energy in the process. You can pretty much guarantee that if you get in some hits on the first pass then you will win the fight unless you make the mistake of getting involved in a turn-fight. You're first priority should be to get back into position above the enemy (unless you are flying hit-and-run).

 

The EA is going to be turning defensively after receiving a dose of bullets, so use your excess of energy to turn high-and-wide (lag-pursuit) in the same direction as the EA. Keeping him in view and positioned off your wingtip as you climb and turn above him (zoom assisted) is ideal. This will put you well-positioned to roll back down inside his turn for a second pass on a weakened EA (the high yo-yo). If you miss the second pass you will still have the energy advantage and the EA will still be defensive. In other words, you are still in charge of the fight. OTOH, if the EA makes an unexpected move or attempts to go nose-to-nose you still have the time, height and energy advantage to counter or dive away. Whatever he does he will probably be nose-high and short on energy. This will give you a considerable speed advantage if you decide to break off.

 

We all have to make judgements sometimes so nothing is written in stone.

Cheers.


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#33 US103_Furlow

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 21:40

Try not be too keen to get a one-pass kill in the Se5a. To do that you need a long shooting window and that is going to cost you airspeed and energy in the process. You can pretty much guarantee that if you get in some hits on the first pass then you will win the fight unless you make the mistake of getting involved in a turn-fight. You're first priority should be to get back into position above the enemy (unless you are flying hit-and-run).

 

The EA is going to be turning defensively after receiving a dose of bullets, so use your excess of energy to turn high-and-wide (lag-pursuit) in the same direction as the EA. Keeping him in view and positioned off your wingtip as you climb and turn above him (zoom assisted) is ideal. This will put you well-positioned to roll back down inside his turn for a second pass on a weakened EA (the high yo-yo). If you miss the second pass you will still have the energy advantage and the EA will still be defensive. In other words, you are still in charge of the fight. OTOH, if the EA makes an unexpected move or attempts to go nose-to-nose you still have the time, height and energy advantage to counter or dive away. Whatever he does he will probably be nose-high and short on energy. This will give you a considerable speed advantage if you decide to break off.

 

We all have to make judgements sometimes so nothing is written in stone.

Cheers.

Most of the time I'm flying alone and I assume I'm locally outnumbered against pilots I assume are better dogfighters than me which means I have to commit to ambush hit and run tactics especially against DVIIF's (I'm extremely timid when those are around, but that is mostly due to J2_Adam's school of hard knocks).  Plus when I'm alone a prolonged engagement simply isn't worth the loss in situational awareness especially over enemy territory.  That being said I do get too hard up for one pass kills at times when I don't need to and I definitely need to work on the above.


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 Dear chaps, I'm time warping to 1940, see you over the English channel. Salute!


#34 =VS=_emely

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 02:16

Everything is simple and complex: you have to be taller and faster, and still get in the target :-)

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#35 J2_Bidu

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 14:09

Nice, Emely.


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#36 =VS=_emely

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 17:58

Nice, Emely.


Thank you)) But I must admit - the cases of victories on SeVa, I have quite rare. In this video, the conditions for the attack were good: both the height and the absence of other opponents. The Fokker pilot made mistakes, and I almost did not make mistakes, but it does not always happen ;-)
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#37 JoeCrow

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 09:10

Most of the time I'm flying alone and I assume I'm locally outnumbered against pilots I assume are better dogfighters than me which means I have to commit to ambush hit and run tactics especially against DVIIF's (I'm extremely timid when those are around, but that is mostly due to J2_Adam's school of hard knocks).  Plus when I'm alone a prolonged engagement simply isn't worth the loss in situational awareness especially over enemy territory.  That being said I do get too hard up for one pass kills at times when I don't need to and I definitely need to work on the above.

Exactly.

I will usually limit the number of passes to two, sometimes one, but it always depends on the situation.  With the yo-yo, two passes are fairly safe because you remain at high-speed and retain the energy advantage throughout. This would make you a very tough target. If it gets messy I break off and think again.

Cheers.


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#38 US103_Furlow

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 04:47

I'm using 150 meter convergence; should I set it closer?


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#39 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 08:47

150 Meter convergence mens at 300 meters bullets are further apart than gun barrels are. My accuracy in S.E.5 jumped when I set it to 500m (just shoot straight). May just be me.


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#40 J2_Bidu

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:42

I'm using 150 meter convergence; should I set it closer?


I think that's what I have. An advice: choose something different. :-P
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