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Can we have a discussion (for reals) about the Sopwith Tripe


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#41 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 13:18

I asked Vaal to put up the duel server again, if it is possible, I am very curious …
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#42 gavagai

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 13:23

I guess it's time some good pilots had some good duels??

I don't understand this better turning thing, though. Why then is it such a bad idea to throttle down during a turnfight?

The work the engine does on the airplane is being transformed into radial acceleration. But friction will slow you down, and with less airspeed the wing's critical AoA is reduced.
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#43 hq_Jorri

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 13:31

Ok, but if that would actually be valuable, that means it would make sense to throttle down in a sustained turnfight?
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#44 gavagai

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 13:41

No, you do not understand.

Power = work/time
work = force * distance
force = mass * acceleration

Acceleration is proportional to power, and changing your vector is a kind of acceleration. So, when you are in a sustained turn fight more power means more radial acceleration.
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#45 hq_Jorri

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 13:48

Indeed I don't really understand :D recovering from a massive flu might be the prroblem. Thanks for trying, though! I'll look at it again in a few days' time.

So do you think it in any way possible the Triplane was faster than the Camel?
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#46 gavagai

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 13:57

Sure, if you use a different propeller that sacrifices climb for speed. It is also possible if the license-built engine is of higher quality than what the Camel has.
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#47 MarcoRossolini

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 14:30

Well, fwiw I was flying on Aces falling a few days ago when the patch was hot off the press and the Tripes were losing badly to my D.III, though I'm still on the fence about a change…
The pup maintained its better than Dr.1 turn rate though.
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#48 gavagai

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 15:16

Well, fwiw I was flying on Aces falling a few days ago when the patch was hot off the press and the Tripes were losing badly to my D.III,

In the past I have usually been the victor in that matchup, too. But think about who your opposition is: AF has a lot of inexperienced pilots, and the Tripe is more difficult to handle than the Albatros.
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#49 hq_Jorri

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 15:30

I was always weary to enter a turnfight against a dr.I in a Triplane.

Hey, if the change in the Camel's performance also affected the triplane, why does our D.VIII come out of this unscathed?

And what about our Fokker D.VII and Halberstadt Cl.II D.IIIa?

No sense is being made :)
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#50 gavagai

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 15:32

The D.VIII does not come out unscathed. I hear it is slower, too.

——-

Scratch that it seems to me to still be fast.
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#51 JG1_Lee_J10

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 15:40

A good reference regards triplanes is "Three Wings for the Red Baron - Von Richthofen, Strategy, Tactics and Airplanes," by Leon Bennett. ISBN 1-57249-213-9.

I've noted some graphs of interest to this discussion. I'm only referencing the pages and giving the captions under each graph. I'd suggest you track down the book if you need more.

Page 65. Graph - Sopwith Triplane vs. Albatos D2 Climb Comparison.
"The Sopwith Triplane's climb superiority over the D2 type Albatros encouraged 'dive and climb' attack tactics and permitted escape through the roof should matters get out of hand"

Page 66. Graph - Sopwith Triplane vs. Albatros D3 Climb Comparison
"The Sopwith Triplane climb advantage was soon lost. Type D3, the follow-on Albatros model, offered a matching climbing ability, shown by nearly identical climb data points."

Page 67. Graph - Sopwith Triplane Performance, Max Speed vs. Altitude.
"The Sopwith Triplane showed a good rate of speed at altitudes ranging from 10 feet on up. However, both the Albatros D2 and D3 were faster."

Page 72. Graph - Sopwith Triplane & Camel Losses, German Claims: March 1917 - May 1918.
"Only 40 Sopwith Triplanes were claimed by the Germans before phase-out in favor of the Camel. The small total reflected a good design in limited use (three squadrons), flown by naval pilots with more experience, as compared to the average RFC flier."

:S!:
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#52 ZachariasX

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 15:56

The D.VIII does not come out unscathed. I hear it is slower, too.

——-

Scratch that it seems to me to still be fast.

But it dies over 4000 meters…. I mean the engine breaks. Temp drops full cold, then you're oiled. And a sailplane.
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#53 gavagai

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 16:27

The D.VIII does not come out unscathed. I hear it is slower, too.

——-

Scratch that it seems to me to still be fast.

But it dies over 4000 meters…. I mean the engine breaks. Temp drops full cold, then you're oiled. And a sailplane.

That is not new. Rotary overcooling has been a silly problem for years.
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#54 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 16:28

Wow I missed a lot while I was asleep!

In my mind, the Tripe can't be faster than the Camel, with its three wings and the same engine. And the Camel was slower than the Albatros. So the Tripe has to be slower than the Albatros, as well.

Jorri, the amount of wings doesn't matter, surface area matters. The Sopwith camel has longer, thicker wings than the triplane,a little fatter fuselage, more bracing wires, and twin guns. In my mind that would slow it down considerably more than the Tripehound (not to 98mph though).
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#55 gavagai

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 16:32

Wow I missed a lot while I was asleep!

In my mind, the Tripe can't be faster than the Camel, with its three wings and the same engine. And the Camel was slower than the Albatros. So the Tripe has to be slower than the Albatros, as well.

Jorri, the amount of wings doesn't matter, surface area matters.

Good! They have the same wing area. And the tripe's wing struts are longer, etc.
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#56 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 16:44

The Tripe's struts are also one solid piece instead of two and the wings are much thinner.

The Camel is only a few mph slower than the Triplane I don't know why that seems so implausible.
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#57 JG1_Lee_J10

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 16:52

Wow I missed a lot while I was asleep!

In my mind, the Tripe can't be faster than the Camel, with its three wings and the same engine. And the Camel was slower than the Albatros. So the Tripe has to be slower than the Albatros, as well.

Jorri, the amount of wings doesn't matter, surface area matters.

Good! They have the same wing area. And the tripe's wing struts are longer, etc.

Triplanes are slow. That middle wing doesn't do much but add DRAG. There is a reason the British only ordered 120 Tripes. The biplane (thus faster) Camel was on the way. Triplanes are a dead end. Ever hear of the German Triplane Craze? In response to the Tripes superior performance over the D2, over 30 German triplane prototypes were constructed. Know what? They were all SLOW.

The largest influence on basic performance is power loading, with rate of climb being almost totally dependent on it.

The Tripe and Dr.1 both had a good power loading, thus good climb. They are both slow.
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#58 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 16:58

Alright I'll cave, all the data is wrong unless it supports the D.Va going faster than the Tripe which will go 98mph indefinitely. At least now I can outrun a Dr.1 with my N.11 :S!:
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#59 Dressedwings

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:02

You can't just keep saying historically they only went 104 max without providing evidence

The DR1 weighs less but has a weaker engine and irrc a prop pitch more suitable for climbing, not maximum cruise speeds.
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#60 gavagai

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:02

You can't just keep saying historically they only went 104 max without providing evidence.

No one has made that claim. When we have these conversations, everything should be prefaced with "I could very well be wrong…"
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#61 Dressedwings

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:06

You can't just keep saying historically they only went 104 max without providing evidence.

No one has made that claim. When we have these conversations, everything should be prefaced with "I could very well be wrong…"

I could very well be wrong then, but there a lot of people willing to snub any idea of having a look at the Tripe because they think its realistic now.
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#62 JG1_Lee_J10

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:09

Jorri, the amount of wings doesn't matter, surface area matters. The Sopwith camel has longer, thicker wings than the triplane,a little fatter fuselage, more bracing wires, and twin guns. In my mind that would slow it down considerably more than the Tripehound (not to 98mph though).

From wind tunnel tests, the amount of wings does matter, and it matters a lot. The most efficient wing configuration is the monoplane. The flow around the wing is not influenced by any other surface.

Biplanes are second best. The two wings influence each other to reduce aerodynamic performance. That's the reason the wing gap is so important.

Triplanes are third best. The wings are all interfering with each other, making the middle wing a less effective lift producer and a big generator of drag.

That's the science. Notice the Germans were moving to monoplane fighters at war's end?

Now during the Great War, the early monoplane and biplanes had similar performance, with the biplanes being generally stronger. That was a result of materials and structural design. Thin wings, lot of wire bracing, wood and fabric et. al.

When the thick section cantilevered wing with strong main spar was figured out, the biplane and triplane went the way of the dodo.
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#63 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:16

The D.VIII does not come out unscathed. I hear it is slower, too.

——-

Scratch that it seems to me to still be fast.


Where did you hear that ? As far as I know D.VIII was not touched, the same goes for Hanriot HD.1 and DH2.

Now we have a Hanriot that is 20 km/h faster than the Camel which actually replaced the Hanriot HD.1 as being by far the better plane and we have a January 1916 N11 which is of the same speed as the middle of 1917 Camel. Then we have a Pup which is almost the same speed as DH2 and an outstanding 1918 D.VIII which is the fastet rotary right now with the exactly same engine as Dr.1 which is even slower than Camel now. The Tripe is the classical collateral damage in this case.

Thatswhy I think there is a lot of wotk here to put things into context properly.
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#64 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:20

Thank you Sahaj :S!:
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#65 Dressedwings

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:21

not to take apart anything that you said but the Nieuport 28 is the fastest rotory

DVIII-185

N28- 203
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#66 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:25

sure, forgot that flying brick … as being out of the planesets on the servers anyway
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#67 hq_Jorri

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:26

My thoughts:

- N11 was too fast to start with. It should definitely be slower
- Both Camel and Tripe deserve to be a little bit faster
- For sake of the game I think the Camel and DrI should be equally potential in a dogfight: the Camel being a bit faster, the Dr.I climbing better
- D.VIII was perfect (and unless they changed it, it still is)
- Hanriot is just silly
- Hey what about the Strutter? :D
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#68 JG1_Lee_J10

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:27

Where did you hear that ? As far as I know D.VIII was not touched, the same goes for Hanriot HD.1 and DH2.

Now we have a Hanriot that is 20 km/h faster than the Camel which actually replaced the Hanriot HD.1 as being by far the better plane and we have a January 1916 N11 which is of the same speed as the middle of 1917 Camel. Then we have a Pup which is almost the same speed as DH2 and an outstanding 1918 D.VIII which is the fastet rotary right now with the exactly same engine as Dr.1 which is even slower than Camel now. The Tripe is the classical collateral damage in this case.

Thatswhy I think there is a lot of wotk here to put things into context properly.

Aerodynamically, this is exactly the way it should be. Monoplanes are aerodynamically the most efficient and fastest all things being equal, biplanes have more drag than monoplanes so are slower, and triplanes have the most drag and are the slowest of the three configurations.
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#69 Dressedwings

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:49

well like I said its second fastest :D

Back to the topic at hand, anyone else fly it in MP besides me and gavigai? your thoughts of it? I can't catch the Pfalz at alt (or maybe I just suck)..
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#70 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 17:56

Where did you hear that ? As far as I know D.VIII was not touched, the same goes for Hanriot HD.1 and DH2.

Now we have a Hanriot that is 20 km/h faster than the Camel which actually replaced the Hanriot HD.1 as being by far the better plane and we have a January 1916 N11 which is of the same speed as the middle of 1917 Camel. Then we have a Pup which is almost the same speed as DH2 and an outstanding 1918 D.VIII which is the fastet rotary right now with the exactly same engine as Dr.1 which is even slower than Camel now. The Tripe is the classical collateral damage in this case.

Thatswhy I think there is a lot of wotk here to put things into context properly.

Aerodynamically, this is exactly the way it should be. Monoplanes are aerodynamically the most efficient and fastest all things being equal, biplanes have more drag than monoplanes so are slower, and triplanes have the most drag and are the slowest of the three configurations.

That would imply that 35 km/h difference between Dr.1 and D.VIII which we have realistically right now (the same engine) are only due to the wing structure ? Thus if the Camel is runnig 165 km/h the Tripe ought to be approx. by what 140 km/h according to your understanding ? or what ?
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#71 hq_Jorri

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 18:00

You conveniently forget that the D.VIII has almost half the wing surface of the Dr.I and completely lacks any struts and bracing wires. It also has a laminated wooden wing which is a lot smoother and doesn't flap in the wind like the Dr.I's.

Reducing drag like that is gonna do more for you than adding a few horsepower.

And as was just discussed above, the Triple and the Camel have exactly the same wing surface with the Camel having more bracing wires.
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#72 Dressedwings

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 18:13

another anecdotal:

Im no ace by any means, but twice the triplane was completely outclassed at 2000ft by the Albatros DIII, turn and speed.

this was on Aces Falling on Lake 1
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#73 hq_Jorri

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 18:28

Hi Dressed,

Duel server is up and hosting the Tripe, want to give it a try?
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#74 gavagai

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 18:33

I'm in!
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#75 hq_Jorri

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 18:34

Good man, on my way
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#76 Pirato

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 19:09

Okay,I too just tried the Tripe for the first time after the Update. I found the Tripe to be a formidable opponent when I was flying the Albatros before the update. Now it seems like it is just Albatros food. It loses its wings faster than before I think. It could aswell be a subjective impression though.
Don't get me wrong,I'm an Albatros pilot myself ever since I first sat in the D.III and I'm glad the Speed and FM got finaly adjusted. But it makes me sad that one of the planes that I found to be almost spot on got nerfed by a significant amount,although there was never anything negative to read about its performance.

Maybe we need to get adjusted ourselves to the new performance of the Tripe,but my first impression is that it will become as popular as the N28….almost never in use and forgotten by the rest.
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#77 gavagai

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 19:48

So far in our duels the Tripe has a small edge over the D.III. It is nothing like the dominance it used to show.
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#78 hq_Jorri

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 19:50

I've been having a few duels in the Tripe against the D.III now and while I'm not good enough a pilot to draw any conclusions about its superiority or inferiority, the conclusion that I can draw is perhaps an even more important one:

it's no longer the absolute delight to fly that it was before, they took the fun out of it.
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#79 Dressedwings

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 19:51

Yeah, Jorri and Lib saw my horrendous flying. Its like its constantly trying to end its own existence in turns.
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#80 hq_Jorri

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 19:58

Well I think it still slightly has the upper hand over the Albatros D.III, unless you count the Albs firepower of course.
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