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Nieuport 11 - Sharp, Vertical Turns


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#1 marshce

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 04:04

I've returned to the world of World War I aviation simulators after many, many years away. Previously, I always played them more like arcade games with realism settings adjusted to give me a balance between "fun" and "realism". However, this time I wanted to really learn how to fly and control these wonderful planes, so I downloaded as many contemporary books as I could and have been reading and studying them carefully and then practicing what I learn in quick missions in the simulator.
 
Eventually, I want to start a career with the Lafayette Escadrille at the earliest date possible within the game. I checked and the Nieuport 11 is the first plane you fly with them.
 
I decided to learn how to fly using this machine since it will be the first one I fly and also it is more primitive than later machines. I thought it might be nice to become comfortable with this one before moving on to later planes.
 
Anyway, I have a question about flying the Nieuport 11 and making steep, vertical turns.
 
I've become pretty confident flying the machine. I can take off easily and manage my fuel intake in flight. I'm comfortable with the ideal angle of incidence and average speed for climbing and maintaining level flight, and I can fly decently straight while maintaining control of the craft consistently. I can make wonderful gentle and controlled turns without side slipping inward or outward. I can even land decently most of the time (but not all the time! - these plane are fiddly!). I've also become quite comfortable at restoring control after stalls and moments of control loss. (It's all a huge improvement over the first time I flew this machine and was jittery, uncertain, and all over the place.)
 
However, the one thing I can't do confidently is make steep, vertical turns. Every time I attempt these turns, my plane loses altitude and enters a more or less spiral descent. I have to struggle to regain control and then gain altitude again.
 
First, I learned from McMinnies' Practical Flying, and then I turned to Barber's wonderful Aerobatics.
 
Barber and McMinnies recommend the following steps:
 
1. Begin with a normal, moderate turn with bank and rudder.
 
2. As you near 45 degrees, begin to pull the stick back.
 
3. Be aware that the aircraft controls will invert, so rudder will now control pitch and the elevators will now control yaw.
 
4. Trim the nose to the horizon as necessary.
 
5. As the bank becomes steeper, pull back on the stick more until it is against your stomach.
 
Barber adds this:
 
"The most surprising thing about a sharp turn with a vertical bank is ... little or no altitude is lost. ... If the turn is not sharp enough for the bank (i.e., the stick not pulled back enough) the machine side-slips at once and altitude is lost. The maintenance of altitude during a vertical bank then appears in practice to depend upon the turn being sufficiently sharp."
 
Both McMinnies and Barber describe this maneuver as if it were pretty simple and commonplace. However, I have tried everything they have said again and again, but in the Nieuport 11, I keep losing control and diving or losing much altitude.
 
Even though I'm aware of the fact that my rudder and elevator controls are inverted, I begin diving long before I can trim my nose successfully to the horizon. 
 
I've also noticed in the Nieuport 11 that (all) turns to the right are more easily controlled, but turns to the left (especially attempts at vertical banks) are extremely sensitive and delicate. I completely lose control in vertical banks to the left far more dramatically than to the right.
 
Can anyone help me with this? I feel my forward progress is forever hindered until I can master these turns.
 
(And I know some might suggest I use a different plane, but I seriously want to learn all of this confidently on the Nieuport 11 first.)

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#2 unreasonable

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 04:47

The N11 has a rotary engine - as do many others in the game - which is the reason why it's turn behaviour is not symmetrical. I suggest you google "rotary engine" and read up a bit to understand the physics - essentially it behaves like a gyroscope - and look at some diagrams. Dealing with it is mostly a matter of knowing what will happen and then using rudder correctly to keep the nose aligned where you want it, but even for an expert turns one way will always be faster than the other.

 

As for vertical turns it is clear that if you really are banked at 90 degrees and aligned horizontally nose to tail, your plane must be dropping like a stone: the only things that can counter gravity are the lift of the wings and the thrust of the engine, and if neither of these have an upwards vector component (both being aligned horizontally) you must accelerate towards the earth at 1 g. So the altitude lost is a function of time. If you want to turn without losing height you must either limit your bank and/or keep the nose above the horizon (mostly the former - the engines are not that strong).

 

WW1 aircraft simply cannot turn fast enough to turn vertically banked without significant altitude loss. Remember also that a fast vertically banked turn places the plane under enormous g forces, and WW1 aircraft were not especially strong. Banking vertically and pulling hard on the stick is a good way to lose your wings. The best way to turn any WW1 quickly is.... (insert opinion here :) ) IMHO some variant of the Imelmann turn.

 

These are all fascinating subjects - I am sure you will enjoy your researches!


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#3 marshce

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 05:23

Oh, don't worry! I've thoroughly researched the Gnome and the Le Rhone 9C engines!

 

Although this is all covered somewhat in McMinnies' Practical Flying, I've also read through Pollard's Aero Engines, Magnetos, and Carburetors!

 

I don't kid around when I set out to learn something!  :icon_e_smile:

 

However, reading is one thing, and practically doing something is another.

 

I'm definitely aware of (and can feel) the forces and limitations you are talking about and understand the science of them, but all of these contemporary writers write about these steep, vertical turns with such confidence that it really seems like they are more than doable even with rotary engines (and maybe especially with rotary engines).

 

I'm just wondering if my plane of choice has certain limitations or whether I'm just doing something wrong.

 

One thing I can say, though, is trying these turns again and again, I have really learned to regain control of my machine confidently and easily. I'm sure this will all help me when I do eventually enter battle.


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#4 Plank

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 08:52

Dear Marshce,

 

Record a track and then upload load it to a file host and then post the link here.

Then we can all have a look and see what you are doing.

 

I have modified my n11 and n17 curves to remove the very twitchy nose down.

( if you grab the dot on the left hand side you can drag it up and reduce your

nose down considerable, it has proved itself a wonder.)

 

erm I can post a pic for you.

 

Good choice of plane. Once you get the hang of her she will see you right.

 

Salute!

 

Plank.

 

PS...

 

Attached File  N11 pitch Planky.jpg   451.2KB   0 downloads

 

I adjust the trim of the plane by using the "shift curve" up or down function.

So I set my plane to nose up ever so slightly when hands off stick at full gallop and n fuel load etc.

 

NOTE :

When you use "shift curve" function it does not move the dot on the left so you have to

move that manually. :)

 

After having a bit more play in the N11

 

Stick over to 45,

stick back a bit,

When the plane is bank turning bring the stick to centre but still back

and she should sail around the corner nicely canted over.

To level the plane,

stick opposite and fwd.

centre stick. (if it's not centred...)

 

Stay off the rudder. She will either drop a wing sharply or snap roll you.

 

I would practice a slight bank turn left then right etc

so that you snake along, no rudder needed.

Once you get into the rhythm you can slalom along

feeling how she responds.

when you get it nice and smooth you are well on your way.

 

Best regards. P.


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#5 marshce

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 08:54

I just took up my machine for about a 45 minutes flight. I ascended to 1000m, and then I attempted once again to perform the steep, vertical turn.

 

I noticed a few things:

 

1. As I turn to the left or right and near that critical 45 degree bank, I begin to gently pull the control level back; this seems to work for a moment and everything goes fine. However, soon my nose starts moving below the horizon at which point I try to apply the inverted rudder to raise the nose. It is here that I begin to lose control. I found that if I quickly pull out of this bank now I can easily regain control, but I just can't seem to move beyond this point. (For the record bank is at about 75 - 80 degrees at this point.) If I don't pull out of the bank at this point, I immediately enter a spinning dive.

 

The rudder throws everything into chaos, it appears.

 

2. I did some looping practice as well on this flight, and I noticed a similar turning action again. I can create my initial looping dive angle, increase to the appropriate speed (about 140 km/hr) then pull back on the lever to initiate the loop. However, as my plane pitches upward it starts turning either to the left or right. It seems as if I apply opposite rudder I can counteract this, but it is very, very sensitive and difficult to do. On multiple attempts I was only able to initiate one performance that could (quite generously) be consider a true loop.

 

Both of these points seem related.  These maneuvers seem to require very controlled and precise rudder movements.

 

Has anyone found this to be true as well? Do you think my inability to hold a successful vertical turn is related to precise rudder control? Is this something related to the Nieuports in general, rotary-powered aircraft, or is it something related to all planes of this era?

 

Any help or feedback would be greatly appreciated!

 

(By the way, if you haven't noticed yet from my posts, I'm treating Rise of Flight first and foremost as a flight simulator. Shooting down the Hun can wait until I feel I'm a master at controlling these aircraft!)


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#6 marshce

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:07

Plank,

 

Thank you very much for the information. I appreciate the help.

 

Reading other posts here in the forums, I have thought about changing the curves to decrease the nose-up effect. But I've noticed with increased altitude the nose-up effect seems to decrease, and because of this, I suddenly became reticent to alter the curves thinking it might actually be a realistic representation of the way these aircraft actually flew. Of course, I have never actually flown an authentic Nieuport, so I have no idea.

 

(I'm curious if anyone who also plays Wings Over Flanders Field knows whether the Nieuports in that game fly with the nose slightly up in the same way.)

 

Oh, wait, I've just checked something!

 

The only reliable source I can find about this is from that Vintage Aviator website where this is said about the Nieuport 11:

 

"As with many WWI types the nieuport is tail heavy and requires a fair amount of forward stick to maintain level flight."

 

That seems pretty definitive to me.

 

The article goes on to say this:

 

"The ailerons are relatively heavy and create a large amount of adverse yaw."

 

Perhaps that's what I'm experiencing in my vertical turns and loops. I think I might have to sensitively learn how to compensate for this. (At the moment I'm using a joystick with a twist rudder function. Next month I'm planning on getting rudder pedals. This might help me to control my plane better.)

 

Anyway, Plank, I thank you very much for your suggestions. I'll continue experimenting. (And, by the way, I know what you mean about certain machines. You develop a lot of affection for them after flying in them for such a long time and learning their quirks. They become like a valued friend!)


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#7 Plank

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:29

Dear Marshce.

 

Stay off the rudder. :)

 

Check my curve in previous reply.

 

Use you ailerons to adjust your bank turn.

 

In a left turn, left aleiron will lower the nose, right will raise it. and vice versa.

 

In a right hand bank turn hard right rudder will kill you if you are too low.

It will corkscrew you down...

 

I was testing these as I wrote so they should be correct.

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#8 Plank

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:34

News just in.

 

For a hard left bank turn at speed.

 

Rudder left. (bring the nose around till it resists)

 

Roll left ( centre rudder)

 

Stick back.

 

S!


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#9 marshce

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 10:34

Plank,

 

Thank you for taking the time to test all of this.

 

I was wondering, though, if you are able to maintain your steep, vertical turns endlessly, around and around, with no loss of altitude?

 

This is a picture from Barber's Aerobatics:

 

Sharp_Turn.jpg

 

Again, in that book, Barber mentions that this turn can be maintained for a continuous amount of time without a lose in altitude.

 

And for the record, I am not using my right rudder as I bank to the right after reaching a 45 degree angle. That will, of course, cause an immediate nose dive. (Although, of course, I use my right rudder slightly initially when banking right before the 45 degree angle is reached - and vice versa - to aid the turn as I'm supposed to do. This has been repeatedly taught to me in all the books I've been reading and it works beautifully. I do believe slight rudder and aileron are both necessary to make efficient turns at below 45 degree angles.)

 

Also, I've just re-read your posts and advice, and I think we might be talking about different things here. I can turn without incident at up to 45 degrees gently and smoothly. What I'm trying to do is a complete 90 degree turn, right and left wings completely vertical.

 

Are we talking about the same thing?

 

Thank you, again!


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#10 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 11:46

No airplane (at least in RoF) can maintain a vertical bank endlessly, and nor should they.  It shouldn't happen in real life either unless the engine has a tremendous thrust because you're putting the lift vector of the wings perpendicular to gravity, therefore there will be sideslip and you will loose altitude.  Stop trying to create a perpetual motion machine! :icon_e_biggrin:

 

RE: joystick curves, I agree with you, I do not adjust them either other than adding a little deadzone on the rudder for when you get around to shooting...  I also prefer to fly the sim with all the quirks that the devs created in these buses and crates.  But to each his/her own, I do not pass judgement if you do.

 

RE: WoFF, I would not look too far into their flight models for inspiration, the game engine is CFS3 (vintage 2002) and it simply does not model physics the way RoF does.  Watch this and believe:  https://www.youtube....?v=o3tJlFsGRSE   And if you're not impressed, then this: https://www.youtube....h?v=CLQtBV73ofM

 

To be honest, I'm excited/jealous of you that you are beginning this journey of RoF exploration; I can remember my first flights and first victory.  As you've discovered it is a very challenging and rewarding simulator with full physics/difficulty settings on. 

 

The AI can be challenging in the beginning, but heed some advice and repress the erg to follow them down when they try to escape in a spiral dive.  Instead keep your altitude (manage your energy) but do not take your eye off the target, wait and pick your moment to pounce again. 

 

When the AI gets boring, then try your new found skills on a multiplayer server, but be prepared to put away your ego and be humbled.  You will die, and die often.  We all did and still do.  Don't forget to S! [salute] your opponent in chat; it is tradition and sign of good sportsmanship that seems to be disappearing among the new online players.

 

:icon_e_salute:


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#11 Plank

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 11:47

Not really. ( are we talking about the same thing)

 

A completely vertical bank might be doable out of a dive but you find it very hard to keep up for too long.

(in a n11, well actually you just have to let it wind up first...)

 

Essentially you will be flying with your rudder and prop giving you lift after your momentum runs out.

and then it's all down hill form there.

 

that picture is giving you a false idea of how steep it's bank actually is.

 

If you look carefully you can see the pov is looking pretty much below

centre of the plane which would put it well above the horizon if it was

90deg to the ground. ( vertical bank) but the pov of view is heading

toward Terra firma. ( not a vertical bank)

 

A really steep bank can be had in a strutter B.

 

they seem to be able to pull them off quite well for ages.

 

Something to do with floating wings...

 

Oh I say Bandy has arrived. Salute Bandy.

 

and Salute!

 

Plank.


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#12 marshce

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 11:53

SYN_Bandy,

 

You are right. It's not perpetual motion!  :icon_e_smile: I was just trying to make a point.

 

However, according to what I've read, you can keep the vertical turn going for a while. I can make turn after turn with a normal banking turn repeatedly without losing altitude. I just can't for the life of me even initiate a vertical turn in the Nieuport 11!

 

This is a quote from McMinnies' Practical Flying about these steep, vertical turns:

 

"Once the correct position of levers has been found the machine will continue to turn round and round without losing height or increasing its bank or radius of turn."

 

Sorry to keep quoting these things, but it sounds like it really should be possible, and I wonder what I doing wrong.

 

Thank you for your response, SYN_Bandy.


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#13 unreasonable

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 15:12

Just to reiterate what I said - and what Bandy said - a vertically banked turn without loss of altitude would only ever be possible if the engine thrust were pointed above the horizon and was capable of producing an upwards acceleration of 1g on the plane to counter the 1g of gravity. It is not, as you can easily see by pointing the plane vertically upwards.

 

I suspect that in your books discussion of "vertically banked turns" the author is actually talking about steeply banked - ie maybe 45-60 degrees or so, where lift still has a significant vertical vector. So I suspect that you are not actually doing anything wrong - it is just that the author of your book is being a bit imprecise with his language. (Typical pilot ;)).

 

The other issue is twist stick vs pedals. Lots of people do fly well with twist sticks, but having used both I will assert that rudder pedals are much easier to use precisely, and it is also easier to learn how much movement is needed to get a particular result. And less painfull on the joints after a long flight.... If you are getting some rudder pedals I suggest just keeping an open mind on the technique needed for the rudder: you will have to re-learn it all when you get them set up.

 

Final point: while the RoF FMs are generally thought to be pretty good in general, there are areas where they do not behave just like the reports of the originals. Trim and control balance are areas in particular where there are differences. So while reading up on the originals is informative, sometimes you just have to accept that the RoF version is what it is and get the best out of it. In one respect at least though they are bang on - these crates are all very sensitive to rudder input and you will need to get good at using the rudder at all times.


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#14 1PL-Husar

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 18:41

I have read those books too. Was trying to copy this turn some years ago in RoF without luck. Now i hardly believe that Avro 504 could do this 90 degree turn without losing altitude.


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34zg6jd.jpg


#15 marshce

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 22:35

Thank you all! I think you guys have answered my question very thoroughly.

 

Unreasonable, this was the conclusion I came to yesterday that maybe the language is a bit imprecise and I was misunderstanding things. (These books were written with the idea that you would be learning this with an instructor, and I'm sure that instructor would have clarified things more in person.)

 

I think I'll keep trying at just over that 45 degree angle and see if I can turn stably at that point. I'll keep pushing the limit until it becomes critical and go from there.

 

And, Husar, I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one who was unsuccessful with implementing this maneuver. That makes me feel better.

 

By the way, here are two images from Practical Flying which illustrate this maneuver from another point of view and describe the rudder movements:

 

001.jpg

 

002.jpg

 

Again, thank you to everyone!


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#16 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 22:45

Hello marshce,

 

Yes, WW1 planes were designed before standardisation and you can't expect them all to execute same maneuver in the same way. All WW1 planes are more rudder sensitive and need more rudder than later, more conventional designs (switching to Battle of Stalingrad planes illustrates this very well) and handle differently, so it's not surprising if maneuveres are performed differently than on modern planes, or differently between various WW1 planes. Especially if procedure was written down after 1920s. Nieuport 11, in addition to rotary engine, has no vertical stabiliser - making the rudder both more powerful and twitchy. In my experience, planes with no stabiliser and rotary (like Fokker Dr.I or most Nieuports) is best flied with ""reversed" controls - initiate maneuvers with rudder then stabilise with ailerons rather than other way around. Think with pedals.

There are real life pilots on this forum that will know difference between N.17 and IRL modern planes. FourSpeed is the man I would ask.


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#17 Plank

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 04:47

Still bashing around in the N11...

Could not maintain a vertical bank at all. touched vertical a few times but.... no.

To fly sideways for any length of time and not lose alt would require a much larger engine....

 

Flying around at 45 ish was ok.

 

It's interesting the perspectives people have ie. "inverted" controls. As soon as I worked out that

my rudder was controlling my vertical attitude while side on I promptly took it on board and

have never considered it since. To hear this is called control " inversion" is interesting.

( I would never use it in conversation...)

 

The other thing that is interesting is there is quite a lot of control mixing/blending as you cant the plane over.

If our elevator is "up and down"  when leaning over it becomes more "left and right" ( if you use the earth centric view)

But for some reason I never even consider this in flight. For me the plane is flying normally

at all times and the world is moving around it, so when I cast my eyes around to check the

horizon I don't have to mentally reorganise things. Flying to me is just a script of commands.

Stick back, right rudder. stick fwd. Throttle down etc.

and when I get too low I start adding in hw far I am from solid objects, bridges, trees etc.

 

Gravity is however pretty darn "there" and from a gravity anchored view there is only one down.

 

so I guess we now have "down actual" and "up actual" ( left and right depends or right way down or right way up...)

 

But really we all use down and up in the classical sense. Earth down, sky up...

 

and on using curves.

 

I have tried a short throw stick, and a long throw stick.

I have tried seriously mad curves, very normal curves, no curves, dead straight lines but with trim etc

We can't slave ourselves to the " no curves is more real" as we have no feed back, we have no idea

how the stick is suppose to feel, how could you possible fly a real mechanical plane with a three inch stick.

 

so I decided to go with what I would like my aeroplane to feel like with my stick.

 

and the curve above is exactly that.

 

The extremely fast nose down was becoming a complete bore, in real life I would have worked 

the plane myself to reduce this considerably. . ( with my vast mechanical skill...)

 

so I guess it's not "really real" but it is much better to fly. ( need to nose down fast? Roll over and stick back...)

 

Learning to fly is fun, to do it "by the books" maybe not so much, to crash and learn.... my dear fellow we are invincible!

 

RoF is the ultimate "barnstorming" simulator.

Toss the guns overboard and paint your kite bright colours. It's all the rage.

 

Have you tried the N28 yet? it's amazing at zero to 50 metres. and you can get some good 90deg banking turns in

before the silly engine runs out of oompf.

 

Salute!

 

Plank. 

 

PS. Nice drawings... Where do you get these?


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#18 unreasonable

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 05:49

@Plank

 

I think what Trups is calling inversion is simply the idea that in initating a banked turn:

 

- Modern aircraft = start with ailerons for bank then stabilize with rudder for fine control

- WW1 aircraft = start with rudder for bank then stabilize with ailerons for fine control.

 

I sort of agree, there is a difference which takes a bit of getting used to when you switch RoF for BoS, but I find I am much better off just thinking of moving both controls together in a banked turn - takes a while but eventually feels natural. You still have to deal with how much of each control a specific plane type needs but at least you only have a one set of actions for every plane.

 

@marshce - my pleasure  :icon_e_salute:  Whatever I have learned (or mis-learned) about flight has been through the medium of exchanges like this in flight-sim forums which make me go away and read up about topics until I understand them (I hope), so I am always happy to pitch into a discussion! 


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#19 Plank

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 08:59

Mr dear Unreasonable.

 

The definition of "inversion" as applies to control surfaces shall be henceforth set out:

 

Ahem.

 

and inverted control surface will produce the inversion of it's "normal" response.

(normal is flying the right way up and at a reasonable speed and all controls are functioning as expected...)

 

for example.

 

If your elevator gives you nose up when stick back,

it will when inverted will produce nose down when  stick back. 

 

(nose up/down is using toward earth as "down" and toward the heavens as "up.)

 

So if you are flying upside down your control is now "inverted".

 

Inverted: Back is "down" Fwd is "up".

 

Normal: Fwd is "down" Back is "up".

 

I.M.H.O.  etc Q.E.D.  R.S.V.P  P.D.P-11 ...  

 

 

fly by wire planes have had some rather nasty accidents when controls have been wired the wrong way around, "Inverted".

(Back is down and Fwd is up, a terrible mistake BUT they did not check before they took off.... so yes...all bad. )

 

Two major sources of "inversion" in my experience are:

 

1 Flying upside down. ( Actually inverted controls)

 

2 Flying while looking backwards. ( Perceptually inverted controls)

 

both are worth practising and great for certain situations. Parties, weddings etc.

 

I have heard of control inversion due to extreme high speed but  we don't talk about that... yet...

 

Feel free to correct me, be casual and at least give me a point for trying. :)

 

Salute!

 

Plank.

 

Ps. I think using the rudder to nose up/dwn while flying sideways ( one wing down, the other up) is more of a control duty swap.

      if you look at things that way, which I don't... and so possibly calling it a control "inversion" is technically not really correct.


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#20 unreasonable

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 10:29

@Plank - I was simply trying to clarify what I thought Trups was saying. He is Polish after all (I assume from his Warsaw address and wild, bearded avatar. Although I could be wrong: after all I am not Thai despite my address and wild, toothed avatar). So it is a miracle: or great credit to him -  that he can communicate in English at all, but as a native English speaker I occasionally have to use heroic powers of empathy to understand his meaning. But then I have to use heroic powers of empathy to understand your meaning too....

 

Actually he said 'reversed" controls not "inverted" - but the point remains, I believe he was merely pointing to the difference in emphasis between the rudder and ailerons in starting a banked turn, rather than anything to do with flying upside down. No doubt he will correct me if I am wrong.

 

It is understandable, of course, that you would be more concerned with flying upside down as, living at the bottom or the globe, you have to fly like this all the time.

 

But a point for trying anyway. +1 (One green arrow, hanging on the post....)

Perhaps another point for being trying?....

 

PS a bottle of Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon with lunch is just the thing. :)

 

OP: Try not to mind us - I am afraid that this kind of thing - and much worse - is a part and parcel of the forum life.


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#21 marshce

marshce
  • Posts: 105
  • LocationTokyo, Japan

Posted 16 January 2016 - 11:46

Plank,

 

Those last two drawings come from McMinnies' 1918 book, Practical Flying.

 

You can get it along with many other wonderful books at the absolutely indispensable New Wings: Virtual Flight School website: 

 

http://newwingstrain....php?content.81


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#22 J2_Trupobaw

J2_Trupobaw
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  • Posts: 4151
  • LocationKraków / Poland

Posted 16 January 2016 - 11:47

Actually, "Inverted" controls means you have checked "inverted" box in response curves menu for that axis :P . The effect is pretty much what Plank describes. Best used with throttle and zoom axes...

But what I meant what pretty obvious from context (unreasonable had no problems seeing it).

Please, don' t fill the threads with off-topic posts just because you have keyboard and thin excuse. 

 

Unreasonable is spot on, too, emphasis is the word I should have used. I have found that merely keeping the mindset ("fly her with pedals, fly her with pedals" - insert "ailerons" when flying a Dolphin) improves my maneuvrability in more tricky planes.


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#23 Plank

Plank
  • Posts: 2835
  • LocationNew Zealand.

Posted 16 January 2016 - 14:01

Ahem: first post, sixteenth line down:

 

"Be aware that the aircraft controls will invert, so rudder will now control pitch and the elevators will now control yaw."

 

We always fly upside down. No idea why. Gravity?

 

Great word indispensable, can't spell it to save my life though. 

 

No no no do not fly the n11 with the pedals! You will come a cropper!

Be gentle with your feet!

 

A bit of a tap here and there is all she really needs.

 

Twist grip rudder control is, I am afraid, not going to cut it. as they say...

 

Crumpets are toasting, pull up a mug of brandy old chap.

 

I was practising flying under the rail bridge in some place, god knows where,  and I thought I might

fly along it... found out the plane was wider than the bridge work... sprained a toe. 

Plane was a total wreak, pick it up on Monday...

 

Salute!

 

Captain Plank.


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-

Captured again!

 


#24 marshce

marshce
  • Posts: 105
  • LocationTokyo, Japan

Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:18

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I would like to provide some closure to this question I had asked.

 

I figured out what I was doing wrong. There were two points that were preventing me from doing this maneuver:

 

1. The vagueness of the written accounts led to me misunderstanding the maneuver. This isn't a nearly 90 degree turn; this is a turn that is slightly over 45 degrees. This was never clearly stated in any of the books that I read, and - as stated before - these books were written with the assumption that you would be learning with a human instructor who would explain and demonstrate these maneuvers first hand. I'm sure this person would have clearly explained what to do.

 

2. When I first bought Rise of Flight, I didn't have plans to be ultra-realistic. I was going to find a happy compromise between realism and "arcade-like fun". However, I soon fell in love with Rise of Flight as an fairly-accurate simulation of World War I aviation, and I decided to go ultra-realistic. Before this happened, though, I found the rudder controls to be extremely sensitive. I searched around the internet, and someone somewhere (I don't remember) recommended changing the rudder responses to an S-curve. I did this at that time and found the rudder (at least initially) to be easier to control. I left it like this and completely forgot about having changed it.

 

A few days ago I suddenly remembered that I had changed these settings. I immediately went back into the program and switched back to the original linear curve. I have gotten a lot of flying experience since those early days when I first bought the program, and I am a much better and more confident pilot. The rudder controls are no longer a problem for me. When I started up a new flight with the original rudder controls restored, I was shocked and pleased to find the rudder much, much more responsive. I truly felt I could control my plane much more easily and accurately now.

 

With both of these realizations in hand I was able to finally achieve this long sought after maneuver! I just first found the threshold beyond 45 degrees that I could bank, turn, and still remain at my present altitude, and then I could control my nose with gentle rudder adjustments and make the turn!

 

So, this case is closed as far as I'm concerned and a couple of lessons learned.

 

Check this out!

 

Steep_Turn.jpg

 

:icon_e_biggrin:


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