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Se5: What on Earth is going on here???


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#1 Plank

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 10:02

Dear sirs

 

I am a squeaky wheel.

 

Se5 will do insane loops with default response curves when you let go of the stick.

 

There is little reason to do this other than the ELEVATOR IS STUCK nosing the plane up.

 

Have a look at it!. it's default position is not NEUTRAL.

 

No one would fly a real plane that noses up at such a rate with hands off.

 

It's akin to driving a car that pulls left violently.

 

and the kicker?

 

If you adjust your response curves to keep the nose down, when you are wounded, it goes BACK to nosing up.

 

so you lose control of the plane when you need it  most.  ><

 

Being wounded turns off/reduces the effect of the response curve.  ON OTHER PLANES TOO. 

 

 

 

so :

 

Reset elevator, trim the plane. let it be able to be flown level with hands off stick.

Most people would agree that is not unreasonable. (?)

 

Change the wounded pilot mechanism to something that does not effect the response curve

A possible solution is to sample and delay inputs, effectively slowing the rate of change.

(you will get full response but not in real time)

 

 

 

To have the se5 nose up the way it does is just an outrage. (It's utter BS)

 

(there are clips on youtube you can watch to see the Se5 is quite sedate and well behaved)

 

Plank.


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#2 O_Rod

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 10:19

Plank, the SE5a has always had this elevator trim up, fairly recently the devs actually gave us the ability to change trim in the Sim, and the SE5a has a trim wheel, just map an axis an set as you like.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Rod


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#3 Plank

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 10:34

Mr O_Rod you are a genius.

 

A trim wheel? Really? WOW!

 

Faith restored!!!!

 

Hang on, ok before I get carried away I will get back in the plane and check it out first hand. Back soon...

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#4 Plank

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 10:45

Mr O_Rod.

 

I am now convinced.

 

(I have not tested it extensively yet but is does trim the plane without needing to butcher the stick responses)

 

Eternal gratitude to you sir!

 

Salute! :icon_e_salute:

 

Plank.

 

(ooh look, a mad traffactor!)


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#5 Plank

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 11:11

Back to the drawing board.

 

Attached File  Se5 miimum trim.jpg   765.38KB   9 downloads

 

 

 

now I maybe a bit thick.

But I have learned that fixing something PROPERLY is a good idea, the first time.

 

The TRIM control for the SE5 does NOT go quite far enough!

 

How could you bollocks that up?

 

The trim control stops just before it is correct. (!!!)

To actually get this bang on you have to fiddle the responses.

 

The idea is to NOT have to do that!!!!

 

For the LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY!!!

 

Plank

 

 

PS. yes the control does look nice, yes it works, yes it's fun to adjust, NO IT IS NOT ENOUGH.


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#6 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 15:27

How could you bollocks that up?

 

You're learning quick. :icon_lol:


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#7 Joker_BR

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 18:26

Just relax the throttle a little. :)


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#8 O_Rod

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 19:20

I would suggest trim as far as possible, then adjust the curve.  I know this means the dreaded nose up when wounded, but you get that in all planes anyway.  It's a compromise we are forced to make until they stop playing with BOS and BOM and give back a bit to the community that funded those sims.  That's us RoF diehards in case anyone is wondering :icon_lol:


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#9 Plank

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 02:46

Dear chaps.

 

Trimmed the Se5, adjusted the pitch very slightly and it is quite nice to noodle around in.

 

Does the "wounded pilot syndrome" effects the trim as well??? (dash it I am wounded, better wind the trim back to nose up...)

 

it would be interesting to get RL pilots to fly all the AC with "linear" responses and get some feed back. (a LOT of feed back would be very interesting reading)

 

I was lead to believe that RoF had excellent FM's of the era's AC's... I sense a divided opinion on this. 

 

I also noted that the Sopwith tripple (which I bought to try my hand at "triping") comes replete with a trim control which actually seems to work properly, unlike the Se5...

(I cannot fathom why one trim control would work well and the other not so, they do the same thing...)

 

Oh well never mind.

 

Back to whining about other stuff!

 

My regards,

 

Plank.


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#10 hq_Reflected

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 18:46

Plank: in the real SE5a the neutral elevator position corresponds to a slightly forward stick position. This is modelled in game too. IF you have a  FFB stick, it's "center" will be slightly forward too. If you have a spring stick, the spring will force the stick to the vertical position, but unfortunately that is not the "center" position on the SE5a. So, it's historically accurate, but quite a PITA without a FFB stick.


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#11 IRFC_SmokinHole

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 21:55

Plank,

It irrelevant for real life pilots to try flying with linear controls. Real life pilots are flying with a stick with a range of travel of two feet. Real life pilots are flying with a stick that only centers under its trimed air load. There just aren't parallels in a sim, but as Reflected correctly states, FFB controls help. What this pilot does is to use the tools the developer gave me years ago and set a neutral point that fits my preferences. No complaints here.
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#12 Plank

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 02:05

Chaps.

 

I am really interested in how all this all works. Being a sort of meccano kind of person :)

 

Real Se5a : neautral elevator = slight stick fwd.

Hands off = nose nose up.with stick relaxing back to "center".

(the centered stick has equalised pressure in both P and R right?)

 

I am not quite following you, sorry:

 

"If you have a spring stick, the spring will force the stick to the vertical position, but unfortunately that is not the "center" position on the SE5a."

 

Center on the Jstick and center on the AC should be the same. Level flight however is not stick centered. it will be in the se5's case slight stick forward.

Is this what you mean by stick centeed. (bother this is getting tricky)

 

I have a spring stick.

To effect level flight in the se5a I have to sight  stick forward. (AFTER trimming and NOT including butchering stick response. )

 

And this is normal flight for Se5a. and I do not call the a centered stick. Hands off on the ground with the controls surfaces in their default positions is to me "center"

You waggle your stick you get moving stuff, hands off they all go back to their "home" positions. In the case of the Se5 the elevator is slightly inclinated. (to effect a slight nose rise...)

 

Gosh.

 

anyway I have been thrashing the Se5 around the place and blow me down it flies like the N.28.

Not as fast though :(

but can slug it's way around a medium turn without too much scrubbing.

 

I like it.

 

Plank.


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#13 hq_Reflected

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 05:31

Plank, sorry if I wasn't clear enough, English is not my native language and I might have  not been clear enough. :) There's one little thing you're wrong about:

 

 

Real Se5a : neautral elevator = slight stick fwd.

Hands off = nose nose up.with stick relaxing back to "center".

 

Real SE5a:

neutral elevator = stick slightly fwd

Hands off = the stick stays slightly fwd in the aforementioned position

 

RoF FFB stick = same as above

 

RoF Spring stick

neutral elevator = stick slightly forward

hands off = your joystick springs back to a center (vertical) position, and so does your virtual stick, which triggers an upwards elevator deflection

 

So in RoF, if you release the stick, an invisible hand will move your elevator out of the neutral position (that is, the spring on your real stick)

 

I hope this clears it up. I can really recommend buying a FFB stick, RoF does a magnificent job at it. You can feel all the little bumps on the ground or in the air, you can even feel the propwash on the elevator when throttling up on the ground, while the ailerons are still "limp".


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#14 Plank

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 07:29

I am now confused.

 

Does the real Se5 Nose up with the elevator Neutral? and to counter you stick fwd which makes the elevator pitch down.

 

and in RoF to make this so they have pitched the elevator UP to make the nose go up? and to counter you pitch fwd which brings the elevator to neutral?

 

 

I can imagine that making a plane that is perfect would be tricky. and that even after it is up and flying you would discover that some things are not the best.

 

would not the designers remedy the situation and adjust whatever it is that makes the plane nose up ?

It is pretty basic stuff. The se5 and other planes are pretty advanced.

to have such a basic problem strikes me as odd.

 

oh well. Never mind. I will just have to not get wounded and suffer from very strong nose up...

 

Is there any concrete evidence to support the RoF nose up model.

they must have gotten the data from somewhere.

 

And why are some planes afflicted with it so badly? and others not?

 

Thanks for being a sport old chap!

 

Plank.


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#15 hq_Reflected

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 08:52

I am now confused.

 

Does the real Se5 Nose up with the elevator Neutral? and to counter you stick fwd which makes the elevator pitch down.

 

 

No. The real SE5's elevator is parallel to the tailplane (neutral) when the stick is in neutral position (slightly forward from vertical, no pressure required)

 

The RoF SE's elevator moves up and makes the nose go up too because the spring on your real joystick moves it back to the center (vertical) position -> your virtual stick goes to the same position -> this corresponds to an upward pitched elevator.


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#16 =HillBilly=

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 13:14

Lets face it ROF simulates all the aircraft being tail heavy,(which is not realistic). 


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#17 Plank

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 14:12

Mr Reflected.

 

I think I see what you are getting at.

 

The SE5 stick is slightly fwd when the elevator is in line with the Horizontal stabiliser.

If you pull the stick back to "vertical" then the plane will nose up.

 

A FFB stick will initialise itself with the stick slightly forward for this plane.  (elevator inline with H stabiliser)

 

Right? good.

 

I am still bemused you can't turn the trim another quarter turn... That would be tooo grand. (the camel does it fine...)

 

Tail dragger's unite!

 

Plank.


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#18 hq_Reflected

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 14:27

Yes mate, that's it! Sorry I wasn't clear enough at the beginning :)


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#19 IRFC_SmokinHole

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 22:01

Keep in mind that among planes of a given type (Se-5s in this case) there were big variations in how they flew. They were rigged in various ways to suit an individual pilot's preferences and mechanic's skill. The plane can be rigged with slight variations in the stabilizer angle of incidence and the elevator can have a fixed tab attached both of which will serve to change (or eliminate) the required stick force for a particular phase of flight. Let go of the stick in the real plane and it will immediately move to its trimmed position which is possibly, but not necessarily, in line with the stabilizer (unless it is the stabilizer that is adjustable). Let go of the stick next to your keyboard and it will go where the spring sends it--not the same thing.
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#20 Plank

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 07:30

Mr smoking hole,

 

Back when I was a lad we made Balsa Aeroplanes. The principles are scalable.

 

Before chucking your glider of the roof of the house you would add weight to get it to balance sort of near the very front of the wing.

We got pretty good at this kind of thing and created quite well behaved gliders that flew pretty straight and level.

(as long as you didn't thrown it too hard, which as I recall made them loop ... ha ha how funny..

 

It does not surprise me one bit that every plane would be fiddled with to get the best flight out it. We did it with our gliders.

If I had a plane I would be looking at the ways to improve or modify characteristics. Just the nature of it really.

Home built planes are amazing.

 

Kind regards

 

Plank.


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#21 Catfish

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 19:51

Yesterday i shot down a Fokker Dr.I, with an SE5. I did not change the controls (joystick curves) nor did i trim it.

 

And i was shot down by an SE5 twice yesterday, while fliyng a SE5 myself, on a duel server. Embarassing, no doubt ;)


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#22 gavagai

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 02:23

I use a msffb2 and I've never touched the trim wheel on the SE5a.


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#23 Plank

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 04:08

so if you let your hands off the stick, Catfish, does your Se5 try and loop gregariously?

 

and well done on the Shooting down the Dr1! Salute! one less blighter...

 

It's when they are on your tail and you get shot in the back, that's when it all goes tits up. Very up.

I would very much like to see someone turn that table on the DR1, I should imagine it's quite hard work.

Slashing attacks, shoot/run and "ambushing" seem to be the only way forward. Darn it.

 

Plank.


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#24 Chill31

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 15:14

so if you let your hands off the stick, Catfish, does your Se5 try and loop gregariously?

 

and well done on the Shooting down the Dr1! Salute! one less blighter...

 

It's when they are on your tail and you get shot in the back, that's when it all goes tits up. Very up.

I would very much like to see someone turn that table on the DR1, I should imagine it's quite hard work.

Slashing attacks, shoot/run and "ambushing" seem to be the only way forward. Darn it.

 

Plank.

 

For what its worth, I don't know if anyone could remove a Dr1 from his tail in any WWI aircraft...The Dr1 is such a wonderfully maneuverable airplane that sometimes I fear I may run into my own arse in a tight turn...


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#25 Pirato

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 20:00

There is a way to get rid of the DR1 on the Six position...just put your nose down and dive,hoping he either won't even try to follow you ,or if he does he doesn't know it's engine too well and breaks it by over reving...^^


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#26 A.Challenge

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 20:59

I can drop thousands of meters in a Dr1 dive without breaking my engine or loosing plane bits ....

 

Now if I could only get on someone's six I'd be set. :icon_lol: :icon_mad:


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#27 Plank

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 02:01

The only time I have lost a DR1 is by very low flying and and fast and  obscuring myself against  the undergrowth all the while checking to see which way the DR1 is heading. If I notice the DR1 rise up/wander off a bit I am guessing it can't see me. But you can't do this if you are up high against the sky.

 

The above trick worked in the Se5. a couple of times. 


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#28 Pirato

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 14:26

There is no way that a DR1 can catch up on a SE5a up high. Exceptions may be a surprise attack by the DR1 of course. When the SE5 pilot is aware of the DR1 chasing him he can easily extend and if he wants climb over the Dr1. If you have trouble running from them in a Se5a you should check your mixture and your engine temperature. Wrong mixturesettings and a too cold engine affects performance too.


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#29 Catfish

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 16:55

Hi Plank,

i hope you sorted out your problem of not being able to go online (?)

 

When you think of trim, speed and the beginnings of aviation, and "philosophies" how the best plane has to fly, what would you have done back then ?

 

Germany and Austro-Hungry made planes that would be considered lame by some, but then all other pilots would have died flying the "hip" ones. Germany could not afford that, it had less planes, and less pilots (and less raw materials and food altogether). The Dr.I was an exception, and apart from the missing castor oil, its performance was not good enough for the later war conditions.

The Dr.I had not a better engine than the Camel, but it was not inferior at all. The Camel we have in RoF is the last model high-hp machine, most Camels had the smaller engine. The climbing performance of the Dr.I was made possible by the propellor, which' angle of attack was designed for maximum climbing. What it did, but therefore it was a bit slower than other planes, in level flight.

 

And without trimming wheels and such, you would build a plane to fly hands-off and level, at the desired altitude. Beyond it it would raise the nose, above it it would drop it, under perfect conditions. Just like in RoF.


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#30 Plank

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 03:05

Dear catfish.

 

a)  yes expired SSL certificates. or just magic.

 

B) I think a machine that does not scream heaven wards when hands off might be on the cards. Testing planes rigorously before spending precious time and resources on them just in case you are barking up the wrong tree. 

 

c) I have no idea what makes the DR1 better or worse than any other plane. There is a lot of talk about this and that... I shrug and look out the window...

 

d) I am not sure if you are correct or not but I would hazard that a plane that loops violently at most any speed (I am expecting a lot of people would fly them fast) would be extremely tiresome to fly and fatal when you are wounded. and since we all have fiddled our response curves then we can move past the reality of the situation as I am sure they didnae have response curves back then.

 

In fact removing the response curve function from rof would be a hoot. I would love to see how people get on with that.

 

P.


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#31 Panthercules

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 03:44

 I am sure they didnae have response curves back then.

 

Not sure why you keep harping on this when the answer is pretty clear and has been given before - I am sure they didnae have PC joysticks with centering springs that brought their sticks back to center when they took their hands off, either.

 

Basically, either adjust your response curves so that the spring-forced "center" of your non-FFB joystick doesn't send your plane into a loop, or get a FFB joystick and find something else to complain about (the Logitech Force 3D Pro I use works fine and could be found fairly cheap on eBay last time I bought a spare).

 

 In fact removing the response curve function from rof would be a hoot. I would love to see how people get on with that.

 

P.

 

Wouldn't bother me, as I have never needed to worry about adjusting the curves using my FFB stick - I suppose people would deal with it by either buying a FFB stick, or complaining about why the devs didn't let them use adjustable curves to compensate for them using a non-FFB stick.


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#32 Plank

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 04:14

I think what I wrote was for catfish's benefit not yours Pather.

 

and sniping at me while I have convo is not exactly cricket and if you are sick of my "harping" then stop reading this thread.

 

Check to see who the OP is and then consider whether you want to proceed.

 

and as you are a Mod you might want to appear a bit more "reserved". Just a thought.


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#33 Panthercules

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 05:00

I think what I wrote was for catfish's benefit not yours Pather.

 

and sniping at me while I have convo is not exactly cricket and if you are sick of my "harping" then stop reading this thread.

 

Check to see who the OP is and then consider whether you want to proceed.

 

and as you are a Mod you might want to appear a bit more "reserved". Just a thought.

 

I'm sorry you took offense at my tone - I didn't mean to appear snippy.  However, I didn't realize your post was directed just to Catfish or just for his benefit (I thought that's what PMs were for).  Also,  I didn't say I was "sick of your harping" - just that I didn't understand it..  But my point still seems appropriate, given that in your latest post above (before mine) you again reiterate your original point (and I know you were the OP, and that you returned to that point  later in this thread) that there seems to be something "wrong" with the behavior of the RoF SE5a because it climbs when you take your hands off the joystick and something "wrong" with RoF for using response curves to adjust for this.  

 

I just thought that the explanation had been given and those points clarified already in the thread above and was surprised/disappointed to see them raised again in such a seemingly critical manner.


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#34 Plank

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 06:09

I think if you look hard at the post in question  it starts: with "Dear Catfish".

Clear indication that I was indeed talking to her/him/them.

 

and engaging in debate with them on the merits of the Se5 nose up. (which does involve trim wheels, and stick responses etc)

This is fundamentally what the thread is about.

 

The debate did not grind to a halt after you fielded in your explanation.

Catfish waded in and asked me a question.

Which I still think is in the forum  rules...

 

and I still think it would be really interesting to see how people would react to having the response curve function removed.

 

some people might complain...  

 

and how does one prove that the Se5 nose up is actually correct anyhow?

It does seem to be rather drastic. In my humble opinion.

 

Plank.


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#35 SYN_Mike77

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 13:15

I have a spring stick and I have never put curves in.  Ever.  It is tiring, and it does make it hard to fly a distance while reading a magazine or talking to the wife but I'm pretty sure that is exactly the way it should be.  I am pretty sure that WWI planes had to be flown hands on at all times.  I remember back in the day when I got my then new rig(now sitting out in the shed) and tried out the free 2 week demo of RoF.  Once I got the Spad 13 into the air and stable I took my hands off the stick and the plane went into an immediate climb.  I smiled, exited out and bought the full (4 planes!!!) edition.  If that plane had stayed straight and level I would not have bought the game.  I already had First Eagles if I wanted a sim where the planes flew on rails.  Thank the Gods that RoF is different!!!!


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#36 =HillBilly=

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 16:04

I have a spring stick and I have never put curves in.  Ever.  It is tiring, and it does make it hard to fly a distance while reading a magazine or talking to the wife but I'm pretty sure that is exactly the way it should be.  I am pretty sure that WWI planes had to be flown hands on at all times.  I remember back in the day when I got my then new rig(now sitting out in the shed) and tried out the free 2 week demo of RoF.  Once I got the Spad 13 into the air and stable I took my hands off the stick and the plane went into an immediate climb.  I smiled, exited out and bought the full (4 planes!!!) edition.  If that plane had stayed straight and level I would not have bought the game.  I already had First Eagles if I wanted a sim where the planes flew on rails.  Thank the Gods that RoF is different!!!!

Do you let go of the joystick when changing a magazine in the SE5 or the Nieuports, WW1 pilots did, changing a magazine was a 2 handed job.


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#37 ZachariasX

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 16:49

I have a spring stick and I have never put curves in.  Ever.  It is tiring, and it does make it hard to fly a distance while reading a magazine or talking to the wife but I'm pretty sure that is exactly the way it should be.  I am pretty sure that WWI planes had to be flown hands on at all times.  I remember back in the day when I got my then new rig(now sitting out in the shed) and tried out the free 2 week demo of RoF.  Once I got the Spad 13 into the air and stable I took my hands off the stick and the plane went into an immediate climb.  I smiled, exited out and bought the full (4 planes!!!) edition.  If that plane had stayed straight and level I would not have bought the game.  I already had First Eagles if I wanted a sim where the planes flew on rails.  Thank the Gods that RoF is different!!!!

 

Every plane is trimmed for a certain airspeed. you go faster, it starts to pitch up, you go slower it pitches down. How much stick force you need to counter that depends on the plane and the arrangement of the stick. Pitch up movement for RoF planes I find excessive. Chills Dr.I implementation shows just that. Balanced flying tails have almost no stick force to them. In the Morane, if you let the stick go, it would fall all the way forward alomost out of reach to grab it again regardless of the airspeed.

 

Any plane should fly horizontal at normal load and cruise speed. if it doesn't, then you rigged it wrong.


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#38 Catfish

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 19:09

Plank, when you want to be able to fly a plane straight and level without correcting it's vertical path too much and without any trimming, it will only do that at one altitude while flying full power.

Or at another (less)  altitude, with less power.

However you design the plane, this will always be the case without trimming and re-trimming, at the various heights.

 

Real dogfights or aerial fights seldomly took place close to the ground, as it is in those easy online servers. Nwe Wings and syndicate are a bit more 'real', insofar as you should really climb, before crossing no-man's-land.

 

If you do not want to keep the nose down manually at, say, 500 feet of 'altitude', you have to decrease power until the plane finds the equilibrium between applied power/speed, and uplift, at this altitude.

 

Didn't you say you built flying models. :icon_e_wink:

 

Greetings,

Catfish/Krazy Kat


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#39 Plank

Plank
  • Posts: 2835
  • LocationNew Zealand.

Posted 03 June 2015 - 04:38

Dear Catfish,

 

So if what you are saying it correct then the Se5 etc are "trimmed for altitude".  So what altitude do you thing that is?

 

and yes I did fly model air craft but they were simple gliders and seldom reached great height.

But the trimming was important.

 

However the interesting thing I remember from that was the plane would rise up after being hand launched, not nose up.

The lift being generated was balanced over the CoG and so the plane was "sucked" up vertically while sailing fwd.

Once the plane ran out of fwd speed it would then glide horizontally back to earth. losing speed the whole time.

and eventually stall and crash or slither along the ground to a stop. We aiming for duration of flight.

 

We trimmed our planes to balance under the leading edge of the wing and experimented with moving it aft slowly.

can't remember where the best position was but it was obvious that balancing the plane was important.

unless you were building a lawn dart... Or a stunt plane that looped immediately once it left your hand.

Which we did for kicks and generally resulted in extreme loops, squeals of excitement,  and broken planes...

 

There is no way in heck I would take my hands off the n.28 to clear a fouled gun. and in watching real planes on you tube

they don't seem to be suffering the same extreme nose up, as I have mentioned in this thread previously.

 

oh god my leg went to sleep while writing this. Damn it. ouch.

 

Maybe I should stop playing Rof and go back to making gliders.... The amount of money I have spent so far would buy an awful

lot of balsa and glue... Hmmm. Just saying....

 

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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-

Captured again!

 


#40 Pirato

Pirato
  • Posts: 1593
  • LocationUnder a Bridge

Posted 03 June 2015 - 17:02

Plank have you tried to slide the center for pitch down in the responses,atleast for the SE5a? I've set it to 35% and I can almost fly level on any Speed with hands off the stick when I set the stabilizer properly. Reason for the SE5 pitching up (I think) is that the center of our Hardware sticks don't match with the Center of the Virtual Stick. In reference to the real plane,back then they had full length sticks while  every off the shelf Desktop Joystick is only a few centimeter long. Thats why there are the response curves,to compensate the short throw. I'm using a Joystick with a 10cm extension,even those 10cm make a hell of a difference in controlling any plane.

As mentioned a force Feedback Joystick simulates the "real" center of the virtual stick,thats why FFB users usually don't have need for response settings.


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Dann gibt's Heulen und Zähne klammern, für das ganze Lumpenpack.
Dann ist Schluss mit "Tischlein deck' dich", da gibt's "Knüppel aus dem Sack"!



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