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#41 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 06:48

     Once again, since no one accused you of cheating, why should we believe that you were the target of the accusation?

  

 

They posted my stats as an example of cheating.


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#42 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 06:53

I just informed the squad that was accused of cheating about this thread.  They seemed to care.


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#43 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 07:01

I should correct that.  I informed one of the squads that they accused of cheating.  They appear to have accused more than one squad of cheating.


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#44 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 07:13

they have been about the way you present yourself in this forum, the way others see you and your overweening ego.

 

That's great, but this thread is about accusing people of cheating without any evidence. 


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#45 remcov

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 08:27

Can something similar be observed on aces falling?
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#46 GrahamshereGT

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 08:38

Well I'm glad it's not the GT's that are cheating becaused I'd be PO so much, all this time and not shareing the hack with me, if you look at my score I could use the help. And let me tell you I get shot down lots, and I mean lots. Oh I know how frustrating it can be too . Thank god that pilots like 4speed come in WG once in a while so that I can get to shoot some one down for a change. lol

Just relax guys and have fun shooting me down. probably were most you get your high scores from any way. Even the GT's have fun with that once in a while.


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#47 J99=Hardy

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 09:12

Edited because I don't wan't to participate any discussion of that tone.


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#48 J30_von_Hammer

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 17:05

I use scores initially, as it's easier for most to relate with. The affects of July Aug 2014 score board changes have no real impact, as that change affected 100% of everybody.

 

Here are some graphs with a little more focus on what happened more recently going into March of 2015.

 

Figure 6: no scaling

Group A- this is about a half dozen guys who are well known, seasoned flyers, who fly fairly consistently. Typical of most individual pilots 

 

 

Attached File  Figure 6.png   30.81KB   0 downloads

 

Figure 7: no scaling

Group B- this is about a half dozen guys who have also flown for a long time, yet, something happened going into March that boosted them.

 

 

Attached File  Figure 7.png   34.48KB   0 downloads

 

 

Figure 8: no scaling

Group C- this is a well known Squad, very experienced, that flies a lot with around a dozen (twice as many) pilots in the same time period.

 

Attached File  Figure 8.png   30.04KB   0 downloads

 

As with many pilots, there is a surge of flying in the winter months and a drop in the Spring. That is typical and is seen in these graphs. Scores can rise with more guys flying, as more opportunities exist to score, and there is more action.

 

However, notice that this year, the best Group C can achieve is around 50,000 with typical, consistent flying and numbers of sorties.

Group B, with half the flyers, achieves upwards to 67,000+ points in a very sudden, nearly 5 fold increase over Group C's 2 fold increase for the season, with no major increase in sorties.  

 

Group B had a 28% drop in sorties flown in May, but are still able to pump out nearly 40,000 points. This group of pilots have all boosted to a new level overnight, and their scoring will most likely reflect that from this point on. After almost 2 years of flying, they rose to a typical level, as compared to most, then within the span of one month, they all boosted to become well above average.

 

Detailed Data shows, within a period of about 5 days, this Group B pilots suddenly elevated themselves very sharply- an event not easily explained if nothing changed.

 

Detailed data means I sit there for a few days, and go over every single flight, every single hit, what type of hits, how many wounds, ratios of hits to wounds, how many times they wound on first shot, how many combats, weed out bombing and strafing, etc, etc. All that forms a ppm, as would be called in defect analysis. And that type of data in the shop would tell me something changed significantly, and we need to look into it.

The affect on score is directly related, so I use score graphs for you now. Scores vary to due other factors, of course, but in the grand scheme, nobody has changed their flying habits significantly enough and most all pilots have a visible pattern, especially given 2 years of data. A sudden, significant change is notable and shows up in the score.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#49 J99=Hardy

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 17:10

Edited because I don't wan't to participate any discussion of that tone.


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#50 J99=Hardy

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 17:46

Edited because I don't wan't to participate any discussion of that tone.


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#51 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 18:03

I use scores initially, as it's easier for most to relate with. The affects of July Aug 2014 score board changes have no real impact, as that change affected 100% of everybody.

 

 

No, the stats change did not affect everyone the same way.  People that get lots of kills and get home alive now get a lot more points.  People that get killed a lot won't see a big increase in points because the stats change significantly increased points for landing kills. 


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#52 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 18:05

@BSR: So I assume your In-Game name is Leprechaun - I recommend to change it to Rumpelstiltskin. I'm very sorry, but your behaviour in this thread was inadequate.

 

I was accused of cheating by someone with absolutely no evidence to support the accusation.  If anything my behavior has been too calm.


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#53 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 18:42

 This makes me just think that it would be a really good idea if FourSpeed could check data and methodology of this report.

 

If Fourspeed didn't realize that it is nonsense within 5 minutes of reading it, then he's no more qualified to check it than Hammer.  I have a degree in mathematical sciences and 30+ years of programming experience.  I'm qualified to check the data and the methodology, and I already pointed out a fatal flaw.


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#54 J99=Hardy

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 18:45

Edited because I don't wan't to participate any discussion of that tone.


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#55 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 18:48

You should stay objective in your posts. 

I was completely objective.  The flaw in his report was blatantly obvious almost immediately.  I don't give a crap who I offended.


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#56 J99=Hardy

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 18:50

Edited because I don't wan't to participate any discussion of that tone.


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#57 closed_accont

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 19:06

BSR told me that the second chart is about one GT guy, well I did not confirm it with my own math and probably I'll not do that (no time for that kind of nonsense) and I really don't think that the GTs needed my words to defende them as well.

 

but talking about cheating on ROF, I have seen tons of acusations along these years, and it's easy to understand why, we're playing a video game and is well known the video games are on theory at least, possible to cheat.

But to me all this is about self frustration, sometimes we have hard times to understand that always will be someone more skilled than us around and it's the normal thing.

BSR is a common target of this kind of stuff, because he is a "Bad Ass" hard to catch, particulary I think he lost hours of fun flying the way he does, I mean so carefully, but that is his way and concern only about him.

I do belive he can shoot double people more if he takes some more risks on his flying style.

 

but say he's using a kind of help to aim targets?

well I can tell you he is using something wrong or we will have to put more people on the wall, because I know guys who can shoot way better than him, using my own experience to be shot by those.  (their names don’t deserv to be here).

 

I also know guys who can take a factory out with one pass with a single 2 seater, who can choose shoot first your gunner, then start to make your harmless plane a crap unbelivable fast, some you just can't beat on single combat no matter the plane you are using, others that always see you first and some others who know the right time to defend his partner just a second before you be able to finish him.

this all means they are better skilled thats all.

other day someone tell me: shoot at the engine!

I barely can aim to the plane, how it's possible to aim the engine? but it's truth some pilots can do that... live with it or give up...

 

To me the OP cannot understand his own weakness and then make sense to him to put the blame on those who are that he want to be "they can’t be so good!"

 

As J2_Trupo wrote, we can imagine lots of causes to explain changes on pilot stats, so those charts stats don't tell me much beyond the time spend by the guy who made it.

 

like we say here in Brazil:

"ovelha não é pra mato"

on free translate:

"sheep are not made for forests"


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#58 Arfsix

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 19:14

If Fourspeed didn't realize that it is nonsense within 5 minutes of reading it, then he's no more qualified to check it than Hammer.  I have a degree in mathematical sciences and 30+ years of programming experience.  I'm qualified to check the data and the methodology, and I already pointed out a fatal flaw.

Sir,

     I really must apologize for questioning your age, life experience, and employment background. From reading your posts, I drew the reasoned conclusion that you were behaving like a spoiled 8 year old child who would try to bully people into getting his way or winning the argument. 

     It is obvious that an educated adult approaching middle age should know how to conduct himself in a discussion group composed of adults. I am sorry that my interpretation of your responses and actions in this forum would cause me to think otherwise.


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#59 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 19:18

I wonder if J30_Von_Hammer has ever flown with the individuals, or indeed, the squads whose integrity he is calling into question? 

 

 

 

That's excellent digression - cheating or no, flying with people you usually fly against is great way to get to know them and their ways. I admit I had antipathies in ROF community (some people who downed me to often and in nasty ways were obvious jerks, and both J5 and 1PL squadrons were obviously bands of butchers ;) ). None of my antipathies survived flying with these people. I think we should have pilot exchange programs within squadrons, just to cement the community. 


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#60 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 19:40

Sir,

     I really must apologize for questioning your age, life experience, and employment background. From reading your posts, I drew the reasoned conclusion that you were behaving like a spoiled 8 year old child who would try to bully people into getting his way or winning the argument. 

     It is obvious that an educated adult approaching middle age should know how to conduct himself in a discussion group composed of adults. I am sorry that my interpretation of your responses and actions in this forum would cause me to think otherwise.

 

 

That's quite alright.  From reading your posts I assumed that you have some sort of learning disability.


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#61 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 19:44

I do belive he can shoot double people more if he takes some more risks on his flying style.

 

 

That would result in double deaths, which is something that I try very hard to avoid.  But I hear that there is a squad using a hack that might help me with that, so it could change...


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#62 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 19:49

BSR told me that the second chart is about one GT guy

 

3rd chart.  2nd chart is a J5 pilot.  4th chart is GT squad.  Hammer is making friends all over the place.


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#63 J99=Hardy

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 21:18

Edited because I don't wan't to participate any discussion of that tone.


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#64 GrahamshereGT

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 22:31

Yes pilot exchange, that would be great. me and lepracaun flying together.

 

Lepracaun: I see a fight down there looks like a geram and 2 alied

 

Graham: ya its me come down and get theses guys off me will ya.

 

Lepracaun: no way , Im not losing my kill streek for you , no chance , now way, uhuh not gona happen.

 

Teamspeak explodes and we have no more team  speak again.

 

 hahah jokeing with you BSR , all in good fun.

 

Do you think that maybe somes scores have climb is because of steam, with all these newbies that came on was like spearing fish in a barrel . was easy pickens for some.

 

plus with the hack they did with the turn fighters the boom and zoom guys benifited from that big time.  so I'm sure there are lots of reasons why somes scores have climbed.

I can tell you right here and now the GT's DO NOT CHEAT, first if FogelGT found out any of us did he would toss us out right there and then. he is the most honest person I ever talked to , he loves this game?sim too much to want to see it go and I'm sure its irking lots to here the crap thats going on. Like Hammer said cheatting started red barron so he knows what happen to that game and dosn't want the same happen to this one.

                                                                         Over and out

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#65 GrahamshereGT

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 22:33

oh excuse the spelling, ill here about it from Fogel later, dam


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#66 J5_Gamecock

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 01:24

 Ok, I very rarely post in the forums, but I'll make one here. Part of me wants this post to just go away,but part of me wants to make sure that rumors of "Hacking" get squashed quick. IMO, the accusations and/or rumors of hacking can be just as detrimental to our community as the actual act itself.

 

 I am the pilot of the second graph,the "Squad Member". IMO there is nothing here that can't be explained,(based on the "proof" that has been submitted thus far).Von Hammer, if you have more detailed data then I would urge you to share with Four Speed or Hardy or someone else to verify because what you have here amounts to little more than a witch  hunt.

 

  As BSR pointed out, the sudden uptick in points does indeed seem to coincide  with a change in the way Wargrounds scores points. If you notice the top pilots on the leaderboard scored in the 1-3000 range prior to Aug. of 2014.After that, the top pilots scored in excess of 8-9000 points. There was one who actually scored over 17,000... in nothing but bombers. (Doubt any "Gun Hack" was used there)

 

  As for myself, my points did increase as well, from 1591 in Jul.'14,  to 8333 in Aug.  What the Graph does not show however is that I had 162 AK's (Air Kills) and 36 GK's (Ground Kills)  to get to that 1591 in July,while in Aug I got 8333 points with 131 AK's and only 7 GK's. This too would also indicate a difference in scoring rather than me suddenly becoming an Ace. That is of course, unless you think I've found a way to hack the way points are scored. IMO you're theory is incorrect.

 

 I'll also point out that in the six months prior to Aug. '14 my gun accuracy was at 18.03%. In the six months after I supposedly acquired the Gun hack, it dropped to 16.4... What exactly is it this hack was supposed to help me with?

 

 As for my Kills per sortie and Kills per Hour, they stayed pretty much constant throughout your time indicated. I did have a slight improvement in Kills per sortie in June of '14, when I joined and began flying with my squad rather than flying on my own. Nothing earth shattering tho.. from .5 KS to about .7 KS

 

  As for the sudden drop off in March of this year,when I supposedly ran into other "hackers" that put and end to my ill gotten glory, I think it has more to do with a RL situation that saw me go from flying 40-50+ hours per month to around 22 in March, 15 in April.

 

  I've also been able to explain your "Squad of Hackers", that seemed to become elite back in March. It also coincides with a change in Wargounds scoring. As of Jan or Feb of this year, Ground targets became much more valuable than air kills in Wargrounds. As a fighter, I wasn't real happy about it, and you will see references to it around the forums at that time(http://riseofflight....ating/?p=627193),  but... what are ya gonna do? If you look at the stats for the squad in question, you'll notice that they went from getting 3-500 GK's per month to over 1000 GK's in March. Over 1600 GK's in April! They weren't using any cheat, they were just Gaming the game. More points for GK's... Alot more!!   Their AK numbers varied some, but never went above 571 for any month in question.  The reason they did so much better than the well established squad with far more players that you compare them to is because that squad was a FIGHTER squad who never had more than 500 GK's in any given month.

 

  As I said at the start, I rarely post here, I don't want to get into a pissing match with anyone,(I should however point out that I can piss 10 feet ;) ). I really just want this rumor squashed. Again, if you have more detailed info that would indicate that there is something going on, then Contact Four Speed, or anyone that would verify your findings. You said at the start that you took this to 777 and nothing came of it... here is your chance to talk to a server admin that is more than willing to look into it. There is no reason NOT to if you feel you are correct. 

 

  J5_Gamecock

 

  

 


 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#67 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 18:46

I hope Hammer is putting as much work into his apology as he put into this ridiculous "report".


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#68 unreasonable

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 04:07

Now I have seen everything on this forum: a thread that actually makes me feel a little sympathy towards BSR!  ;)


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#69 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 14:13

You should not feel sympathy for me.  You should be angry at Hammer for smearing a bunch of people for no reason.


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#70 unreasonable

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 15:01

Why not? Sympathy for other people is neither wrong, nor stupid, it simply shows that one can put oneself into someone else's shoes and see in your minds eye how you would feel in that position.

 

As for me feeling angry with Hammer, why? On the face of it it looks as though he was wrong - hence my sympathy for your feelings given the position that put you (and others) in - but he did have a reason: he thought that his data analysis demonstrated something that needed comment and supported his subjective assessments. I agree that it does not. We all make mistakes. I can see why you might feel angry with Hammer, but there is no need for everyone else to follow.

 

Anyway, no more from me on this!


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#71 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 15:12

I can see why you might feel angry with Hammer, but there is no need for everyone else to follow.

 

 

Sure there is.  He's basically accusing everyone whose MP scores improved after Aug 2014 of cheating.  Hell, he's accusing everyone whose scores improve of cheating.  There are a lot of people who should be pissed off at him.


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#72 closed_accont

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 16:37

now I remember an J30 guy, probably the same dude accused me other day when we was flying.
he sad something how suspicious was my shooting (from gunner seat) I've to ask, do you ever know J30_Mein?
I'm sure he can tell you how it works.

well I feel funny and I answered: "that is because I'm an AIMBOT" and he replied "WE know" after he sad some bullshit about at one day a mortal in another a super killer.

So he (OP) is not alone on that such of way of think, it's a shame for this game far from his glorious days, been trolled by people that we (who fly often) don't see much and probably don't know nothing about high level flying skills.
so I ask to honorable pilots who understand how trash is all this and how bad it can be to the game, to came here and put his position to all know who are who and make it clear for, each day less, new incomers.

 

here is part of the chat log:

...

28.08.2015 23:14:09 J30_Hans Richt: Gus...evey time you shot I get blood and oil. Interesting
28.08.2015 23:14:28 GusGT:I'm aimbot
28.08.2015 23:14:40 J30_Hans Richt:We know...
28.08.2015 23:14:45 GusGT: forgot to rise up shields
28.08.2015 23:14:54 GusGT: wait a minute
28.08.2015 23:15:04 GusGT: ShieldUp = true
28.08.2015 23:15:07 GusGT: ok
28.08.2015 23:15:22 J30_Hans Richt: Flyinh since 09 and never see anything like it.
28.08.2015 23:15:29 GusGT: thanks
28.08.2015 23:15:49 GusGT: I play as gunner 6 months before piloting
28.08.2015 23:16:07 GusGT: Got Shoot teach me everthing sabout it
28.08.2015 23:16:27 J30_Hans Richt: Right around March 16 you were normal. March 20 your superman.
28.08.2015 23:16:33 Capt. Teddy Bear: HP 500m at our river entrance
28.08.2015 23:16:35 J30_Hans Richt: Stats bear it out.
28.08.2015 23:16:41 J5_Ice Age: I think he's saying you are a "spectrum Legacy", Gus :)
28.08.2015 23:16:52 GusGT: lol
28.08.2015 23:16:58 =TM= NoClue: its his ceral
28.08.2015 23:17:04 GusGT: no hes the man
28.08.2015 23:17:17 Capt. Teddy Bear: SE5 over the top
28.08.2015 23:17:18 J30_Hans Richt: Stats don't lie.
28.08.2015 23:17:26 =TM= NoClue: Wheaties
28.08.2015 23:17:35 J5_Ice Age: we're on TS, TB
28.08.2015 23:17:42 -NW-I Got Shot: Don't tell the truth either
...

http://stats.newwing.../mission/12324/

 

"não há vitória quando a luta não é justa"
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#73 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 17:06

I've been accused of cheating in the past by J30 Turner Voss and von Hammer.  It's ironic that a squad that has J30 Mein as a member would be calling anyone else out for using a shooting hack.


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#74 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 17:33

28.08.2015 23:16:27 J30_Hans Richt: Right around March 16 you were normal. March 20 your superman.

 

 

Your stats probably improved significantly when Adam took his summer break...


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#75 closed_accont

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 17:41

hehehe that was fun! well I know why it happened, but I'll not answer it like I need to proof I'm not cheater, but there's definily a reason a laughable one....


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#76 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 20:39

J30 Mein is in the top 3 of most accurate shooters that I have encountered in RoF.  So it's pretty funny to see J30 whining about accurate shooting.  I've been looking through the chat for missions flown by von Hammer.  He whines about accurate fire a lot.


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#77 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 21:18

I was informed something to the affect of it's those "J30 guys who are pretty good gunners".

 

No, it's just Mein.


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The toughest part of my job is dealing with incompetent clowns who think they're good at their job.

Free Plank!

 


#78 closed_accont

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Posted 09 November 2015 - 22:42

as a gunner, I can say:
-never follow a crew plane.
-avoid when possible to come from 5 to 7 little higher altitude than target easiest deflection condition.
-never end your pass crossing over the target.
-avoid getting to close to the target.
-when zoon out do not put yourself leveled on same direction of the target at any altitude.

if you a sniper shooter, just kill the gunner first...

 

A good gunner can hit you virtually from any position of 360º incoming or outgoing if he has awareness about how deflection works and if he knows exactly where you are and what your direction in relation to his own plane direction. Mein knows all this thats why he loves to gun on Rollands, the best around view of a crew plane on the game.
When slowest you are, easyer to the gunner will be.

The truth is that the great majority, just put their planes the way they can towards the gunner guns without any plan, after that, they don't believe why they die like flys.
On average, I can beat or put them away eight in ten fights from gunner position against a SINGLE attacker.
only two in ten (one to one fights) I end it unable to keep fighting.

very rare situations the SINGLE attacker disable me and keep himself able to still fighting.


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#79 J5_Gamecock

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 00:15

Why not? Sympathy for other people is neither wrong, nor stupid, it simply shows that one can put oneself into someone else's shoes and see in your minds eye how you would feel in that position.

 

As for me feeling angry with Hammer, why? On the face of it it looks as though he was wrong - hence my sympathy for your feelings given the position that put you (and others) in - but he did have a reason: he thought that his data analysis demonstrated something that needed comment and supported his subjective assessments. I agree that it does not. We all make mistakes. I can see why you might feel angry with Hammer, but there is no need for everyone else to follow.

 

Anyway, no more from me on this!

  

  I disagree Unreasonable.. 

 

   He may have had a reason to say that he had looked into the stats and found something interesting, or even saying " I THINK there may be a hack in the game" but he didn't do that...  He came out here and said "The game has been hacked .. And these are the guys that did it."  Nothing subjective about it. That's a pretty bold accusation to be making all by yourself. 

 

  He claimed he tried to take it up privately but got no response. Who did he take it up with?  If it was 777,and they showed no interest, then that right there should have indicated nothing was wrong.He didn't take it to Four Speed,the Wargrounds server admin. (AFAIK he has yet to do so even when asked to share his data.) I know he never took it up with me,nor with my squad CO.  So who did he contact before deciding to state openly and in such a "Matter of Fact" way that we had hacked ROF?

 

  Just because my demeanor is not the same as BSR, don't think I'm not just as angry. Anyone who cares about and wants the MP community to continue to thrive should be angry as well. Spreading stuff like this is just plain irresponsible.

 

 I feel that he owes us an apology too, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for one. After seeing the chat logs that Gus posted above I see what we're dealing with, I have to say tho, I expected more from what I once felt was one of the more respected squads in ROF... but I think I'll get over it.  

 

  yep,  I'm over it.

 

 

 

  J5_ Gamecock


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Gamecock,The Kickin Chickin   http://www.jasta5.org

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#80 GrahamshereGT

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Posted 10 November 2015 - 02:27

Do what I do, jump in a se5 tilt the over wing gun up, stay just below and fill em with hoiles, works great .


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