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First time post, Rudder question

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#1 sunjunkiesi

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 08:03

Morning all


I am a newbie to RoF and to the combat sim genre, but by no means new to Flight sim.  I am enjoying RoF immensely so far.  I've been playing for several days and so far haven't managed to shoot a single plane down, but I will get there I am sure.  Requiems videos, Liberators guides, and the myriad of other helps out there are very much appreciated, being a bit of a "fly by the book" type.


As I say, my flight sim history is pretty intense, many hundreds of hours on FSX, and I use saitek x55 and ch pedals.  My question is regarding rudder control.  I bought the pedals some time ago to really concentrate on getting the rudder "right" in fsx.  My understanding is that many RL pilots never really get it right, so I don't beat myself up too much, but in RoF the rudder control appears to be counter to acquired modern knowledge - ie rudder in to the turn, roll to pitch required, release the rudder and the roll, and the plane should carry on turning.  In RoF, releasing the rudder causes a serious pitch upwards, followed by a very slow turn and a huge loss of airspeed.


Is this a characteristic of the era?  Were these old planes totally dependant on the rudder to turn, or is the FM wrong here - or indeed am I doing something wrong in the turn as compared to modern aircraft.  Even worse, have I been getting it wrong in FSX and not realised?


Thanks in advance for any help  anyone can offer me - I can't help but think that if I could get my turns properly coordinated whilst energy fighting, things might start to come easier for me in the old BnZ tactics...



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#2 FourSpeed

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 21:24

Hi sunjunkiesi,


There are a bunch of factors at work here.


In modern planes, the standard technique is, begin with aileron to start your bank, and add in rudder to keep the turn co-ordinated, and finally, add a little bit of back pressure to keep the nose on the horizon (compensating for a slight loss of lift due to the bank). Once you reach the bank angle you want, you can center the ailerons and rudder (mostly) and the plane will continue the bank until you correct it (or until it gradually corrects itself).


It works that way because modern planes are inherently a LOT more stable (in all axes) than these WWI kites were.


Of course, once proficient, the modern pilot will usually apply all three of those controls smoothly and simultaneously to produce a nice, proper coordinated turn, but early on it starts in aileron, rudder, and elevator order (or at least it did when I was doing RL flight training).


In RoF, not so much. The planes have varying levels of instability, varying rudder effectiveness, and varying amounts of adverse yaw, depending on which plane you're flying. In the Gotha's case, for instance, adverse yaw is so severe you have to taxi with ailerons, because the rudder is completely ineffective at low speeds.


Additionally, using a typical spring-loaded joystick, you will find that ALL of the RoF planes are tail heavy -- some, extremely so.  A few have elevator trim, but most do not, so most of them simply will not fly well hands-off (unless you start playing around with response curves). 


You'll also find that RoF planes need a lot more rudder (in general) than FSX planes, and in some cases, they may even need opposite rudder than what you'd expect in planes where gyroscopic torque effects are strong due to rotary engines (ie. Camel is a poster child for that).


So, as you're finding, these birds handle a lot differently than what you're used to.  You may find that doing turns in rudder, aileron and elevator order will work better for you (rudder first will help keep the nose from popping up on you) than the conventional and modern way. Also, keep in mind that these planes are definitely hands-on while flying - you *always* need to be actively flying the plane, and finally, as in FSX, more "time-in-type" leads to more proficiency in type as well.  Pick an initial plane (the Albatros DVa is a very good one to start with) and fly it until it becomes natural.


Welcome to RoF. Have Fun, and if you have questions, feel free to ask -- most folks in here are pretty friendly, most of the time.  :)




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