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Is SPAD 13 really that bad?


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#1 yun

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 18:46

After enjoying Fokker DVII (winning dogfights with all Antanta planes at Ace level) I wanted to try the other side and was shocked with the terrible performance of the Antanta planes available to me (SPAD 13 and Russian Nieuport 17). They cannot outmaneuver German planes, and while Nieuport 17 is worthless due to its poor armament, SPAD 13 is especially bad in maneuvers - it should be renamed to SPIN 13! (And spins are unrecoverable, at least with the standard technique.) I know it was not the most agile plane, but to THAT extent? It won a lot of dogfights in real life, after all (and in Red Baron II - the only other WWI sim I flew - it was not that bad, too).

 


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#2 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 19:13

Don't turn fight in the Spad.  Use hit and run tactics.  It's much more effective against humans than against the AI, because the AI almost always sees you before you can bounce it.


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#3 Pirato

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 19:20

The Spad should use its speed and climbrate,doing diving attacks and when things get hairy extend from the fight. It's not meant to be very agile and joining a turning fight with it will bring you rather sooner than later in serious troubles. With a Spad you have the advantage that you can pick your fights mostly, you can extend in level flight from most planes and its even harder to catch in a steep dive.

 

The N17  is a hard one to master,good use of rudder is important aswell as a good aim. You can have success with doing climbing turns,always trying to stay on top of the opponent as it has a good climbrate. It can turn pretty well against the Albatros,even if it is a close match to the Albatros D5a. Again,perfect use of rudder is the key for success flying any of the N17's.


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#4 Beowulf1

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 21:30

The biggest mistake that people make is to try to fight in the other plane's advantage envelope.  What is he good at? What can he not do?  What is my plane good at?  And, of course, where do I suck?  The Spad 13 is NOT a turn fighter.  Never was and never was designed to be one.  You need to learn a whole new way of fighting.  Here is a good link to IRFC Requiem's tutorials.  Watch them, you'll find yourself saying, "Oh, so that's what I'm doing wrong."  If you are ready to blame your methods and not the plane you will be happier and live longer.

I used to hate the Spad until I changed my methods; now it feels like I am putting on a suit of armor.  You can not touch me, you can not harm me; (if I don't do something stupid.) Try to out number me and I will simply run away.

I am currently doing a Career for the 94th American, I love flying the N28, but the D7's are here so I am waiting for the 13's to arrive so that when I bounce one I don't have to worry about getting right to him and reapplying full power and then watching my windscreen fill with oil.

https://www.youtube....34EF2DFC3AA2D45

 

As far as spin recovery; the manual will show you the right way for the 13.  Never, Ever, shut the motor off.

 

TANJ

:icon_cool:

 


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#5 yun

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 02:24

I never could understand how people perform hit and run in sims. In real life with the large FOV and smooth control of the long stick, maybe - but with this small screen (even while I use two) and short joystick it's usually miss and run (unless you are very lucky and don't need any corrections while approaching).

 

I don't see any information about spin recovery in the manual - only the general plane info. And yes, I tried to recover with power on, with no success. Stick neutral (or a bit forward), rudder against the turns. No effect. (I practiced spin recovery in real life, BTW - but not on SPAD 13 of course).


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#6 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 03:30

 (unless you are very lucky and don't need any corrections while approaching).

 

 

Rudder pedals help a lot.


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#7 yun

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 03:53

Rudder pedals help a lot.

Maybe. But their emulation with joystick only results in left-right oscillations.


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#8 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 03:54

Maybe. But their emulation with joystick only results in left-right oscillations.

 

Lots of practice also helps.


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#9 Uwe_W.

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 04:23

Maybe. But their emulation with joystick only results in left-right oscillations.


Not with ch pedals.
Which pedals do you use?

As to the spad, as a DR1 pilot I probably fear it the most because I can't get away from it.
If he makes a stupid mistake like try to turn I can win, otherwise I'm doomed.
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#10 testid

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 05:01

One way to learn spin recovery if you haven't found a decent demo or written instructions for a given plane is to leave autopilot on as an option. Go get into a spin, and turn auto on, and the plane will recover. It won't necessarily show you power management offhand (although you could record it and play it back or slow it down or whatever), but you can observe the inputs and outcomes at any rate.


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#11 FourSpeed

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 06:34

The spin recoveries are listed in the manual in Appendix D  (although I believe, at least one of them, and possibly a couple others, are incorrect).  The recovery for the SPADs *is* correct however (except for the Engine Off part -- idle power will suffice -- in fact, I'd *never* advocate Engine Off in a spin).

 

That said, the manual's spin recoveries are pretty much all variations on NASA's  P.A.R.E approach, and with a little practice spins are fully recoverable.

 

 

Regarding the SPAD XIII (and, to some extent, the earlier models as well), it's a very interesting aircraft.

 

When flown to it's strengths (ie,. mastered), it is undoubtedly the best plane in the game overall (although, I'd give the Fokker DVIIF equal billing there too).

However, if flown intuitively (and against it's strengths) it is undoubtedly the worst plane in the game.

 

None of the others span the entire gamut of outcomes like the SPAD does.

 

As others say, you *must* learn to fly the SPAD as a tactical BnZ plane - it simply won't work well any other way, and the number one way to make an adversary smile when you're in a SPAD is ... turn....  ;)

 

But once you "get it" it is a very deadly aircraft... 

 

 

Regards,

4 :icon_e_salute:


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#12 Plank

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 07:13

Hmmm, I had a bash around NW Wargrounds yesterday in the SPAD

and had a go at turn fighting down low over the mud, for kicks. 

(Yes, thou shalt not turn fight in the SPAD, ever)

 

By shallow swooping to gain a bit of speed and then doing a micro wing over

I was able to turn back to face  my attacker.(it was a DR1 or an Dva)

 

There is a very small window in which I can fire a burst into the predicted

path my  enemy will fly. Hoping they fly in that burst.  (fingers crossed)

   But you need to be well back to account for bullet flight time and hope you

send them off to the right address. So if you turn too early your bullets will

get to the intersection too early and miss the bus.

 

I guess you are "leading" your target as it flies towards you.

 

I thought it was worth mentioning. It's quite a hoot.

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#13 yun

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 07:50

I don't have pedals, I've said. Only Z-axis of the joystick.

 

Well, I was flying SPAD13 for several hours, and now I see the tactics - run away low, turn 180, head-on from the below, repeat. It works, but it's boring, comparing to my favorite turn fight. Was unable to win a duel with Dr.I yet. He cannot run away from me of course, so what if he always can turn out of my gunsight? (Well, I made him outmaneuver himself and hit the ground, but that was not considered a shot down plane.)

 

As for spins, yes, they are recoverable. I don't know why my first tries were unsuccessful - maybe the plane was damaged already (but it didn't lose a wing, I've checked it) (Looked through App D and was very surprised with the differences for different planes - especially those that required stick BACK which is never ever in spins in modern planes. How could it work if it should make stall and thus spin only worse?)

 

What is BnZ?


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#14 testid

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 08:58

BnZ is shorthand for "boom-and-zoom," the catchphrase for describing the fast-shoot-and-run style of attack that the non-turning planes are best suited to. It's rhetorically matched with "turn-and-burn" to describe turnfighters. BnZ also implies attacking from an alt advantage and climbing after the shot. Requiem's tactics videos include one which shows how this works in a two-man team attack, it's worth looking at.
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#15 Plank

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 09:00

Dear Yun.

 

No pedals is a bother. 

I would definitely consider some if you can afford that kind of money.

and are committed to flying.  ( I made my own, best thing I ever did)

 

Are you flying against real people or A!?

I would suggest you don't give up on anything until

you try it in MP,  real pilots can make an seemingly  boring 

plane something else...  and nail biting duels abound.

 

I learned to fly the basics then went straight into MP.

talk about doing things the hard way

 

:icon_e_deadman: >>>>>>>>>>> :icon_cool:

 

BnZ is the BANK OF NEW ZEALAND...  

 

My warmest regards,

 

Plank.  

 

PS. Testid :nous sommes dans le même temps !


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#16 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 10:50

First off, if you find B'n'Z fights in SPAD "boring" then you are likely doing something wrong, and since you mention performing "head on" approaches, then you are.

Head on duels are for fools generally speaking, but yes, sometimes you have to do this out of desperation.  Don't use it as a tactic on a regular basis though.  Extend and regain altitude, come back with a dive but do not make more than one flight path correction to fire guns, keep speed up, and zoom or extend to gain altitude.  It is all about timing.  Once you can B'n'Z effectively you will understand and it will open up the vertical aspect of dog fighting, where the veterans conduct business.

 

Practice leading deflection shots in Quick Missions verses AI and turn on/use the aiming guide to get a better idea of where you should be aiming.  Don't rely too much on tracers to indicate this, the feedback they give is usually too late to make any meaningful corrections in a snap shot scenario.

 

Not all spins are created equally, there are several varieties, and not all aircraft recover in the same way.  From pilots who have posted here (and have some variety on their log books)  RoF models complex spins and recovery well, at least better than other flight sims.

 

If you do end up loving RoF, like many of us, do consider getting rudder pedals.  At first it will be tough to adjust to them, and you will have to 'learn' to fly again somewhat, but afterwards it is amazing.  Rudder pedals are second only to TrackIR in my book.  Joystick is a given BTW...  :icon_e_smile:


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#17 Pirato

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 16:22

Aslong as you use the Z-Axis of the Joystick consider applying a S-Curve for Yaw in the response settings.


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#18 yun

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 16:49

Aslong as you use the Z-Axis of the Joystick consider applying a S-Curve for Yaw in the response settings.

Can you show a screenshot of a good curve?


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#19 yun

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 17:23

I fly against AI as I did for 20+ years. RoF is the first sim (excluding some arcade flight games) where I tried MP, but anyway I defeat every plane in Quick Mission before going against humans in the same a/c. (Not many places to go however. Most servers in the list show 1 or 2 players only. Shooting Stars is always full of planes, but most of them are bots.)

 

Boring doesn't mean wrong. Actually, most right things in this life are boring ;) Flying to the mission area in non-Quick Missions is boring e.g,, even with max time compression. Pure head-on may be too risky, but when you attack from below, it works fine, at least with AI. Of course I know where to shoot, I turn aiming help on.

 

I'm not going to purchase anything. $45 for a new joystick was enough for my tight budget.


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#20 yun

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 19:06

BTW, how can you avoid head-ons in BnZ plane? Your foe won't fly in circles below allowing you attacks from above like in that video. After you pass him, he will turn after you and get on your six. If you try to regain altitude, thus losing speed, you are finished. You may have a good climb rate, but his bullets has better. If you fly away fast enough to save your ass, you have to descend or fly straight and level. He follows you, so when you turn for a new attack, you have head-on.


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#21 Demon_

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 20:20



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#22 Gump

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 20:27

well, there are some very good pilots here giving very good advise, but now i will speak (there goes all that)...

.

BnZ concept is a good thing to know - it will even be used in many/most turn fights that last any length of time, especially against any of the good pilots.

.

however, fighting strictly BnZ style, which seem to be the Spad/Se5 style, requires a certain patience. and some folks like it, others don't.

...im one that doesnt. like you, i find it boring and time consuming, most of the time. i tried for a long time to 'like' the spad, but i just hate to take off running after a single pass and watch other turn fighters have mulitple fights before i even get a second pass. i, inevitably, cant resist trying a turn to keep in the fray, and find myself in peril almost always. 

.

having flown it for a good time, especially when i 1st got the game, i know to keep an eye out for spads, especially high or diving. i find it very simple to just turn out of their line of fire. i like making the spad pilot think i don't see him so that he dives in and thinks he has me, then turn at a safe but last minute and watch him extend away. i kind of chuckle when i do, knowing that i just robbed the poor spad pilot of a hope for a shot, and it'll be a while before he gets another - which ill do the same.

.... now there are a few/couple very good spad pilots that can keep the pressure on - and that 13 has some guns!


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#23 Pirato

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 21:04

Can you show a screenshot of a good curve?

If you go to the response settings there are 2 checkboxes, one is a default S-Curve with the other you can go back to linear settings. The S-Curve makes the control input less sensitive around the center and you can tweak it even more if you want, add a Deadzone etc. You can also add the S-Curve to Pitch if needed,but I would leave the Roll axis on linear settings.


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#24 FourSpeed

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 21:14

I fly against AI as I did for 20+ years. RoF is the first sim (excluding some arcade flight games) where I tried MP, but anyway I defeat every plane in Quick Mission before going against humans in the same a/c. (Not many places to go however. Most servers in the list show 1 or 2 players only. Shooting Stars is always full of planes, but most of them are bots.)

 

Boring doesn't mean wrong. Actually, most right things in this life are boring ;) Flying to the mission area in non-Quick Missions is boring e.g,, even with max time compression. Pure head-on may be too risky, but when you attack from below, it works fine, at least with AI. Of course I know where to shoot, I turn aiming help on.

 

I'm not going to purchase anything. $45 for a new joystick was enough for my tight budget.

 

I'm "meh" on the rudder pedals, personally -- I used to have some, so I could practice what I'd done during RL flight training, and I found they simply didn't feel at all like the real deal, and for me (YMMV) it actually hampered learning proper RL rudder habits -- so, for sims, my old CH pedals went permanently in the closet.  I've found the twist stick for rudder, while less immersive, is no less effective for me.

 

Now, regarding your attack strategy, there are a lot of guys that like "prop-hanging", and to some degree, it can be quite effective. That said, a good pilot who understands altitude and energy advantages is going to eat you alive, if you stay below -  regularly.

 

The primary problem is one of energy - the higher guy has it, and if he understands what he's doing, he can bleed yours off with relative impunity.

 

Once that is accomplished, he'll be able to regularly get behind your 3-9 line and bounce you till you're dead ***. 

 

In fact, that IS the recipe for BnZ - if you ever watch sparrows attack a crow - you'll see the perfect demonstration of BnZ.   "Always above, Never below, Rarely at the same altitude" and "Against scouts (and crows), always attack from behind".  ;)

 

 

Regards,

4 :icon_e_salute:

 

 

***  the reason for this, even against a more maneuverable plane is twofold - one he can turn at corner speed (ie. max performance turn), and he can also use the vertical to get favorable turning angles. 


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#25 yun

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 22:32

Again, more energy is good when you need to flee (or to chase a faster plane flying straight), but it won't help you if the other plane turns faster. The higher your speed, the bigger the turn radius. If you don't kill me in a single pass (which is unlikely), after your dive I turn after you and shoot you while you're climbing back. It may be not so easy IRL where it is so simple to lose the sight of the attacker, but not in the sim with padlock and icons (or with AI seeing you).


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#26 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 22:46

He won't dive, he'll climb/extend away already as you turn after him. Turn radius is infinity (ok, 40000 km). By the time you starts climbing / accelerating after your tight turn you can try one lucky burst, if that, then you are out of range. One well aimed shot at target below from a dive, versus one fast shot at target that is higher, climbing away while you've just burned your speed in turn... which one has better chance of hitting?

 


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#27 unreasonable

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 04:36

He won't dive, he'll climb/extend away already as you turn after him. Turn radius is infinity (ok, 40000 km). By the time you starts climbing / accelerating after your tight turn you can try one lucky burst, if that, then you are out of range. One well aimed shot at target below from a dive, versus one fast shot at target that is higher, climbing away while you've just burned your speed in turn... which one has better chance of hitting?

 

 

Good way of thinking about it - I would just also add that the diving plane will get his shot first, so on the occasions when he hits the defender might not even get the chance to shoot at all!

 

Having said that, long range shooting in RoF does seem to be relatively easy, making extending away risky, not only that but the 3 strikes rule for PKs means that finishing an enemy with a one pass diving snapshot is fairly rare.  

 

There is the alternative to BnZ and TnB, namely energy fighting (eg yo-yoing to maintain energy and position), but I have no idea whether the SPAD 13 is good at this.


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#28 NakedSquirrel

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 05:33

The SPAD XIII is one of the fastest, best climbing, and best diving planes in the game.  It doesn't have a great sustained turn radius, but it has a good instantaneous turn if you need a gun solution.  

 

My general tips/advise when flying the SPAD:

 

1. Don't attack without an altitude advantage of 500m minimum.

2. Don't turn with the enemy.  Take a shot and extend away until you can get an altitude advantage again. (try to get at least 300m distance between you and the enemy before climbing)

3. Never engage below 1000m try to treat this as a minimum altitude so you can dive away if you get bounced.

4. If you get bounced or find yourself in trouble, point the plane directly at the ground and dive at maximum engine rpm.  (When you pull out of this kind of dive, gradually pull up and never use rudder or you will rip your wings off).  The SPAD is one of the few planes that can sustain a dive like this.  

 

That should help you survive in the SPAD.  Beyond that, you just need to practice predicting where an enemy will be when you come in for an attack, engine management, energy management and gunnery.


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#29 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 05:51

Everything that Squirrel said is spot on.  But even better, join up with another Spad driver in MP.  There is nothing as effective as 2 Spads working together.


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#30 Gump

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 18:05

"2 spads worling together"..... that is some great advice. however, it is not very often that this can be done simply because of the nature of online play.

I know AI really "inteliigent", but hows about having the ability/option to have an AI spad accompany the real spad pilot? hmmmm....


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#31 J2_Oelmann

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 18:13

There is nothing as effective as 2 Spads working together.

 

 

Maybe two DXII ? :-)


Edited by J2_Oelmann, 25 July 2015 - 18:16.

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#32 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 22:03

There is nothing as effective as 2 Spads working together.

 

 

Maybe two DXII ? :-)

 

The XII can't dive if it gets in trouble.


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#33 Tycoon

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 23:08

The XII can't dive if it gets in trouble.

Or do anything for that matter. And it's not that the spad is bad, it's just the se5 is so much better! :icon_e_biggrin:

 

Btw BSR do you use balloon guns on the spad?


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#34 J2_Oelmann

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 23:14

Nah, I just climb the hell out of you! :-)


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#35 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 23:40

Btw BSR do you use balloon guns on the spad?

 

No.  I prefer having more ammo.


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#36 yun

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 00:48

What is 3 strikes rule?

My head-on from below tactics mostly works, but I'm stuck with Fokker DVIII monoplane. It just flies through my rounds taking virtually no damage. It cannot hit me (mostly), but I'm out of ammo.

Climbing after fleeing far enough not to be hit in climb would be even more boring than my current tactics.

I think a pair of any planes will work fine against a single one, but I'm interested in winning 1 to 1.


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#37 Tycoon

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 04:30

Nah, I just climb the hell out of you! :-)

Ah, but when you are a German pilot the temptation to turn with a se5 is too great to resist, no matter what plane you are flying! Must not turn...must not turn...must not....hey how did I get killed?! I must have turned.:D
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#38 J2_Oelmann

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 08:47

You need indeed repeating your "no turn" mantra all the time. I usually forget that too.
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#39 Uwe_W.

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Posted 26 July 2015 - 21:56

What is 3 strikes rule?
My head-on from below tactics mostly works, but I'm stuck with Fokker DVIII monoplane. It just flies through my rounds taking virtually no damage. It cannot hit me (mostly), but I'm out of ammo.
Climbing after fleeing far enough not to be hit in climb would be even more boring than my current tactics.
I think a pair of any planes will work fine against a single one, but I'm interested in winning 1 to 1.


And in the spad you absolutely can, it's just a matter of method.

If you want fun and exciting fly the DR1, the spad while less exciting is a far more efficient killing machine.

Only suckers dogfight. The best don't dogfight, they stalk, ambush and kill.
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#40 unreasonable

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Posted 27 July 2015 - 07:59

What is 3 strikes rule?
My head-on from below tactics mostly works, but I'm stuck with Fokker DVIII monoplane. It just flies through my rounds taking virtually no damage. It cannot hit me (mostly), but I'm out of ammo.
Climbing after fleeing far enough not to be hit in climb would be even more boring than my current tactics.
I think a pair of any planes will work fine against a single one, but I'm interested in winning 1 to 1.


3 strikes rule is just the RoF's pilot's damage model. 1st wound gives you the red splat vision, 2nd wound a heavy red veil, 3rd wound - you are dead. So when it comes to bullets you - or an AI pilot - have to be hit three times. This is extremely difficult - almost impossible - to achieve with a single high deflection shot, so killing a target outright in one pass using BnZ tactics is very rare. Obviously in RL one bullet might do the job, so RoF is rather more forgiving of mistakes for the plane being shot at.

It is possible to get more than one wound from a bad crash or direct AAA hit, but AFAIK, in hundreds of hours of play, bullets always work on a one hit = one wound basis.

If bullet hits worked probabilistically - say a 25% chance of death from each wound, we would all have to be much more careful.
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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." H. L. Mencken



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