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1.010 Update full change list


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#41 =IRFC=Comet

=IRFC=Comet
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Posted 25 December 2009 - 11:28

Good stuff neoqb, I especially like the prop damage, should add a bit more realism to the way we fly, avoiding ramming aircraft and flying parts, etc., also like the DVIII, sweet plane.

Peace On Earth, Good Will Towards Men (and women of course).

Merry Christmas to you and yours.
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#42 SsSsSsSsSnake

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 21:34

thanks for the continued support :D
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#43 Seany

Seany
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Posted 01 January 2010 - 17:53

Thanks for the great patch. But can we please have one simple option? Refresh Rate. In game option or some .ini I don't care but please, 60hz is horrible. My monitor is capable of 120hz!!
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#44 hq_Reflected

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 14:56

6. STATISTICS: Multiplayer awards (trophies for different planes) will now work correctly.

Well, according to the Statistics menu I have scored over 120 kills online. Still I haven't recieved any trophies apart from the winged crown, and the letter from Mary. How many planed do you need to shoot down in order to get one of those plane parts? I1m surprised 120 isn't enough :?
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#45 shute49

shute49
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 12:45

Will you guys, help us with Win 7? please email me shut49@rcn.com. Should I keep it on my HD, or should I Delete it?
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#46 J.j.

J.j.
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Posted 10 February 2010 - 14:06

I'll add this to the changelog:

NEW/IMPROVED FEATURES:

11. MAIN: new "OUT OF MEMORY" error in most game modes, especially multiplayer one.
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#47 =IRFC=AirBiscuit

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 14:13

J.j., these errors only exist on your system. You're doing something wrong. You're the only one getting them.


(Not really, but this is the boilerplate bullsh!t I hear every time I describe any game errors I have. I'm just saving someone else the work of replying to you.)
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#48 taleks2

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 14:49

(Not really, but this is the boilerplate bullsh!t I hear every time I describe any game errors I have. I'm just saving someone else the work of replying to you.)
Irony is just prelude to sarcasm ©

BTW: out of memory error is really out of memory error.
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#49 =IRFC=AirBiscuit

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 15:26

BTW: out of memory error is really out of memory error.

Oh, I don't doubt that the error is telling the truth. But since I have 4GB of RAM, a 1GB video card, and settings.exe estimates texture memory usage at 63%, that means there's a memory leak somewhere.
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#50 Fuby

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 16:19

wierd things happen..
I never get an out of memory in RoF, but often get one in FSX when I add textures in..
their(FSX) OUT OF MEMORY error suggests lowering settings.. and usually works.

for sake of argument, maybe lowering all settings for awhile will explain the issue jay?
justa thought.. this does not mean the software does not have a leak..
just wondering how to solve the problems till they do.
I visually see little difference from some things set from high to medium.
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#51 =IRFC=AirBiscuit

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 16:29

Thanks Fuby. Last night, per mols' recommendation, I dropped landscape and textures to medium. I personally notice a significant difference in visual quality, and while I was able to play 4 missions in a row, I still eventually did crash (rof.exe error, not OUTOFMEMORY). :/
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#52 taleks2

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 17:00

Oh, I don't doubt that the error is telling the truth. But since I have 4GB of RAM, a 1GB video card, and settings.exe estimates texture memory usage at 63%, that means there's a memory leak somewhere.
I don't think so. © Lord Rayden.

That is why leak is unlikely is reason:
1. RoF uses less then 2Gb of memory. There was discussion why and you've probably read official statement related to it. i don't think it was good decision to maintain 32 bit process limitation, but that is how it is now.
2. Video memory is not directly related to "out of memory error". RAM hit is much more important, than hit on VRAM. IMHO, it's rather difficult to get VRAM related problem. BTW: to keep VRAM RoF uses DXT compressed textures instead of other formats. VRAM management is DirectX/drivers task, they loads textures and so on, not always in process address space.
3. One type of model+texture (not instance of model) requires something about 30-80 Mb. Each instance adds some kilobytes. Sound pack requires something like 150 Mb, don't forget landscape related data (although it is chunked, it is huge mempool still). Game needs much memory. I'm really surprised it still can work in 2Gb somehow. It's miracle.
4. RoF uses memory tracking mechanism, leaks are detected earlier than you get public versions (and there are no any engine leaks for quite long time, although there are memory access errors). However, there is also memory fragmentation problem, that can't be solved sometimes (it's solved for RoF internal structures, but can not be solved for every system object, cause e.g. DirectX can't be instructed to use user-defined heap functions and etc), it is real culprit for many problems.

What are possible solutions:
1. Use lesser map details => lesser landscape/forests/etc memory demands. Well, it's possible and you will see it somewhere in hazy future.
2. Use lesser models/skins => mods off is already here and I bet - not just for historical accuracy of skins. However, amount of aircrafts is increasing, thus this trick'll not work later.
3. Use 64 bit address space (the only one possible and reliable solution)

IMHO, there are no any other possible variants.
I guess, you'll choose 3rd solution, however it'll give problems for users of 32 bit Windows and most of players are using such versions.
I don't think you're agree with 1) or 2) for any game mode, except probably dogfight/qmb.

So, what would you do if you have no leaks (well, there is still small probability that RoF have it, but it is really small), have no enough RAM, an can't force 64bit memory heaven? IMHO, It seems like dead-end.

PS:
As for most of crashes - it's undoubtedly bugs. However, I doubt they are related to lack of free memory.
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#53 =IRFC=AirBiscuit

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 17:32

2. Video memory is not directly related to "out of memory error". RAM hit is much more important, than hit on VRAM. IMHO, it's rather difficult to get VRAM related problem. BTW: to keep VRAM RoF uses DXT compressed textures instead of other formats. VRAM management is DirectX/drivers task, they loads textures and so on, not always in process address space.

Why would textures be tying up RAM in the first place? Shouldn't the DirectX, or the game engine, simply upload them to the video card when they are first needed? Any temporary memory required to load them should immediately be freed, no? Or are they cached in RAM by DirectX and uploaded on-demand to the card by ..whatever the DirectX equivalent of glBindTexture() is?

3. One type of model+texture (not instance of model) requires something about 30-80 Mb. Each instance adds some kilobytes. Sound pack requires something like 150 Mb, don't forget landscape related data (although it is chunked, it is huge mempool still). Game needs much memory. I'm really surprised it still can work in 2Gb somehow. It's miracle.

Those figures all sound reasonable, given the complexity of most objects (certainly the aircraft and other animated models). Regarding the landscape mesh setting; this should only impact video memory usage, right? I would assume that the same mesh is loaded into RAM for collision detection no matter what. But a more complex mesh might be uploaded to the video card as VBO based on this setting, right? In other words, the "mesh quality" setting should not impact RAM usage to any measurable extent, no?

4. RoF uses memory tracking mechanism, leaks are detected earlier than you get public versions (and there are no any engine leaks for quite long time, although there are memory access errors). However, there is also memory fragmentation problem, that can't be solved sometimes (it's solved for RoF internal structures, but can not be solved for every system object, cause e.g. DirectX can't be instructed to use user-defined heap functions and etc), it is real culprit for many problems.

Good to know, thanks!

What are possible solutions:
1. Use lesser map details => lesser landscape/forests/etc memory demands. Well, it's possible and you will see it somewhere in hazy future.
2. Use lesser models/skins => mods off is already here and I bet - not just for historical accuracy of skins. However, amount of aircrafts is increasing, thus this trick'll not work later.
3. Use 64 bit address space (the only one possible and reliable solution)

IMHO, there are no any other possible variants.
I guess, you'll choose 3rd solution, however it'll give problems for users of 32 bit Windows and most of players are using such versions.
I don't think you're agree with 1) or 2) for any game mode, except probably dogfight/qmb.

So, what would you do if you have no leaks (well, there is still small probability that RoF have it, but it is really small), have no enough RAM, an can't force 64bit memory heaven? IMHO, It seems like dead-end.

PS:
As for most of crashes - it's undoubtedly bugs. However, I doubt they are related to lack of free memory.

Yea, 64 bit sounds like easily the best option – I really hope they produce a 64 bit build soon.

Thank you for your post. It's nice to hear some technical information about this game every so often. In fact, I would love it if the Developers Blog contained a lot more stuff like this.

Cheers,
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#54 J.j.

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 20:12

Indeed, clear post. But I'm a bit disappointed, because if I've understood correctly, only way to get rid of the outofmermory error will be waiting for a game designed for 64bit use.
And, after neoqb last says, this will not happen tomorrow.
So, in the meantime, what I'm supposed to do? Play freesbe with ROF DVD?
(of course, I precise, even lowering sound and landscape to minimal quality haven't worked to get rid of out of memory error.
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#55 =IRFC=AirBiscuit

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 20:19

Which is honestly very stupid. It doesn't take a lot of effort to release 32 bit and 64 bit binaries of the game. As long as the code is all 64 bit clean, you simply recompile it on a 64 bit environment. I mean, seriously, WTF.
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#56 MattM

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 20:47

Setting the LAA-Flag alone would fix this for 64bit users, that takes 10 seconds. This cannot be done right now, because ROF thinks you're trying to crack the ROF.exe. :roll:

Every other game that i own and has been released in 2009 or later has this flag set, ROF is the only game that doesn't use this for reasons that are not understandable at all and frankly make no sense.

I'm glad i don't have these out-of-memory errors myself. Wouldn't see me supporting this game anymore, if i had those.
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#57 taleks2

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 03:40

Why would textures be tying up RAM in the first place?
Actually, "out of memory" is not texture related problem. Textures go to DirectX management practically without stopping in RAM (if format is not e.g. something like tga, which is not supported by DirectX and must be decoded). There are some details related to reading from packages and DirectX requirements for providing pointers to memory (MMF are commonly used in fact in such situation), which may hit RAM, but it is constant-size memory pool.

Memory is used by landscape (and related objects), collision models and etc. It's impossible to push it to VRAM while keeping all requirements to precision and functionality. Although it is possible to implement some functionality on GPU as shown in some demos, but it'll not be full-fledged software.

BTW: textures in RoF may be loaded on demand and pre-loaded asynchronously (since 1.009, if I'm correct about exact public version). Asynchronous loading of textures cured some stutters when approaching enemy planes. Now, I bet, most of stutters/freezes are not related to texture loading, only to model data loading.

Regarding the landscape mesh setting; this should only impact video memory usage, right?
I would assume that the same mesh is loaded into RAM for collision detection no matter what. But a more complex mesh might be uploaded to the video card as VBO based on this setting, right? In other words, the "mesh quality" setting should not impact RAM usage to any measurable extent, no?
Well, I can't answer this question as I have no much details in this area of game engine.
AFAIK, you're correct. Additionally, there are tricks with textures and VBO may be compressed, which requires decompression and some constant memory for storage.

By the way, "out of memory" error may be caused sometimes if dlls are injected to address space of game, because it leads to additional fragmentation of heap.

Yea, 64 bit sounds like easily the best option – I really hope they produce a 64 bit build soon.
Well, everybody hopes.

As for large address space flag, I don't know reasons for absence of that option, except official.
There are may be problems with 3rd party libraries also (they must be compiled with LA flag also, but not all of them are provided with sources), however I'm not sure.
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