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Camel Left Spin Recovery Clarified


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#1 Arty_Effem

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 12:58

It's regrettable not to say tedious that we had to do this, but falsehoods cannot be allowed to go unchallenged. Consequently I had to ask a close associate to throw-together a demonstration video to settle matters. The points being made should be perfectly clear, but for the benefit of professional misinterpreters they are:

1) The need for up elevator to recover spins on some aircraft, invalidates the claim that RoF is a true/authentic flight simulation.

2) The Camel does not require a rocking action of the stick during left hand spin recovery.

No other claims are being made.

 

 


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#2 =HillBilly=

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 13:29

LOL LOL LOL LOL   Now make a video of the same thing on Wargrounds.  


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#3 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 13:32

Tread carefully, everyone.

 

flamebait_v3.jpg

It's regrettable not to say tedious that we had to do this, 

 

Agreed.

 

but falsehoods cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

 

They can. All it takes is to not hit the "post" button. 

 

Consequently I had to ask a close associate to throw-together a demonstration video to settle matters.

 

So, is it about truth ot "settling matters"?

 


No other claims are being made.

 

 

Does that mean I can lock this before someone swallows the bait?


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#4 Arty_Effem

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 15:55

LOL LOL LOL LOL   Now make a video of the same thing on Wargrounds.  

 

I would ask you to clarify exactly what it is that you're implying, however I fear that it would include yet another slander, so I shall not.


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#5 Arty_Effem

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 16:01

They can. All it takes is to not hit the "post" button.

 

I find that policy difficult to reconcile in any open forum.

 

 

 

So, is it about truth ot "settling matters"?

 

I should say both, and nothing bad about either.

 

 

 

 

Does that mean I can lock this before someone swallows the bait?

 

 

All things considered, I think that's a decision best left to your successor.


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#6 =HillBilly=

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 16:29

I would ask you to clarify exactly what it is that you're implying, however I fear that it would include yet another slander, so I shall not.

I'm just saying make a video on wargrounds,( where everyone knows what the game settings are).

While you are at it you can remake all of Requiem's training videos,because he is completely wrong. :huh:   


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#7 Arty_Effem

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 17:25

I'm just saying make a video on wargrounds,( where everyone knows what the game settings are).

While you are at it you can remake all of Requiem's training videos,because he is completely wrong. :huh:   

 

It's shameful that this should have to be said (and not for the first time) but as with any demonstration from that source, no assisting settings were used and indeed had they been, would have impaired the necessary control movements.  As mentioned, the simple instruments had to be used to prove fuel load, because the cockpit fuel level indicator isn't always clearly visible. Even were we to indulge your request, it's likely you would accuse us of hosting the WG map under different settings.

 

I you really are convinced that demonstration isn't genuine, why don't you prove it to yourself and then to the rest of us? Of course you won't be able to use NW servers, given that's one of the server groups in which you are persona non grata.


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#8 ZachariasX

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 18:10

Arty, there is zero, I mean none, 0, sims out there with "correct" post stall bevaviour. What you accuse RoF of not delivering is not even delivered with big full motion sims. Relax. RoF still holds the crown for WWI combat sims, and for good reason.
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#9 captain_awesome

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 20:52

 is not even delivered with big full motion sims.

actually the real full motions sim's do correctly model stalls, ect and the appropriate recovery ect.


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#10 Plank

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 23:27

I am pretty sure I have rocked my stick quite a few times to get my Camel out of stall.

 

(and they had to use a crow bar back at the AF to pry my fingers off the controls...)

 

and for once in my life there is an occasion where I have to stop leaning on holding down the ashtray.

 

"Oh dash it all, Said Plank.

She's gone into a spin nose down to the left and I need to rock the stick back and forth.

Sorry ash tray, old friend,  I will have to let you go for a bit.

Back in a tick...oh and cross your fingers... He winked at the ash tray and then frightfully worried about the, um, er,  to the blurry wheeling landscape went about upsetting the spin stall and trying to level out before... well. we don't really like to think what happens next.... but it's pancake time and no kitchen is involved..."

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#11 Cybermat47

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 11:12

All things considered, I think that's a decision best left to your successor.

 

Arty, I have found your behaviour on this forum to be inflammatory, rude, downright disrespectful, and overall just annoying.


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#12 =HillBilly=

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 14:01

Arty in your,(your associate's) video you said you were going to make a video to disclaim or to verify "gyroscopic  precision" exist in ROF.

Have you or your "associate" made up your mind on which way to go with that?


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#13 Arty_Effem

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 15:04

Arty in your,(your associate's) video you said you were going to make a video to disclaim or to verify "gyroscopic  precision" exist in ROF.

Have you or your "associate" made up your mind on which way to go with that?

 

It was actually made ages ago, but it's on ice until the topic arises from another source.


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#14 Arty_Effem

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 02:19

Arty, I have found your behaviour on this forum to be inflammatory, rude, downright disrespectful, and overall just annoying.

 

I am most obliged for your feedback; periodic validation from one's peers is always encouraging.

 

N.B. If your post was not meant as a compliment, may I suggest that you try Google Groups; where soon you will learn the real meaning of the adjectives you used.


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#15 Arty_Effem

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 02:22

1) The need for up elevator to recover spins on some aircraft, invalidates the claim that RoF is a true/authentic flight simulation.

2) The Camel does not require a rocking action of the stick during left hand spin recovery.

No other claims are being made.

 

Following extensive testing, we consider it important to supplement what has been claimed thus far. The Camel may not have been the best example to use, because along with the other Sopwith rotaries, it is not correct to imply that they need up elevator for spin recovery, only that up elevator is perhaps the most efficient method, when in reality it certainly should not be.

With the engine at full power, the Camel's left spin can be recovered simply by moving the stick to the left; the elevator can be in any position and even rudder deflection is not essential.

With these facts established, it suggests that the 'rocking motion' myth arose from someone trying that action, getting the desired result and passing it on.

For anyone wishing to verify the above, the simplest method would be to enter the Quick Mission editor and set-up a skirmish mission at 2000m or more, with zero opponents.


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#16 =HillBilly=

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 02:44

I have got to hand it to you Arty, for a Christmas goose has nothing on you.


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#17 Plank

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 03:17

Gents:

 

Might I add an word or three in edge ways...

 

The rocking the stick fore and aft is to get the air craft into an nose down attitude.

If you aircraft is already in this position then, it is not necessary.

 

The reasoning behind this is that in a really bad flat spin bothering the controls will generally do very little.

(you are in a flat spin with loss of control authority due to turbulence etc)

You have to break it out of that flat spin into a steep spin THEN apply your spin drill.

 

It is a sequence: Get out of flat spin, then get out of steep spin.

 

So it's very possible that you are rocking your stick when it is A) unnecessary B ) not all you need to do

and C) The Camel may SELF CORRECT in certain circumstances with no stick input.

 

Sometimes when in a Camel spin you need do nothing but wait, calmly light a cigarette and hope you do not

run out of air before she rights herself. 

 

So the bottom line is this:

 

When you definitely are in a deadly flat spin, (nose in, tail out.)

rock the stick fore and aft to upset the flat spin into a steep spin.

then apply spin drill.

 

This may or may not be instantiated in R.o.F 100% correctly but I like to do it anyway as it the correct course of action. 

( I watched a Navy flying movie on what to do to avoid becoming a statistic...)

 

oh and noodling along in your Camel and then prodding it into a spin is not really testing the issue.

 

You need  two no three things to really test it's metal:

 

Blood on your goggles, a deafening roaring sound and a slightly mangled Dr1 firmly stuck on your tail shooting at you.

 

If you are missing any of these you are not really flying your Camel.

 

THEN test your spin drill...  and rocking the stick etc.

 

 

They had to replace my Camel stick as I was wearing it out from gripping it too hard. ( Panic induced vice like grip..)

 

 

 

So, that's my little lecture on that sort of thing. Hope it helps out someone, somewhere, sometime...

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#18 Arty_Effem

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 09:59

Gents:

 

Might I add an word or three in edge ways...

 

The rocking the stick fore and aft is to get the air craft into an nose down attitude.

If you aircraft is already in this position then, it is not necessary.

 

The reasoning behind this is that in a really bad flat spin bothering the controls will generally do very little.

(you are in a flat spin with loss of control authority due to turbulence etc)

You have to break it out of that flat spin into a steep spin THEN apply your spin drill.

 

 

Yes that's all fine, but do you have any video of a RoF Camel in a flat spin? Unless I've missed something, the RoF Camel has only one (upright) spin attitude in its repertoire and it isn't flat.


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#19 Plank

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 12:05

Hmm, I am pretty sure I have flat spun a Camel.

 

Try diving, then throw a very optimistic lefthand barrel roll with much too much elevator, that might inspire one...

( You will need quite a bit of altitude and be reckless as all get out... )

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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Captured again!

 


#20 Plank

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 13:38

Actually it's sort of a flat spin.

 

It's sort of lumpy and not very flat but if you rock the stick you can get the nose down a bit and it will sort of pull out of it's own accord.

 

The difference is the steepness, for a flat spin it is quite steep.

Good fun though.

 

I did black out a few times and ripped the old wings off,erm, a few times... lawn darts?

 

There is a spot in the spin where it is trying to get out, this is the bit you keep your eye on.

After a few rotations it becomes quite pronounced and a bit of blipping can be quite fun to

play with it. ( Keep an eye on the altitude. )

 

If you blow your engine you can't seem to get out of it. when going left, you need the torque reaction 

to counter the spin and then you're out... or so it looks.

 

I was starting off at 6000m and then plummeting down so you get a good long time to fiddle with things

before it's expedient to get it wrapped up... or it's a sticky end.

 

The Camel can be jolly good fun when you are not getting shredded by Spannies...

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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Captured again!

 


#21 Arty_Effem

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 14:58


The difference is the steepness, for a flat spin it is quite steep.

 

Don't understand that.

 

 

 

If you blow your engine you can't seem to get out of it. when going left, you need the torque reaction 

to counter the spin and then you're out... or so it looks.

 

 

A viable engine-off procedure for both directions is: Stick back and into the spin then fully forward; no rudder.


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#22 Plank

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 00:46

Ahem.

 

What I mean is that from your cockpit in your Camel it is not that easy to spot a flat spin.

 

Essentially it's the attitude of the plane in the spin,

if your nose is close to the horizon you are in a flat spin

and if your nose is pointing much lower then you are in a steep spin.

 

try this:

 

https://www.av8n.com...#tab-spin-modes

 

 

Salute!

 

plank.


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Captured again!

 


#23 ZachariasX

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 15:16

Most revover the spin by reaching the ground anyway. So, why bother too much...


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#24 Arty_Effem

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 17:03

Most recover the spin by reaching the ground anyway. So, why bother too much...

 

It's a serious inconvenience to the farmers who have to fill-in the holes.


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#25 FourSpeed

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 17:07

It's a serious inconvenience to the farmers who have to fill-in the holes.

 

War is Hell...    :D


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#26 unreasonable

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Posted 10 October 2016 - 12:19

Since the Camel has reared it's ugly head again, this article might be worth a read if you have not already sen it - some fairly recent testing of a Camel measuring various things. (But not how to get out of a flat spin, unsurprisingly).

 

http://www.flyingmag...d-sopwith-camel


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#27 Cybermat47

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 13:37

2011_Trampeltier_1528.JPG

This thing doesn't have elevators or sticks, what are you lot on about?
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#28 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 13:54

2011_Trampeltier_1528.JPG

This thing doesn't have elevators or sticks, what are you lot on about?

 

Feed it some castor oil and you'll see for yourself  :icon_eek: .


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#29 J2_Marx

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 15:21

Yes, they have wings :icon_e_biggrin:

 

funny-camel-balancing-people-sitting-pic


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#30 Captain_Flashman

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Posted 16 October 2016 - 17:51

On searching for information about recovering Camel spins I came across this interview with Tommy Sopwith, at about 23:10 he talks about the Camel

and there is brief vintage footage of spinning Camels.

 

In his own words;

 

 


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