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Can we have a discussion (for reals) about the Sopwith Tripe


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#361 Demon_

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 00:38

Are you expecting another fix update? Image They work on BoM (88): http://forum.il2stur...er-diary/page-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://forum.il2stur...k.com/topic/168 … ary/page-3
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#362 JG1_Lee_J10

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 14:49

Concerning why the Triplane was produced in low numbers and not further developed, Sopwith recognized its inherent limitations and focused their efforts on their ultimate Dog fighter, the Camel.

The biggest Triplane problem was too much stability, to the point that it couldn't be held in a steep dive. Sopwith spent a lot of effort experimenting with horizontal stabilizer configurations to address the issue.

The Camel was designed to be unstable for maximum manurverability, plus it was designed with two guns and to be easier to service. Thus the short Triplane caree.

:S!:
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#363 =HillBilly=

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 15:00

leeG What you are saying is that the Triplane wasn't the answer,but inspired a legend on both sides.
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     So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

 
 


#364 EmerlistDavjack

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 16:48

http://combatace.com...-vs-fokker-dr1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://combatace.com...ic/37929-sopwit … okker-dr1/

Here's a good perspective, that I will not claim my own, on the difference between the two Tripes. Further, the DR1 has no vertical stabilizer, so it is able to do the crazy yaw maneuvers Voss is said to have done, whereas the Sopwith cannot.

A good climb rate alone does not a good fighter make. The Dr1 had superior aspects to it that kept it in service despite the wing failures.
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#365 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 16:59

The biggest Triplane problem was too much stability, to the point that it couldn't be held in a steep dive. Sopwith spent a lot of effort experimenting with horizontal stabilizer configurations to address the issue.

The Triplane wasn't unable to go into a dive, the problem was keeping the wings on in a dive. The wing structure was a bit flimsy and required mostly on the flying & landing wires to keep them in working order.
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Liberator's Tutorials: http://steamcommunit...s/?id=438268482

 

 


#366 piecost

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 17:01

That is a great link, especially the part about Fokker improving aileron effectiveness by increasing the span and lowering the chord.

However frank tallman rated a replica Sopwith better than the replica Fokker he flew. So the detailed engineering of the replica should be considered as important as the original planes themselves.

From other posts here; different constructors of engines and airframes was critical as well
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#367 gavagai

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 17:53

Chuck compared the Fokker D.VII with the S.E.5a and stated that with Fokker D.VII you could make aileron turns, but with the S.E.5a the ailerons would only produce a yaw until you applied the rudder.

I'm sorry, but it has long seemed like roll rates and aileron rolls are off in Rise of Flight. It's the easiest thing in the world to accomplish (except for a few of the rotary scouts) but I could probably fly just fine without rudder input in most of the scouts.
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#368 1PL-Husar

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 20:14

Chuck compared the Fokker D.VII with the S.E.5a and stated that with Fokker D.VII you could make aileron turns, but with the S.E.5a the ailerons would only produce a yaw until you applied the rudder.

I'm sorry, but it has long seemed like roll rates and aileron rolls are off in Rise of Flight. It's the easiest thing in the world to accomplish (except for a few of the rotary scouts) but I could probably fly just fine without rudder input in most of the scouts.


I always had impressions that ROF planes does not have adverse yaw stimulated enough.
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#369 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 20:18

No Parachute - Arhtur Gould Lee

Mark the date it is 6th July 1917 :

[…] No.8 Naval Squadron have Sopwith Triplanes, the only British scout the Huns avoid. […]

- Albis D.Vs were just arriving at the front.

- No.46 squadron was still on Pups at this time.
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#370 piecost

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 21:53

Quote: "I'm sorry, but it has long seemed like roll rates and aileron rolls are off in Rise of Flight. It's the easiest thing in the world to accomplish (except for a few of the rotary scouts) but I could probably fly just fine without rudder input in most of the scouts."

I agree; there should be a big advantage in the sweet handling of the Fokker DVII over other aircraft, especially the Albatross series. We do not see that. This is allowing for the majority of us not having force feedback sticks. Much of handling is in the force feedback through the stick as well as the movement induced.

I also wonder if the flight simming perception of side-slip is too low. That is; unless careful notice is taken of the slip bubble then it is difficult to tell how much a plane is slipping, whereas a real pilot would notice immediately.

The wind on the face was apparently a useful slip indicator. This cannot be simulated. Perhaps Chill could enlighten us.
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#371 EmerlistDavjack

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 22:04

Great question for Chill, piecost. As for the game: if you listen close you are slipping when you can hear more wind. Hard to notice unless you know, I learned about it here on the forums months ago.

No Parachute - Arhtur Gould Lee

Mark the date it is 6th July 1917 :

[…] No.8 Naval Squadron have Sopwith Triplanes, the only British scout the Huns avoid. […]

- Albis D.Vs were just arriving at the front.

- No.46 squadron was still on Pups at this time.

Perhaps the Brits flying em thought it was their deadliness, but maybe the Germans feared the unknown.
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#372 1PL-Husar

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 23:50


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#373 1PL-Husar

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 18:14

I also wonder if the flight simming perception of side-slip is too low. That is; unless careful notice is taken of the slip bubble then it is difficult to tell how much a plane is slipping, whereas a real pilot would notice immediately.

The wind on the face was apparently a useful slip indicator. This cannot be simulated. Perhaps Chill could enlighten us.


Yes, it is hard to notice when in side-slip, what about streamer attached to wing, it should help to determine that plane is in side-slip?
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#374 piecost

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 01:02

Yes, it is fun to see how much slip can be achieved in a Sopwith and play back the track looking at the streamer from behind to visualise the yaw angle. It also shows the angle of attack and is getting towards vertical when a Fokker DRI does the weird LH power-on flat spin!

I love the flying shots in the video.

Notice how the tripe pilot glanced at the petrol and air levers. To be fair; he will only have a few minutes flight time on rotaries.

I finally found Frank Tallman's comparison of replica Sopwith and Fokker triplanes:

"Reflecting on the differences between the two planes [Sopwith Tripe and DRI], I feel that the Sopwith Triplane is infinitely superior. It is more controllable, lovlier on the ailerons, climbs faster, and the rollout on landing is easier" (I would note that the high tailwheel on his Tripe is probably the reason it is easier to handle on the ground due to better visibility and more vertical tail exposure to prop blast.)"

He reports on the DRI

"I have seen a number of the DRI copies, but so far have flown only ours. Reports vary considerably on their characteristics, and at least one owner admitted to me that he enjoyed flying it about as much as if he had climbed into a hive of bees in a bathing suit.

"This triplane of ours has gone through a painstaking development process equal to the Saturn rocket, and now really looks like Richtofen's airplane, with his colours and mark­ings. It has infinitely better aileron control than it had originally, due to control cable relocation and alteration of aileron hinges. It's now fun to fly."

I think that he compared the DRI to the Sopwith prior to the many modifications to improve the ailerons. AIlerons are often the hardest control to perfect. The Spitfire had many issues, for instance.
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#375 J2_Adam

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 01:22

I'm reading the extended Richthofen book again by Kilduff. Voss loved the Dr1 but richthofen apparently wasn't as font of it. Speaking of th F1 actually.
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#376 1PL-Husar

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 16:06

Yes, it is fun to see how much slip can be achieved in a Sopwith and play back the track looking at the streamer from behind to visualise the yaw angle. It also shows the angle of attack and is getting towards vertical when a Fokker DRI does the weird LH power-on flat spin!

 

Since i need new headphones and was looking for it and found that TDK life on record st600 has positioning vibration force. This could be programed to shake according to direction of side-slip ;) Next thing would be fan matrix hehe


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#377 Elem_Klimov

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 13:45

Notice how the tripe pilot glanced at the petrol and air levers. To be fair; he will only have a few minutes flight time on rotaries.

 

 

Not true! That is Roger Bailey, Chief Pilot of the Shuttleworth collection. He probably has more hours behind rotaries than anyone else in the country. I went to a lecture he gave on flying the collections A/C about a month ago. It takes 10 - 20 years for a qualified pilot to learn to fly the entire Shuttleworth collection. How many hours might that include behind rotaries?

 

Roger Bailey: started pilot training with the Royal Air Force in 1969, and later served with 48 Squadron, 24 Squadron, and 242 OCU as Co-pilot, Captain, and Training Captain respectively. He attended the Central Flying School in 1981 to train as a Qualified Flying Instructor and subsequently served on the Universities of Glasgow and Strathclyde Air Squadron. In 1986 he attended the United States Air Force Test Pilot School as an exchange student.

After graduating in December 1986 he joined Flight Systems Squadron at the Royal Aircraft Establishment, Bedford. He was appointed the Officer Commanding Aerospace Research Squadron in 1988 and retired from the Royal Air Force in December 1989. After leaving the RAF he joined the College of Aeronautics at Cranfield University as Chief Test Pilot, a post he holds to the present day. In 1989 he joined the volunteer pilot cadre of the Shuttleworth Collection, a museum of over thirty airworthy veteran aircraft. With the Shuttleworth Collection he has flown early aircraft including the Bristol Boxkite and Avro Triplane replicas and the Bleriot, Deperdussin and Blackburn original monoplanes.


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#378 Chill31

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 16:14

With regard to side slip...yes, the wind is a great indicator of whether or not you are coordinated.  The wind will open one side of your flight helmet and close the other (if it doesn't fit tightly as mine do not). 

 

As for adverse yaw in ROF...It is much too small when compared to the real airplane in my opinion.  If the Sopwith Tripe had twice as much adverse yaw, it would certainly be a pig in the sky.  The Dr1 has a lot of adverse yaw on its own, and when compared to my RV-8, it has a snails roll rate.  When compared to a Boeing Stearman, I would say the roll rate is about the same with lighter stick forces and more adverse yaw. (note, you can see the slip gage in my plane for most of the video. Not all slip gages are the same either)

 

Watch in this video at about 1:40.  You can see some turns left and right.  Notice how much the rudder is moving.  All of that movement is purely there to overcome adverse yaw.  At 2:00 you can see me do an aileron roll.  I use full aileron deflection during the roll, so if you want to compare it to ROF, you are welcome to do so. 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=8p_owOgO2aw


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#379 Hellbender

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 16:28

 

Chill, I find it absolutely amazing to watch you fly a real (homemade) Dr.I... And land between trees! Please be careful in that thing, though...

 

Actually, I've always meaning to ask: do you also need to use as much down elevator in the real thing to fly level?


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J5_Hellbender


#380 Chill31

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 16:38

Not stray off the Sopwith topic...but I think this same type of thing could be found in other FMs, so I will mention it here.

 

The Dr1 horizontal stabilizer has 4.7 degrees of aircraft nose down angle of incidence built into it.  I think that in ROF, they modeled it as zero degrees which is why we pilots have to add so much down elevator force.  I don't know the dimensions of any other WWI aircraft, but if others have the same "hidden" features, some of the quirks about them may be due to the same phenomenon. 

 

You can see in both mine and Mikael Carlson's videos that the amount of down elevator in flight never approaches what we see in ROF.  ROF graphically depicts almost full nose down elevator (watch the end of my video.  I taxi the Dr1 with almost full nose down in order to keep the tail light)


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#381 dixieflyer

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Posted 10 March 2015 - 00:25

Chill31, FWIW the Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter had an adjustable tailplane. 

 

Warren


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History is the lie we all agree upon.



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