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Weapons not effective?


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#1 Danziger

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 18:55

Ok so I am new to flying this thing. I have finally got the graphic settings to where the game is playable on my rig and the stick settings customized so that I can fly steady. Before I try to dogfight, I am setting up a quick mission with only friendlies to practice on.

I notice that it takes approximately one million shots to bring down a plane…
Even with the 11mm guns I had to follow this guy shooting at him for like 15 minutes before he finally went down.

I shot up a few vehicles on the ground just fine but for some reason planes are almost impossible.
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#2 ZachariasX

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 21:34

Go closer. Much closer.

Z
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#3 Danziger

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 22:37

That's the thing, I used friendlies that wouldn't fly away or shoot back for target practice. I get right up behind them and hover there firing and firing. I can see rounds hitting and the engine will start to smoke but that is all. The only way for me to finally bring them down was to ram them.
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#4 Panthercules

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Posted 07 December 2014 - 22:58

Might be a good idea to post a track showing what you're doing/seeing - that way maybe others can give you some feedback about your techniques.
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#5 Ghost_666

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 02:30

:) Hi, welcome to this frustrating, rewarding addictive game.

For me the hardest way to damage a plane is to be at the same level and on his 6. The bullets just pass between, over, and under the wings. And the ones that strike the rear do very little, nothing back there. Try attacking from a little above or below, even from an side angle. This way more surface area is showing and the pilot and engine are not protected by the rear(I would say fuseladge, but I spell poorly) :lol: of the plan.
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Circling, Circling, in the sun.  Desperately trying to use my gun.  Up and down and around about.  Left and right I through my Scout.  When I had that Hun, on the run.  My little Newport she spun.  Down and down, with speed I went.  Into the ground, without wings I was sent.  In the mess the empty chair is set.  My flying time is spent.

 


#6 Danziger

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 02:57

Yes what I do is come behind and then slow down and float behind them sliding sideways from one side to the other. Every time I get to the outside and turn back toward them it gives me a good 3/4 angle and I shoot into the engine compartment and cockpit. I did finally manage to shoot one down but not before all of the gunners tore my plane to pieces. I am guessing it will take zooming by with a lot of quick passes to get planes down without getting killed. I was thinking about buying the S.E.5a but it does not have any larger caliber weapon upgrade.
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#7 Dressedwings

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 03:09

you can generally kill the pilot in one or two bursts if youre within 10m, because the spread is little enough for it to be concentrated in the same spot.

I agree with Panthercules, a video would be useful
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#8 Thaatu

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 07:13

Aiming is quite difficult without pedals. Twist will do, but not nearly as well as pedals. Practice against single-seaters or F.E.2bs. The latter's gunner has a very limited arc of fire, while other two-seaters tend to be quite difficult to deal with, unless you know a few tricks. Start easy and build up your skills from there.
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#9 Agent86

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 14:06

Short Bursts :S!:
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#10 J2_Jakob

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 15:07

That's the thing, I used friendlies that wouldn't fly away or shoot back for target practice. I get right up behind them and hover there firing and firing. I can see rounds hitting and the engine will start to smoke but that is all. The only way for me to finally bring them down was to ram them.

If you get right behind him, don't waste ammo shooting directly from his six. Get off his six slightly, use rudder + opposite aileron to get into a side-slip. This way you can shoot slightly from left/right side. Aim for meat/metal and there will be no more obstacles in your bullet's flight path. 1 sec burst is usually enough to set him afire or kill the pilot.
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#11 Danziger

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 15:19

If you get right behind him, don't waste ammo shooting directly from his six. Get off his six slightly, use rudder + opposite aileron to get into a side-slip. This way you can shoot slightly from left/right side. Aim for meat/metal and there will be no more obstacles in your bullet's flight path. 1 sec burst is usually enough to set him afire or kill the pilot.

This is exactly what I do. I stay within 20m of the target and sweep from one side to the other and put a burst into the engine or cockpit when I get my good angle view.
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#12 Danziger

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 16:31

Ok so I know it isn't a problem with the game because I just downed a couple of S.E.5a in a Quick Mission. Maybe it just takes a lot more to down a bomber? Also, is it better to use the stock .30 caliber guns or the .45 caliber balloon guns? I know the .45s should be heavier bullets but how are they with penetration? Would the smaller and faster .30 caliber rounds be more suited to piercing airframes?
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#13 Danziger

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 01:22

So it just takes a lot of practice apparently. Now I have been putting enemy flights into QMB and I took down 5/5 R.E.8s while the rest of my flight was still trying to climb to altitude. I created a massive furball at high altitude and knocked down 3 Fokker D.VIIs. The only thing is I didn't know that I got the other two Fokkers until afterward. Is there no way for it to let you know you destroyed an enemy during the flight?
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#14 LukeFF

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 01:36

Is there no way for it to let you know you destroyed an enemy during the flight?

Press the Tab button, and you'll see your in-flight statistics.
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#15 J2_Jakob

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 11:22

Is there no way for it to let you know you destroyed an enemy during the flight?
If you use icons, when you destroy an enemy (i.e. his engine is aflame or siezed, pilot killed), his icon will disappear. This is the only way (beside checking through TAB as Luke has suggested) I know of.
Or you can simply keep an eye on the enemy and you will suddenly know he's done for, and why… (propellor stopped spinning, pilot collapsed in his seat, rudder shot off, etc.)
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#16 Pursuivant

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 17:26

Hold your fire until you're within 100 meters, preferably a LOT closer, like within 25 meters or less. Just make sure you don't collide!

For a single-engined plane, always aim for the target's nose, so that you get "meat or metal" hits against the engine, fuel tank or pilot. For two-seaters, aim for the point where the wings and fuselage cross so that you'll get the gunner. Then move in for the kill and aim just ahead of the nose.

If the target is turning hard and is moving fairly fast, you need to give your shot a bit of deflection. If you're within 100 meters, aim so that your bullets are just ahead of the target's nose, or maybe a plane length ahead if you're a bit further away and the target is fairly fast moving. Closer than 25 meters and no deflection is needed.

Try to avoid shots directly from behind. Instead, try to get a bit of an angle above or below your target so there's more surface area exposed. The exception is against pusher aircraft, where you should aim at the engine from directly behind.

You might also be hitting your target without knowing it.

Minor engine hits aren't obvious in the game. One or more steady streams of white vapor indicates a fuel tank hit or possibly a coolant hit. Irregular puffs of black smoke indicate an engine hit. A steady stream of black smoke indicates serious engine damage.

Pilot wounding results aren't shown, instead, the target plane will seem to become less maneuverable. Dead crew slump in the cockpit (even in an overturned plane!) or vanish (RoF doesn't model crew falling overboard).

Damage to plane surfaces often only appears as a bagging of canvas, but more severe damage is indicated by shredding. Damage to rigid structures can appear as a slight crumpling or bending rigid structures, or as broken wing struts. At a distance or in a fast-moving turn fight, it can be difficult to detect this sort of damage.

When strafing or attacking balloons from above, you want to aim a bit below where you think your bullets will fall.

Another thing is that many WW1 era planes didn't have well mounted gunsights. Unless you have a TrackIR or similar system, you can't quickly line your eye up with the gunsights mounted on many planes. Even then, there's no guarantee that your eye is exactly aligned with an iron sight and you lose a lot of situational awareness as you try to precisely line up your shot.

In particular, the Albatros series, the DR1 and the SE5A have very poorly chosen gunsight mountings. When flying those planes, you have to choose an arbitrary point on the plane to use as a gunsight and forgo long-ranged shots.

On the SE5A, the nut at the top of the ring mounted directly in front of the cockpit seems to be a pretty good aiming point. On the DR1, its the point where the wing bracing wire cross. On the Albatros series, its a point just below the radiator cap (which means that the engine partially blocks the target if your aim is correct).

I retrained myself in air gunnery the WW1 way by using icons on and pausing the game frequently to observe where my bullets hit. Against late war fighters, FE2B, DH2 or EIII make for slow moving, hapless prey. (But damn I wish I had BE2s to practice on!)

If you're very close, you can actually see where your tracers went. Take a shot and quickly pause the game. Press Shift F2 to shift to the enemy's view and adjust your field of view so you can see the smoke trails left by your bullets. Zoom on the enemy plane using the mouse wheel to look for subtle damage.

After a while, you'll get a fairly good sense of where your shots went. Getting "historical ace" level gunnery skill takes time. I'm still working on being able to consistently get engine or pilot kills. More typically, my kills shed a wing, which means that my gunnery was off.
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#17 Danziger

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 19:06

This is very good information. Thank you very much. I have found that I was hitting my targets all along and just not seeing pieces of the plane falling off like I am used to in Il-2 1946. I had been making kills and not knowing it. The only time that I was sure I got a kill (before I found out about the in flight statistics button) was when I broke someone's wing off and they went falling to the ground. Since then I have noticed that I have killed pilots and gunners and the plane kept on flying off into the sunset with me getting credit for the kill. I think my problem boiled down to not seeing the effects of my shots very well. This is no doubt a lot more realistic but I was just used to seeing the little chunks of debris fall away when hitting a plane in Il-2. Or if you damage a plane that later falls when you are somewhere else not able to see a small message pops up saying "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" on the side of the screen. I have been flying the SPAD XIII that comes with the free-to-play version of the game. I love the SPAD. To me it is the most beautifully designed fighter of the period. The Albatros is the most beautiful German design to me as well. So I could get all I need with just the free version. However, the S.E.5a just has the rugged looks of a machine designed for battle. If I buy this plane does it come with the weapon upgrades and sights and so on or do I have to buy those separately?
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#18 LukeFF

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 19:45

However, the S.E.5a just has the rugged looks of a machine designed for battle. If I buy this plane does it come with the weapon upgrades and sights and so on or do I have to buy those separately?

There are no weapon mods for the SE5a, but there is a field mod package, and yes, it's bought separately. Check the Store pages. :)
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#19 Cybermat47

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 21:50

However, the S.E.5a just has the rugged looks of a machine designed for battle. If I buy this plane does it come with the weapon upgrades and sights and so on or do I have to buy those separately?

There are no weapon mods for the SE5a, but there is a field mod package, and yes, it's bought separately. Check the Store pages. :)

And the field mod pack comes with the Aldis Sights, so it's worth the money :)
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"If I could only have brought him down alive."
- Lieutenant Arthur Rhys-Davids, recalling his victory over Leutnant Werner Voss.

#20 NewGuy_

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 00:49

This is a track from one of my old ROF multiplayer missions. I uploaded this so new ROF players can see a couple of gunnery mistakes and a pretty good example of gunnery.

At 20 seconds, notice that I pull the trigger. At this point, I am shooting too far away, I have not stabilized my gunnery platform, and I take my shot without the correct lead. I easily miss the target. The second time I pull the trigger, at around 23 seconds, I make the same mistakes and one of my team members is ahead of me. My team member is probably fixated on the two seater and might drift in front of me or even collide with me. The third shot is a pretty good shot, but why? I achieve over fifty percent hit rate, kill the observer and the pilot, but only because I am close in.

On my third shot, I fire before I get a chance to stabilize my machine, Star Wars stormtrooper style. Ideally, I should try to keep my machine as stable as possible. Now, if I took that shot from far away, I would mostly, if not entirely, miss that two seater. Because I am close in, I easily get over fifty percent of my rounds on target. Notice that I take the shot off to the side. This allows me to hit the observer, pilot, and engine, my three targets.

Because this is a two seater, with an observer in the rear, I try to kill the observer first. You should kill the person presenting the greatest threat to you, first. When dealing with a two seater, that person is usually the observer. Once the observer is dead, you should aim for the engine, the pilot, or both the engine and the pilot.

Thoughts on two seaters:
So, I spot a two seater. The two seater is being attacked by multiple players on my team. While it is generally a good idea to have, at most, two scouts attack a single enemy scout, it is a great idea to have, at least, two scouts attack a two seater. At a minimum, you should have one scout to distract the observer and another scout to shoot and kill the observer. Whichever scout is being attacked by the observer is defensive, whichever scout is not under attack should be killing the observer.


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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#21 DaveSax

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 11:43

Seriously, during WW1, many pilots did blaze away at aircraft, taking 250-500 rounds to down an opponent. There were supposedly exceptions to the rule - Fonck, for example, boasted that he "placed bullets as if by hand" and claimed he shot aircraft down with just six rounds, but most of what Fonck came up with was on the outer edge of belief.

Spray and pray doesn't work in RoF. You need to get as close as possible, aim well, and then your opponent falls down. To paraphrase Von Richtofen, I think. ;-) If you approach it like an arcade game… prepare for disappointment.

Press Win key A for aiming help. This will show you the amount of lead you have to give targets moving away from you. Don't rely on it, though. It'll just give you a handy hint, but it's not good to have it on all the time, as you'll lose concentration following the icon. Fire in very short bursts, as the more shots you fire continuously, the more the guns move in the mounts and the less accurate the burst is. (You may get a lucky shot in, though.) Hit autopilot, F2, F8 and watch how the AI does it, as well. It takes a lot of practice to be sure of hitting your opponent.
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#22 =HillBilly=

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 14:37

Fonck, for example, boasted that he "placed bullets as if by hand" and claimed he shot aircraft down with just six rounds, but most of what Fonck came up with was on the outer edge of belief.
Sounds like Fonck was full of Fonck. :D
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     So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

 
 


#23 Wykletypl

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 15:46

Well, if You want to talk about ineffective weapons, listen to that:I was on a career mission for Belgium, I shot down three DFW. C.Vs, then tried shooting down a baloon. And that baloon was like on God Mode - I made two passes, starting opening fire at 500 metres (That was my tactic against baloons, and it worked thus far), and it still didn't blow up. What the hell just happened there?
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#24 DaveSax

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 16:06

You missed ? ;-)

No, seriously, balloons are tough.
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#25 Wykletypl

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 16:09

You missed ? ;-)

No, seriously, balloons are tough.

Well, that's a problem. I did not miss. And it should have burnt after one pass.
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#26 =HillBilly=

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 16:18

And it should have burnt after one pass.
One pass is usually not enough unless you have two guns and a high rate of fire.
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     So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

 
 


#27 Wykletypl

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 18:02

And it should have burnt after one pass.
One pass is usually not enough unless you have two guns and a high rate of fire.

It was done with Sopwith Camel serving Belgium.
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#28 hq_Jorri

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 18:20

It was done with Sopwith Camel serving Belgium.

Well, there's yer problem
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#29 Wykletypl

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Posted 28 December 2014 - 18:23

Well, there's yer problem

Huh????
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#30 DaveSax

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 09:28

:-)
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#31 LukeFF

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 15:52

Well, there's yer problem

Huh????

It was a joke. :)
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#32 Wykletypl

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 18:16

Well, there's yer problem

Huh????

It was a joke. :)

Then maybe I shall reveal one thing about me, just so that You may keep in mind for the future. I am what the character says about himself here: https://www.youtube....h?v=v-4C6FUS4lY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">
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#33 hq_Jorri

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 18:38

Sorry for the confusion Wykletypl.

It was a lame joke, anyway, but sometimes I cannot resist making even the lamest of jokes.
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#34 1PL-Husar

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 10:25

For my little experience when I’m closing to enemy six and try to aim for gunner (knowing that only 4 bullets will kill him) and when my platform is steady  I’m unable to kill him in first pass because of big dispersion cone. In result I’m spraying whole plane and maybe hit him once. I don't like that. And how close I have to be to the enemy gunner to know that probability dispersion cone is minimal? I think when reticle is filed with his body (but still there is no point to aim for given body parts) then I will register some sure hits instead relay only on probability.

That reticle distance is to close for Sunday flyer like me, why? - it is prone to collision. This fact give me impression to shoot from bigger distances - when I can’t be focused on gunner  - because bigger con will register some hits, doesn’t matter if I’m aim precisely or not - probability will do. That doesn’t sounds good for me and I don’t shoot like that. I like to aim precisely and do react in spilt second, not spray and prey from long distance. With smaller dispersion - not shotgun like spread I would know it will be hard and I will miss my shoots and won't wound/kill gunner but I will know that I could improve by training.  But if that changed the wing DM should be changed to allowing bullets to passing through canvas.

Ps. quotes from theaerodrome forum:

"The problem was not within gun and cartridge, I believe. According to the Leon Bennett's book, the tight bullet pattern was not an advantage for aerial gunnery from either fixed or trainable gun positions. The tight bullet pattern warrants zero hits if aiming point was misjudged by about 10 feet".

"In my opinion, it was almost impossible to keep the aiming point over the target for more than a couple of seconds, except at very close ranges (e.g. 50 yards), or at high altitudes, when target aeroplane was near ceiling but interceptor being able to climb further or to maneuver with a considerable safety margin"

"I agree with you when you point out that if the aim is wrong, a straight trajectory is of no advantage" (given that object in game are small it will make shooting more difficult - consider bullets size?)”

"about the vibration of the airframe throwing the aim off.  I agree about negligible effect of airframe vibration (until prop blades remain in place)"

"…they go on about the vibration of the airframe throwing the aim off. Any small plane I've been in, like Aeronca's and Cubs, vibrate your teeth out while on the ground, but smooth right out as soon as the wheels leave Terra Firma. Without the unforgiving planet's mass to reflect the vibration, it seems to disperse into the air harmlessly. Without this effect, the old North Star with its four Merlins would never have flown a single paying passenger, at least not twice"

"Recoil of the Lewis (Schwarzloze) mounted above the upper wing thus far above c.g. was not insignificant"

"At lower altitudes and quite low wing loads turbulence can play havoc with shooters aim"

"Coming back to dispersion figures, today I’ve found the following reference in the net: http://homepage.eirc...sandDamage.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://homepage.eirc...et/~frontacs/WB … amage.html

According to this reference, RAF air to air gunnery manuals volume 7 from 1940 and 1943 and items from the instructor training course from the RAF Central Gunnery School report:

….. bullet grouping for a world war one aircraft at 250yds is a 20ft diameter circle and for world war two aircraft at 400yds is a 20ft diameter circle below 1000ft this becomes a 25ft diameter circle due to turbulence and at night is some value less (no value given) effects which can increase the dispersion values are unsyncronised guns, a gun stoppage, aircraft control inputs……".

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34zg6jd.jpg


#35 Ravindu_Shashika

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 12:38

hey, friend I got the same problem at the beginning. That time my aim was little bit shaky because I fly in 3rd person view. but when I'm got to the cockpit It was very easy to aim and fire. You need to get closer to the enemy and target cockpit and engine. For Albys just shoot the elevator. Its a useless plane without that. for bombers target the wings. Its easy to destroy wings than the engine in a bomber. ☺☻♠


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#36 KurtZibling

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 03:25

Just aim for the engine or wings. He'll soon fall.


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