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Fighting in the vertical (how does Winged Warrior do it?)


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#1 No56_Waggaz

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Posted 26 October 2015 - 23:56

S all! I'm starting to master bouncing, extending, climbing, then attacking again. It will get me 5-10 kills on a server in a session but it is a long and drawn-out process. Winged Warrior also energy fights but I've watched him get into loop battles which he rarely loses. When I try looping up and down I always lose and eventually find the bandit on my 6.

It feels good to be a competent BnZ but I want to know WW's trick. Can someone explain to me how it works? I think he does it by always staying in the vertical and never bringing in a horizontal component so the engine performance is the leading factor, and the dives and climbs with insane efficiency.

Can anyone explain how he gets so many kills this way? He will regularly do it fighting against the same aircraft which baffles me even more!
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#2 =HillBilly=

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 00:05

 

 

 Winged Warrior also energy fights but I've watched him get into loop battles which he rarely loses.

I've  seen him do this a many of times, it is something like a "Plankturn" in the vertical. :icon_e_salute:


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#3 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 16:23

Yeah, you don't want to loop, sure way to look like a noob and get your ass shot off. 

 

Hammerhead is likely the manuever you speak of.  And most importantly, what is he flying?  I suspect it is likely German, because the Entente a/c don't climb very efficiently with their thin wings to prevail in the vertical for very long.


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#4 unreasonable

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 16:57

Yeah, you don't want to loop, sure way to look like a noob and get your ass shot off. 

 

Hammerhead is likely the manuever you speak of.  And most importantly, what is he flying?  I suspect it is likely German, because the Entente a/c don't climb very efficiently with their thin wings to prevail in the vertical for very long.

 

Aiee this last part is not right! If you bounce and zoom climb to top out with a hammerhead it is all about speed not lift: actually if you are climbing (or diving) nearly vertically you would be better of with a zero AoA and not generating any lift at all: you will create less drag and top out higher.   I doubt that wing profile makes much difference over such a short distance, but if it did, a thin wing would be better for boom and zoom tactics. Thick wing comes into it's own in an extended climb, eg a spiral climb.

 

Agree though that hammerhead should be better than a loop - should top out higher, takes no longer to do the reversal, and should make it easier to keep a bandit below in view.


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#5 FourSpeed

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 20:33

Yeah, you don't want to loop, sure way to look like a noob and get your ass shot off. 

 

Hammerhead is likely the manuever you speak of.  And most importantly, what is he flying?  I suspect it is likely German, because the Entente a/c don't climb very efficiently with their thin wings to prevail in the vertical for very long.

 

He's one of the more capable SE5a pilots out there (that I've seen) -- I've only encountered him once (in New Wings Fast & Furious), a couple months back, and he did a very good job with Energy management and BnZ tactics.

 

I didn't get to observe too much, because it was one of those rare days where several folks were flying in FnF, and like a good, tactically sound BnZ'er, he was picking his moments to bounce in when his opponent(s) were already engaged. He reminded me somewhat of Teddy's approach to combat.

 

 

Regards,

4 :icon_e_salute:


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#6 No56_Waggaz

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 23:27

His usual mount is an SE5. I was secretly hoping that this post would lure him out! I'm going to try the hammerhead in single player for a bit against expert AI. I have a feeling that it will serve me better than getting into a looping match. S!
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#7 CGardner99

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 02:31

  Yes It is the Se5a I use the most but I also enjoy the DVllF. To me they are the 2 best energy fighters as modeled in ROF.  What I do is merely energy management and the easiest way to do that is to use the vertical. So my advice is learn the basic maneuvers first like cuban 8, wingover(do not use the hammerhead) and the chandelle(aka immelmann). Then after reading a few good books on combat maneuvering and tactics, defintely learn the low and high yo-yo and when to use them (Requiem did some nice youtube stuff watch all those).  Suffice it to say I fly the SE5a a lot so my next advice is to learn your mount, fly it till it becomes second nature. In reality all airplanes in ROF can use these tatics and maneuvers that are the cornerstones of aircombat and all the good pilots use the vertical (I know I am dealing with a Ace when he uses the vertical). Turning in the vertical takes up very little horizontal space and allows you to store your energy and spend it on the way down to get your shot and if not successful you simply pull up usually into a high yo-yo and try again or if things look bad extend. I could fill pages of tactics here but air combat is so very fluid and there is no magic maneuver for every situation so use the most powerful weapon you have (your mind) and think tactically while flying instead of just charging in guns blazing and hoping for the best. Will be glad to show you a few pointers Waggaz so get your SE5a ready, map the stabilizer trim on the SE5a and map a key to tilt and fire your lewis gun seperately.  I use 20% fuel and set my gun convergence to 200 m and the rest we can workout as we go. 

 

Salute and good luck!!

Winged Warrior


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#8 kimmy_yeager

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 15:42

So basically he uses sound tactics but then games the game:  "map a key to tilt and fire your lewis gun seperately.  I use 20% fuel"

 

Because in WWI they always left with less than a full fuel load and could easily manipulate the overwing lewis in combat (PROTIP:  No they did not).   Don't forget teamspeak like the real WWI pliots.

 

Bottom line: sure it looks neat and is hard to counter... but unless that fuel load goes up and the MG stays put, his in fantasy land.. and that's the reason why it so effective.


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#9 =HillBilly=

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 16:03

 

 

. but unless that fuel load goes up and the MG stays put, his in fantasy land

kimmy read before you jump.https://en.wikipedia...Foster_mounting

 

P.S. only Winged Warrior knows how much fuel load he flies with.


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#10 =CfC=FatherTed

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 16:12

To be fair kimmy, the question asked was about RoF, not RL, and so the reply was about tactics used in the game, not RL.


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#11 CGardner99

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 17:59


 

P.S. only Winged Warrior knows how much fuel load he flies with.

 

No... fuel load is a known quanitiy, just check my stats on Aces Falling web page ,it shows your fuel loadouts (down at the bottom right). I fly with 20% because that gives me 25 min flying time per sortie where only 8 min is needed. Now I have seen lower fuel loads (the turn and burn guys really get low here) but my point is, if a WW1 pilot flew 8 minute sorties then I'm sure they would fly with less fuel. Now on the NW server you better carry  a load because the sorties are so long tactically that makes sense,but then again it is a totally different kind of fighting then occurs at AF.

 

So basically he uses sound tactics but then games the game:  "map a key to tilt and fire your lewis gun seperately.  I use 20% fuel"

 

Because in WWI they always left with less than a full fuel load and could easily manipulate the overwing lewis in combat (PROTIP:  No they did not).   Don't forget teamspeak like the real WWI pliots.

 

Bottom line: sure it looks neat and is hard to counter... but unless that fuel load goes up and the MG stays put, his in fantasy land.. and that's the reason why it so effective.

 

Now for the foster mount it was absolutely used in that manner.

I Never use teamspeak.

And just to point out the elephant in the room... reagardless of fuel weight all the air combat here is fantasy. So enjoy it!!!!!

 

 

Winged Warrior


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#12 =HillBilly=

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 18:38

W W again  :icon_e_salute:


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#13 No56_Waggaz

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 00:21

Winged Warrior you are a true gentleman! I'm still getting to know the SE5 and had one or two accidents with wings falling off and a collision (sorry Immortal!), but by the end of my session tonight I had a couple of great fights, most of which I won. I could still use some one-on-one help if you have time soon. S!
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#14 DrDetroit

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 00:39

Great stuff - thanks for the pointers guys!   Will help hone my skills and relieve my sloppiness. 

 

Good day!

 

DrDetroit


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#15 Tycoon

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 02:00

Do you need to use trim when you have a ffb stick? my stick just always sorta centers itself so it flies level.


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#16 CGardner99

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 03:15

 I'm still getting to know the SE5 and had one or two accidents with wings falling off and a collision (sorry Immortal!), but by the end of my session tonight I had a couple of great fights, most of which I won. I could still use some one-on-one help if you have time soon. S!

Yeah the wings still fold for me too....though not as often...you learn to be smooth with your imputs.  Well good to here... was trying to get team speak to work so we could talk, very hard to instruct while trying to fly. Maybe we can get on a server with less people and work on where you have questions or feel weak .Till then nothing will you do you more good than just fly it, its a wonderful machine the fastest in ROF below 2000 m and rolls wonderfully so always remember if it gets tight just firewall the throttle and dip her nose and all your troubles will be left behind..S.

 

Also did not know how your response curves are set but if you do not own a FFB stick then you need to set the pitch curve down. My setting is 40% down, your mileage may vary but its easy to set.

1. Get in game select the SE5a(do not touch your joystick)...when you enter the plane look outside you will notice that the the elevator is not level with the rest of the stabilizer.

2. Move the stick back and fowards and release you will notice that the elevatror has changed its relationship to the stabilizer...what you want is for it to be as close to level as possible so siimply adjust the pitch curve.

3. Now while looking outside at your elevator on the left side, zoom in as much as possible press esc and select options, go to responses and select the SE5a, open the ptich setting and while looking at the elevator adjust the pitch curve in real time by moving the pitch dot down, the change will not register till you release the dot, when you see that the elevator is level with the stabilizer go on to the next line.

4. Once you find the setting that gives you this check the smooth box to the left and hit apply and you are set.

 

If you have any questions let me know I will try to explain it better!

 

 

Do you need to use trim when you have a ffb stick? my stick just always sorta centers itself so it flies level.

Yes! Tycoon the trim will work with a ffb stick. You are trimming the stabalizer on the SE5a it actually moves the whole elevator assembly...get in the game and watch as you adjust it on the ground. Trimming the plane will allow you to fly hands off in a climb or level flight and allows for more pitch authority under certain conditions. So yes map it its very important to flying the SE5a well.

 

 

 

Winged Warrior


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#17 Tycoon

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 03:40

Ok thanks, glad to see another se5 lover.  :icon_e_biggrin:


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#18 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 11:07

Since we're discussing trimming... what, if anything, you use the trim for in actual combat? Or what do you pre-set it to before fight? Level flight? Least drag? Something else?


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#19 CGardner99

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 16:26

Since we're discussing trimming... what, if anything, you use the trim for in actual combat? Or what do you pre-set it to before fight? Level flight? Least drag? Something else?

 

  Yes I am constantly changing the trim in flight for combat, take off and landing. When I take off I pitch for 65 mph(Vy) by using a sight picture ,set the trim to hold that attitude (all you have to do now is hold a little right rudder and she will climb perfectly hands off) once on station I trim for level flight.  Now she is trimmed for about 120 mph,  when I have found what I intend to bounce, as I dive I roll in some down trim to give me a steady dive angel which is why I believe the SE5a is the best gun platform in game and why almost 30% of my kills end right there. If I failed to get him I usually pitch back up to about 10 degrees above (Vy) till I intercept (Vy) then set trim to hold it. Then as I dive back down I trim for dive angel and do it again and again till he is dead or I need to extend.
  Now combat is tricky, I use it more by feel and experience.  One example I was trying to turn inside a DVllf at speed and simply rolled in a little up trim to allow me to gain a little more pitch authority too pull some lead on him and nailed him. But by doing so you are bleeding speed and energy so be careful and always have a exit plan. I have a CH FighterStick which has a realistic trim button so hopefully your stick has one too. Just like real flying you are constantly changing trim for certain conditions of flight be it attitude, speed or just simply more pitch authority so you can finish off that bad guy. I have hundreds of hours in the SE5a and I'm still learning it. I hope this has helped, but truthfully practice and experience are your best teachers here.

 

Winged Warrior


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#20 Tycoon

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 02:24

So if you don't get him on the first pass do you go straight up and then back and repeat until you get him?


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#21 CGardner99

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 13:28

Not straight up(unless it calls for that) ..I pitch for 10 degrees above (Xy)best rate of climb.So if a plane is coming right at you and to spoil his shot, yes go straight up but if its a bounce with you just pulling up to store your energy for another go then yes do the 10 degrees above (Xy) and as your speed falls to 65mph hold that attitude. When I was learning to fly to get my private pilots license I was taught to use sight pictures. So when climbing at 65 mph look at the cockpit and it relation to the horizon, find something that allows you to easily identify this(for me its just a few degrees below the left cockpit and windscreen junction). So I pitch for 10 degrees above this till the airspeed hits 65 mph then I pitch for (Xy). Now you are climbing at your best rate. But if he is trying to pitch up to get you then by all means add in a gentle turn left or right and try to place your wing tip at his tail as you look down at him. The SE5a while maneverable as modeled in ROF will not out turn any german scout (save the DXll) below 110 mph above that it will stay with any of them. So simply stay fast (or energy aware) as you can and this takes practice. Trust me, when I first started flying the SE5a I was horrible because I still used it like it was a Camel(thanks to 777 porking it ). Remember your most powerful weapon is your mind use it, think tactically and fly aggressively till its time to get the hell out of there (that truly is the beauty of the SE5).

 

Winged Warrior


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#22 Ceowulf

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Posted 30 October 2015 - 16:47

WW,

I'm learning a lot from this thread.  Here's what I'v been wondering, regarding fighting in the vertical:

 

I notice you get your shots off really quickly, as if you're making snap shots as you pull through a target, but you're actually getting the hits.  Is that from really quick, precise adjustments at the last second or good situational awareness so your nose swings through exactly where the bad guy is and you don't need to adjust?  

 

Thanks,

 

LP<><


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#23 CGardner99

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 01:29

  Not sure what you want here, most bounces are from above and behind which presents a pretty big target almost hard not to get hits now high deflection shots are just from doing it alot almost without thinking. So just keep practicing also make sure your sights are centered and depending on plane your gun convergence, though mileage varies. I use 200 m for most but if im flying for the Germans I use 300m so I get more chances verses fleeing Spads and SE5's. Some dont use it at all so they can fire at unhistoric ranges.

 

 

Winged Warrior


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#24 1PL-Husar

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 08:54

This thread has it's value. I would like to see track from yours pov when you execute bounce and disengage with all important things you said above. Any way thanks to you and OP who asked you :)
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#25 CGardner99

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Posted 31 October 2015 - 19:19

Hmmm...I have tried that ,it seems you need some other program running outside ROF to do that. If anyone could educate me on how this is done and what program I need I would be glad to share. I do have some tracks that where recorded in game not sure they can be shared between systems and they are quite large.

 

 

Winged Warrior


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#26 Tycoon

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 01:00

Not straight up(unless it calls for that) ..I pitch for 10 degrees above (Xy)best rate of climb.

 

 

I'm a little confused here, is best rate of climb the angle you have at 65 mph?


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#27 CGardner99

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 02:19

I'm a little confused here, is best rate of climb the angle you have at 65 mph?

 

When I was learning to fly to get my private pilots license I was taught to use sight pictures. So when climbing at 65 mph look at the cockpit and it relation to the horizon, find something that allows you to easily identify this(for me its just a few degrees above the left cockpit and windscreen junction). So I pitch for 10 degrees above this till the airspeed hits 65 mph then I pitch for best rate of climb. This all refers to attitude not airspeed.

 

I dont know how to explain it any better...when you dive you are going much faster so in the intial pull I go 10 degrees above the attitude you would use for best rate of climb till you hit 65 mph then I pitch for 65...I am using sight pictures here not the airspeed indicater.


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#28 Tycoon

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 02:44

When I was learning to fly to get my private pilots license I was taught to use sight pictures. So when climbing at 65 mph look at the cockpit and it relation to the horizon, find something that allows you to easily identify this(for me its just a few degrees above the left cockpit and windscreen junction). So I pitch for 10 degrees above this till the airspeed hits 65 mph then I pitch for best rate of climb. This all refers to attitude not airspeed.

 

I dont know how to explain it any better...when you dive you are going much faster so in the intial pull I go 10 degrees above the attitude you would use for best rate of climb till you hit 65 mph then I pitch for 65...I am using sight pictures here not the airspeed indicater.

Ok I see, I was just wondering if 65mph is the optimal climb speed, I see how to do it now thanks.


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#29 CGardner99

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 03:09

Okay took some pictures...form left to right

The first is (Xy) +10 The more I look at it though it might be a little more than 10 degrees

The 2nd is the sight pic for (Xy) best rate of climb

The 3rd is level flight

Attached Files


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#30 unreasonable

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 05:05

Hmmm...I have tried that ,it seems you need some other program running outside ROF to do that. If anyone could educate me on how this is done and what program I need I would be glad to share. I do have some tracks that where recorded in game not sure they can be shared between systems and they are quite large.

 

 

Winged Warrior

 

Trackfiles are large but if you edit inside RoF I believe you can make them smaller. People post track files in the forum from time to time in Zip form.

 

If you are talking about making a film of a track you need a program like FRAPS. This has a free version, which maybe OK for very short movie clips, for longer clips you need the paid version. You set up a start-stop record button and then start RoF, play your track, and record avi files using FRAPS. These are assembled into a coherent film with narrative or captions etc as mp4 files using something like MovieMaker - also free as part of Windows Essentials. It is crap but good enough: all my films are made with it.

 

The easiest way to share these is by using a YouTube account.

 

All a bit of a bother if you are not into making films, but if you post a track file containing your plane in a b'n'z I am sure someone could turn it into a movie and publish it if the demand is there.


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#31 Plank

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 08:40

Chaps,

 

having been shot down by Mr Gardner. ( Salute! )

 

I would be very interested in viewing some tracks if he woudl like to put some up.

 

( We had a few tangles over inspiration island, I lost, as ususal...)

 

Salute!

 

Plank. ( Gosh,  how times flies... )


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#32 1PL-Husar

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 09:37

Track files are highly compressible. Btw if you have Nvidia graphics card there is big chance that you have shadow play - witch can be used to record in game play and it has low performance impact. Files are big but i compress them using mencoder and they still have good quality (ratio is approximately from 1GB to 100 Mb).
Any way in game track files are the best because you can see everything better, change pov etc.
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#33 CGardner99

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 23:19

I do have a Nvidia video card..got the program,it is easy to use, just tried it for a few minutes...got a few kills....now just need to learn to edit and add some voice comments and get that program to compress it.

 

 

Thanks,

Winged Warrior


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#34 Plank

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 00:43

Dear Mr Gardner

 

If you upload track files of your exploits we can play play them back to our hearts content,

pausing, zooming, hanging PoV and slo mo, to wring the most educational benefit out of 'em.

 

I have button combo to start the track recorder: Left shift + Trigger.

 

a bit of lead in and lead out would be good as a very short track is a bit fiddly to use.

(blink and you miss it)

 

I am bafled as to why people don't really use the track recorder for educational purposes.

It is a fantastic tool.

 

The trick is to record only the important bits.... To keep the track terse.

and label the track file name aptly.

 

Salute!

 

Plonk. (oops)


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#35 1PL-Husar

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 06:30

Why you ask? Because adding voice commentaries would have to be in separate file and you with author have to find way to synchronize time. It can be done :)
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#36 Plank

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 06:37

Ah. Commentaries. Yes of course. Gosh. I was not thinking about them...

 

But still, tracks are really really really cool....  and pretty simple to organise. :)

 

S!

 

P.


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#37 JoeCrow

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 07:31

This helps. It is much more controlled than a vertical zoom-climb or hammerhead...very useful for repeated diving attacks from an energy-advantage position. Sometimes also called a displacement-roll. It is not nearly as difficult as it looks after a little practice.

 

You can roll-out at the top instead of inverting if you choose not to repeat the attack. This will give you a 90-degree turn without a loss of altitude. It also has many other possibilities...it is the basis of energy fighting.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=BW6pw17uPz4

 

The commentary about clearing-turns are used for safety and practice purposes only. You can ignore them in combat once you have mastered the basic manoeuvre.


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#38 unreasonable

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 08:05

I would think that that wing over roll not optimum even if you are making passes at a 2-seater trundling along on a more or less steady heading, since you are losing sight of the target and turning away: given our WW1 scouts' performance, you may not have the speed to make up the lost separation. Better just to wingover without a roll back towards the target.

 

 If you had taken a shot at a scout that looked as though it was following you up I would never do this because: 

 

1) You are presenting a full wingspan of target when you roll inverted

2) It is very hard to keep a bandit in view if you get it anywhere directly above and slightly behind your head, which will happen if you try this with a following bandit.

 

 

But good acrobatic manoeuvre to hone your general flying awareness, as advertised in the film.


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#39 JoeCrow

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 08:48

I would think that that wing over roll not optimum even if you are making passes at a 2-seater trundling along on a more or less steady heading, since you are losing sight of the target and turning away: given our WW1 scouts' performance, you may not have the speed to make up the lost separation. Better just to wingover without a roll back towards the target.

 

 If you had taken a shot at a scout that looked as though it was following you up I would never do this because: 

 

1) You are presenting a full wingspan of target when you roll inverted

2) It is very hard to keep a bandit in view if you get it anywhere directly above and slightly behind your head, which will happen if you try this with a following bandit.

 

 

But good acrobatic manoeuvre to hone your general flying awareness, as advertised in the film.

 

Fair questions.

1. To do that the enemy would also have to perform a wingover roll because you are displaced 90 degrees above and behind the enemy in a continuing displacement roll. You are always one step ahead with the option of rolling out or reversing the direction of roll at the top. That is the flexibility of the basic manoeuvre.

 

2. You do not lose visual because the wingover-roll acts in the same way as a canopy-roll. That is, that you maintain visual through the roof of the canopy (inverted). Your opponent has a much harder time maintaining visual then you do because you avoid an overshoot. The enemy is never behind you because of the 90-degree turning element of a wingover. Remember that you are following up your initial pass, from a height/speed advantage, with a wingover-roll above and behind the enemy (a displacement roll). He is forced into a defensive turn or you are straight back on his six. It is a standard attacking manoeuvre.

 

Try it using a ground target for practice. There is nothing to lose.

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#40 unreasonable

unreasonable
  • Posts: 1452
  • LocationBangkok

Posted 02 November 2015 - 10:42

I am not asking questions, I am making assertions. ;)

 

The target must be lost from view in this unless you have a camera in the bottom of your fuselage.

 

The film states that you climb and start to roll onto a heading 90 degrees off your original course - to the left say - the target is low right. OK so far. Continue to roll left and the target cannot be seen. At some point it is directly below and behind. Now I have to continue the roll inverted and reacquire the target which is now above and behind: just about the hardest place to see it, even if your neck can stretch that far and you know where it has gone - which of course you normally do not.

 

My point is that there is nothing in this that I can see that is better than a a straightforwards wing over back towards the target keeping the target in view to one side the whole time - or away from the target if you want more separation. Going inverted while performing a wingover away from the target adds nothing - except making it harder to see the target. Even going partly inverted while carrying out a wingover towards the target could be a problem: we are talking about biplanes/triplanes (almost exclusively) - losing a target behind the top wing is also highly undesirable.

 

IMHO is just over-complicating what should be an extremely simple process - convert your excess speed back into height while keeping the enemy in view at all times and without giving him an easy shot. If there is only one vertical move to learn in a WW1 biplane it certainly is not this one: you would be much better off just mastering the traditional Immelmann which maximizes you height and keeps the enemy in view. Whether you stall turn at the top or not just depends on how much height you want or can get, there is no real difference between a "hammerhead" and a "wingover" from the point of view of a fight.


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