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Novice Server attributes used in Advanced Servers?


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#1 J30_von_Hammer

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 02:15

GUN HACKING-

A CASE STUDY OF STATISTICS OF VARIOUS SUSPECT PILOTS

8/21/2015

J30 von Hammer

Jasta 30

 

Over several weeks, I gathered data from the Newwings Warground Statistics for the advanced, 1.5 server. Data covers approximately 2 years. Using personal interaction and noting mention from fellow flyers, I identified suspect pilots to study, and used non-suspect pilots, including myself, for a control data set. I looked at trends, and did a very detailed, in depth study on 1 suspect pilot I felt was a good indicator of a gun hack.

To keep it simple, for this report, I will show the highlight graphs for the data showing only the Sorties flown vs the Score on pilots that fly consistent plane types. Score is affected by other factors, such as a person bombing a lot, or not, in a month, and plane types, but I was able to extract useable data to present here to simply show indicators that a Gun Hack is in operation.

The primary items to note are the 1) sudden jump in scoring, and 2) the month it happened. I pulled data for several pilots, but only show these graphs as examples of what is found in most all of the several suspect pilots that now exists.

Take from this data that in July of 2014, a few people found a way to improve their gunnery within a few days of each other. In March of 2015, another, larger group of pilots have now found the same way to improve gunnery, and I note one graph of a squad that found, and, internally, spread the hack within a few days to fellow squad members.

'With the ‘cat out of the bag’ and the word of hacking starting to spread, it’s becoming more of a problem.  As in Red Baron 3D, if the hack is not stopped, the multi-player game will die, and I am already seeing very valuable players I enjoyed playing with vanish, as most feel without proof, they have no option to get support to address the issue. And along with it any monetary profits for 777. Also, if the same type of engine is being used for BOS then the same hack may be used to exploit that game as well. This would not only represent a loss for 777 but for customers as well, since the multi-player client has invested more than $150.00 dollars or more into ROF and  BOS.

We hope that this report helps to convince you and those of your team that there is a problem within ROF and that it would be in 777 best interest to try an eliminate this current threat as soon as possible.

As in Red Baron 3D, if the hack is not stopped, all that will be left are the hackers on the server, and they will tear up any newcomer and run them out of the game.

 

Figure 1:

A Loner Ace

One of the first to suddenly become effective hitting target

 

Attached File  Figure 1.png   18.8KB   7 downloads

 

Figure 2:

A Squad member.

Greatly Improves at similar time. Item to note is that this sudden improvement happens to a few all about the same time, not randomly.

 

Attached File  Figure 2.png   16.52KB   6 downloads

 

Note the sharp score decline in March and April of 2015 for both super aces above. I attribute this to old hackers suddenly finding themselves on the wrong end of the hack guns. By May, they are aware and now fly more cautiously, which shows in the scoring of the newer hackers.

 

Figure 3:

Below Average Pilot becomes Excellent

October to February, was indicating a try-hard attempt, with lots of bombing- as is normal. Sorties tripled to 300+.

On March 16th, details show change in hit power, and going into April, hack in full use, score skyrockets

 

Attached File  Figure 3.png   14.81KB   4 downloads

 

Figure 4:

Squad rises from Average to Super Elite- a Focus graph

Between March 16 to March 25, Details show hit power suddenly improves on 4 members, similar to, and including the one shown above, all within a few days. In May sorties flown dropped to around 1000, similar to February, but scoring was still double over Feb and not with bombing.

 

Attached File  Figure 4.png   10.95KB   5 downloads

 

Figure 5:

Below Average pilot vs Loner Ace

Interesting sub-detail showing the success of the Below Average Pilot against the Loner Ace. As with most normal pilots, a lucky ‘shoot down’ of 1 in a month against Loner is bound to happen, and is rare. But note the sudden success rate and ability to shoot down the Loner going from March and on. Below Average Pilot is now one of the highest scoring pilots vs the Loner Ace, yet flies no better- just gunnery hits in the few shots he gets.

 

Attached File  Figure 5.png   12.74KB   5 downloads

 

 

I post this report based on several years experience in manufacturing and quality control, so I'm using similar formulas that find defects to indicate the change in hit power, wounds, scores, and shoot downs. Anyone who knows Six Sigma or similar will understand.

I only wish to help, as I see this game following the exact same pathway that RB3D took when it was left to fail at the hands of those who like to hack.

I will not provide any names, so don't ask. The information is what is important, and human nature will run it's course when allowed to, so I won't blame hackers for trying, but I wish they wouldn't

I do ask that if anyone with this hack would like to private mail me with how it's done, I would like to see it. Your name will be forgotten and never revealed. I will test it, prove it, and forward the info to 777 so they will be able to fix it. It would be an honorable thing to do.

I am posting this report here, as I could not gain interest privately.

I will not respond nor discuss this report in this posting. It is what it is, and I know from my own experience that something changed overnight with certain people, and with lots of data, I call it proof and stand behind it. When you get one short burst that oils my engine to the point the bearings squeal, and prop locks up in a few seconds, plus heavy level 3 or 4 wounds, or death, all from a turning plane at a distance, that is not normal, and from hundreds of hours of flying this game, I notice a significant change when it occurs. And now I have 2 years of very intense data to back it up.

All data is taken before the June update. If the game is around another year or so, I'll gather date from June 2015 forward, and will still be able identify those who have something special going for them.

 

I would suggest 777 remove Improved Gunnery from RoF totally, as a test for a month or two, and see if that stops it. What is a few weeks of change to know?

I would still recommend slowing gun rate of fire down to around 420 rounds per minute, which is based on actual use of maxim type guns.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#2 =HillBilly=

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 03:50

Edited because of rude posts from others


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#3 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 05:17

I hate to point out the hilariously obvious reason for a score increase in August 2014.  The scoring system on Wargrounds was changed.


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#4 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 05:20

Also, tell Turner Voss that a "gun hack" is a lot less effective if he'd just check his 6 occasionally.


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#5 J99=Hardy

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 09:41

Edited because I don't wan't to participate any discussion of that tone.


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img_3834.png


#6 J30_Kaiser

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 14:43

MAN!  Listen to them cry foul.  Everyone wants to cut this down, but yet no one actually looks to see if there's any validity to it.  Ok, just ignore it then.  When all you have are hacks flying, and 777 can no longer afford to keep running the servers at a loss, maybe it'll sink in then.

 

Go back to sleep...   All is well.....


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#7 J30_Kaiser

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 14:45

Throwing a bag of burning poop into the forum, and then refusing to discuss it, isn't exactly "standing behind it".  It's actually pretty cowardly.

Cowardly??  Perhaps there's just no sense in arguing with someone who's only goal is to win an argument.....or maybe cover their own behinds...  Who knows...


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#8 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 14:48

Cowardly??  .

 

Yes, cowardly.  He's making accusations with virtually no evidence at all.  Then he runs away and refuses to defend it.  That is cowardly.

 

BTW, at least one member of his squad has repeatedly accused me of cheating.  I consider it to be a compliment.


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#9 =HillBilly=

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 14:49

Edited because of rude posts from others


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#10 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 14:58

 but yet no one actually looks to see if there's any validity to it.  

 

I looked to see if it was valid.  He has 2 graphs that show people suddenly getting a lot more points .  I checked the Wargrounds stats.  They changed the scoring system at the exact point that he shows a couple of people getting a lot more points.  Not to mention that "points" are practically useless for measuring whether someone is cheating.  This "report" is ridiculous nonsense.


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#11 J99=Hardy

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 15:07

Edited because I don't wan't to participate any discussion of that tone.


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img_3834.png


#12 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 16:37

I just figured out who the pilot in "figure 2" is.  He's going to have a good laugh when I tell him you think he's cheating.


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#13 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 16:55

One other thing, Hammer, the plotted entry for Aug 2014 on figure 1 should be lower.  It looks like you plotted a point score around 9500.  It really should be closer to 8500.


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#14 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 17:57

I understand von Hammers desire to not discuss it in topic - as these discussions just don't lead anywhere -  but i have my doubts.

First, without the names, it is impossible to independently verify von Hammers findings. Nowadays I'm sceptical of people throwing coloured graphs in my direction and saying "trust me, you have my word these are true". I'm not saying they aren't, but only thing I can really be sure of is that von Hammer believes they are true.

Second, there are factors that affect my own effectiveness, both in scoring points and actual air combat, and we don't know enough of von Hammers method to know if these can falsify his findings:

-Train strafing and bombing - easy way to get points, and only thing you can do on empty server. If you have lots of free time in hours when servers are empty and amuse yourself with this, your score will suddenly rise.

 

-Landing your points. If you make a habit of landing on airfield after you score kills, your score will rise.

-Teamwork - if you fly in same hours as other team member(s) and you work together, both your scores will jump (at the same time) compared to months when you are lone-wolfing. Especially if you are bad spotter who needs to be unleashed on the target type :) . This includes not only better downing targets, but better chance to land your points (top cover) and affects your confidence. Same with making friends outside your squadron, it will be visible in your stats.

 

- Planes and side you fly. One evening flying D.Vas while outnumbering is worth few evenings in Hanriot or Spad while outnumbered for me, but I fly both ways, depending on outside factors.

 

- Flying in noob rich or lean enviroment, which changes from one month to another.

- Getting more kills via new better internet connection.

 

- Getting more kills via new better sim hardware. At least one pilot I know bought a hack to his Logitech 3d Pro called "Warthog" and is getting more and more proficient from month to month.

 

-Pilots learning to game the game, exploiting "features" such as melting wings.

 

- RL issues affecting pilots flying hours, confidence, ability to concentrate, dexterity. If pilot persists with flying when less than fit to, his stats will jump suddenly when he gets to fly in "normal" conditions.


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#15 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 18:16

I understand von Hammers desire to not discuss it in topic - as these discussions just don't lead anywhere 

 

But accusing people of cheating without any evidence is going to lead somewhere?

 

I can give you the name of one of the pilots he's accusing of cheating.  It's me.   I'll tell you the other one after we have a good laugh about it this evening.


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#16 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 18:18

I understand von Hammers desire to not discuss it in topic - as these discussions just don't lead anywhere -  but i have my doubts.

First, without the names, it is impossible to independently verify von Hammers findings. Nowadays I'm sceptical of people throwing coloured graphs in my direction and saying "trust me, you have my word these are true". I'm not saying they aren't, but only thing I can really be sure of is that von Hammer believes they are true.

Second, there are factors that affect my own effectiveness, both in scoring points and actual air combat, and we don't know enough of von Hammers method to know if these can falsify his findings:

-Train strafing and bombing - easy way to get points, and only thing you can do on empty server. If you have lots of free time in hours when servers are empty and amuse yourself with this, your score will suddenly rise.

 

-Landing your points. If you make a habit of landing on airfield after you score kills, your score will rise.

-Teamwork - if you fly in same hours as other team member(s) and you work together, both your scores will jump (at the same time) compared to months when you are lone-wolfing. Especially if you are bad spotter who needs to be unleashed on the target type :) . This includes not only better downing targets, but better chance to land your points (top cover) and affects your confidence. Same with making friends outside your squadron, it will be visible in your stats.

 

- Planes and side you fly. One evening flying D.Vas while outnumbering is worth few evenings in Hanriot or Spad while outnumbered for me, but I fly both ways, depending on outside factors.

 

- Flying in noob rich or lean enviroment, which changes from one month to another.

- Getting more kills via new better internet connection.

 

- Getting more kills via new better sim hardware. At least one pilot I know bought a hack to his Logitech 3d Pro called "Warthog" and is getting more and more proficient from month to month.

 

-Pilots learning to game the game, exploiting "features" such as melting wings.

 

- RL issues affecting pilots flying hours, confidence, ability to concentrate, dexterity. If pilot persists with flying when less than fit to, his stats will jump suddenly when he gets to fly in "normal" conditions.

 

You forgot one method to dramatically increase your score.  The scoring system on Wargrounds changed at the exact same time that the people he's accusing of cheating started getting higher scores.


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#17 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 18:46

and used non-suspect pilots, including myself, for a control data set

 

I have an idea that you might want to consider in the future.  I think it's likely that you did not notice that Wargrounds changed their stats system because you used some terrible pilots as your control group.  The new system rewards staying alive, and you aren't very good at staying alive.  Next time don't use yourself in the control group.


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#18 =HillBilly=

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 19:22

Edited because of rude posts from others


 


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#19 1PL-Husar

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 19:26

 

I would suggest 777 remove Improved Gunnery from RoF totally, as a test for a month or two, and see if that stops it. What is a few weeks of change to know?

What? doesn't make any sense to me.


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#20 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 19:30

LOL  Come on now zip-up the "Hack" and post it so everyone can be a "Hack". :P  

 

OK, here is the "hack":

 

103013.jpg


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#21 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 19:32

What? doesn't make any sense to me.

 

None of it makes any sense.  They're butthurt about getting shot down a bunch of times.


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#22 =HillBilly=

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 19:32

Edited because of rude posts from others


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#23 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 19:50

09.06.2015 01:36:36
J30 Turner Voss:
placebo
 
09.06.2015 01:36:54
Leprechaun:
you still got your wings
 
09.06.2015 01:37:19
J30 Turner Voss:
that was an a10 tank killer
 
09.06.2015 01:37:36
Leprechaun:
that was a spad
 
09.06.2015 01:37:37
J30 Turner Voss:
you're in the wrong era
 
09.06.2015 01:37:43
J30 Turner Voss:
not in this game
 
09.06.2015 01:37:49
J30 von Hammer:
new killer cone of fire
 
09.06.2015 01:38:28
Leprechaun:
i was about 50m away and ytou were straight and level
 
09.06.2015 01:38:46
J30 Turner Voss:
would love a fair fight with u one day
 
09.06.2015 01:39:39
Leprechaun:
no such thing as a fair fight with a spad

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#24 FourSpeed

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 20:27

As this analysis involves our server, I too, am quite interested in the methodology, and would be happy to discuss it in PM with the OP.

 

Certainly, as BSR mentions, the scoring system was changed, and in fact, I've done some minor tweaks to it as well, even more recently.

 

Further, Trupobaw raises a number of valid questions, so far more than names, I'm much more interested in your exact methodology and assumptions:

 

A> So I can potentially verify the data

B> So I can potentially look deeper, if warranted

 

In my professional capacity, I work with statistical models in the Finance industry, so I'm familiar with Six-Sigma, and (more usefully) statistical modeling through logistic regression (and other) techniques.

 

I have no current opinion on your hypothesis, or your numbers, but I will say that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof", so if there is no means to independantly verify your results, the veracity of them degrades to "he siad, she said".

 

Once again, this needn't be in open forum if you wish -- feel free to PM me.

 

 

Regards,

4 :icon_e_salute:

 

 


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#25 =HillBilly=

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 20:58

Edited because of rude posts from others


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#26 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 21:04

Accusing someone of cheating because you didn't know that the points system was changed seems like the sort of thing that you should apologize for publicly. 


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#27 FourSpeed

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 21:20

I think I can help you out with the methodology.

 

"We keep getting shot down!!!?!!  waaaaaaah!!!  WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!"

 

It's always snark with you, isn't it??? 

 

Well, unlike you, I'm not going to denigrate the OP on this -- certainly not without giving the issue deeper consideration first.

 

Goodness knows that straight-up, there is all manner of weird sh*t that happens in this game, even with simple things like accuracy stats, logs, lag and connection issues, and that doesn't even begin to cover the goofiness that master server issues introduce, without even considering potential malicious exploits.

 

Many of us have experienced first-hand, bizarre crap like invisible planes, guys who have working icons (in WG) once in awhile, aircraft crashes that disco multiple people in the server, and other stuff that shouldn't even be possible, but does occasionally occur.

 

While, to-date, I've yet to see any compelling proof of cheating (beyond some side-switching, balloon-dar and TS antics), I'm concerned enough with some of the other stuff we *have* seen, that I'm at least willing to learn more about what the OP is calculating.

 

Maybe he does just hate you, and if so, that won't surprise anybody who's ever dealt with your ongoing BS over the years, but maybe, just maybe, someone might have found a way to reliably re-create some of the above issues we've seen in this game.  Were that true, you'd be right at the front of the line screaming for a dev fix.

 

So, if he is willing to share his analysis, in-depth, I for one, am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and look at his work...

 

If it IS just stats-mongering, then, that too would become apparent, and you can get back to the forum pvp that you seem so fond of...

 

 

Regards,

4 :icon_e_salute:


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#28 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 21:24

It's always snark with you, isn't it??? 

 

Well, unlike you, I'm not going to denigrate the OP on this -- certainly not without giving the issue deeper consideration first.

 

 

Unlike you, I'm the one being accused of cheating.  And I've already demonstrated that it's laughable BS.  So I'm fine with denigrating him now.  In fact, I'd like to make his humiliation more public.


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#29 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 21:25

 

If it IS just stats-mongering, then, that too would become apparent, and you can get back to the forum pvp that you seem so fond of...

 

 

It's already apparent.  I figured it out within about 5 minutes of seeing his post.


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#30 J30_Kaiser

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 01:41

I looked to see if it was valid.  He has 2 graphs that show people suddenly getting a lot more points .  I checked the Wargrounds stats.  They changed the scoring system at the exact point that he shows a couple of people getting a lot more points.  Not to mention that "points" are practically useless for measuring whether someone is cheating.  This "report" is ridiculous nonsense.

If that's the case, why doesn't it show the same for the rest of the players?   Only just a select few.  Your argument really has no teeth.


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#31 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 01:50

If that's the case, why doesn't it show the same for the rest of the players?   Only just a select few.  Your argument really has no teeth.

 

It does show the same for all the top pilots.


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#32 J30_Kaiser

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 01:51

But accusing people of cheating without any evidence is going to lead somewhere?

 

I can give you the name of one of the pilots he's accusing of cheating.  It's me.   I'll tell you the other one after we have a good laugh about it this evening.

So, in game, who is "me"??  I've seen no "BraveSirRobin" in game?  Maybe I'm just old and have missed it over the last couple of years...   All I know is, that within a months time, I've noticed that "certain" pilots seem to have become super aces.   One pass, engine, plane, and pilot severely wounded or killed...consistently after over a year of just average damage..and only in one squad...??   There there are a couple of pilots that shadow the rest, and when the others are tied up, damaged, swoops in and steals the kill...(poor sportsmanship for sure, but hacking, I don't know about those.   I'd be interested in knowing who "me" is.


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#33 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 01:54

Here are the July stats

 

http://stats.newwing...ng.org/tour/23/

 

Here are the Aug stats:

 

http://stats.newwing...ng.org/tour/24/

 

Notice how all the top pilots increased significantly.  THEY CHANGED THE STATS SYSTEM!


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#34 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 01:55

So, in game, who is "me"??

 

Figure it out yourself.


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#35 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 02:16

Did your mom have any kids that lived....or should I say, with a brain??   You sound like a spoiled little brat caught with his hand in the cookie jar, screaming it's someone else's fault, or the cat done it...   I know it may be difficult for you, but at least TRY to sprout one operating brain cell.

 

LOL  Take a look at the overall stats for Jul 14 and Aug 14.


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The toughest part of my job is dealing with incompetent clowns who think they're good at their job.

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#36 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 03:48

Here are the top 5 scores.

 

Jul 14

2007
1591
1364
1308
1116
 
Aug 14
12173
8358
4312
3763
3262
 
Do you morons see a pattern?  They all went way up.  Look at the kill totals.  Some are actually lower.  So kills went down, but scores increased dramatically.  Someone was cheating alright.  I'd like an investigation on how you morons managed to get past the 4th grade.

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The toughest part of my job is dealing with incompetent clowns who think they're good at their job.

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#37 Arfsix

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 04:18

Unlike you, I'm the one being accused of cheating.  And I've already demonstrated that it's laughable BS.  So I'm fine with denigrating him now.  In fact, I'd like to make his humiliation more public.

Sir,

     I have read all the posts to this topic and cannot find any instance of anyone accusing you of cheating. Could you please point out the message you are referring to?


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The heavens were the grandstands and only the gods were spectators. The stake was the world, the forfeit was the player's place at the table, and the game had no recess. It was the most dangerous of all sports and the most fascinating. It got in the blood like wine. It aged men forty years in forty days. It ruined nervous systems in an hour. -- Elliott White Springs, 13 Victories


#38 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 04:33

The stats in figure 1 are mine.
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The toughest part of my job is dealing with incompetent clowns who think they're good at their job.

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#39 Ice_Age

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 06:19

I wonder if J30_Von_Hammer has ever flown with the individuals, or indeed, the squads whose integrity he is calling into question? 

 

I'm guessing no.   Perhaps if he had, he would see that there is no magic going on here.  The guys and squads who are being accused put in a lot of hard work to constantly improve.  What's more, these people wouldn't want to cheat, even if they could.


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#40 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 06:46

Sir,

     Once again it would appear that your lack of communication skills

 

My communication skills are just fine.  Whether or not I insulted them has nothing to do with the argument.  It's blatantly obvious that the stats that were posted are not evidence of cheating.  Mocking their stupidity for thinking they caught me cheating is just a bonus.

 

     Finally, and really this is actually the most important point of the post, no one cares about your opinion anymore. You have abused too many people and tried to hijack too many topics in this forum. You have overstayed your welcome. Why don't you go sit in the corner until you grow up, or throw a tantrum. We really don't care!

 

Maybe you should be more concerned about people who are accusing others of cheating with absolutely no evidence.  If you don't care about that sort of behavior, run along and find a different thread to read.


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The toughest part of my job is dealing with incompetent clowns who think they're good at their job.

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