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#1 20m

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 06:01

Greetings,

I've just purchased Rise of Flight, and after achieving sufficient mastery of basic takeoffs and landings to be assured of survival at least two-thirds of the time, I attempted to scrape the rust off my old Red Baron 3D dogfighting skills and see if I could swat a few enemy kites out of the sky. I have since remembered two important facts:

1) Red Baron 3D's flight physics weren't exactly realistic, and
2) I'm a terrible pilot. :xx:

So I was wondering, are there any decent resources for basic flight training for this game? I've found Requiem's channel, but I need something more basic. Something with headings like, "How to Turn without Falling out of the Sky." I attempted a quick dogfight today, and startled myself by doing precisely that. Fortunately I'd turned off collisions, so I merely bounced, but even so it was terribly embarrassing. I tried turning on the easy piloting mode, but that seems to make things worse, as now the controls are horribly sluggish and unresponsive.

Any suggestions for a poor pilot who just wants to keep his plane properly above-ground?

Thanks,

:20m
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#2 Jellybeantiger

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 08:06

He is a smart arse isn't he.

Knows the planes inside and out and knows it too.

Probably a very nice bloke if I met him as long as I don't fly on his server.
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#3 JoeCrow

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 11:41

You are right. There is no primary flight-training mode within ROF…which kind of leaves completely new pilots in the lurch. If you are prepared to go Multiplayer right from the start there are some excellent servers which cater specifically for the new pilot and I thoroughly recommend these (no doubt they will also post here).
However, for basic flight-training at home you will probably need to consider a stand-alone flight simulator which incorporates a flying-school. It all depends how far you are prepared to go. X-plane, with its excellent add-on flying school is a good place to start if you want to learn to fly basic flight manoeuvres and anything from the Wright biplane to the Space-Shuttle…

That said, some folks are very successful using trial-and-error and picking up useful tips as they go along. That can and does work but it is an extremely long learning process (but also fun).

Requiem doesn't pretend to be a primary flying-school but continues the learning process from that point onwards.

There is undoubtably a gap in the market.
Cheers.
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#4 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 12:11

1. This is based on personal experiences, not tried and tested method. Worked for me.

2. Start with Albatros D.Va, it's most forgiving to new pilots. The only thing you can't do safely in it is steep dive. Leave Entente planes for now, they are more specialised than German ones - have more strengths, but also more weaknesses you need to know how to avoid.

3. If you don't use AI mods, use quick missions to arrange some dogfights against computer-controlled Nieuport 17. Stock AI is very bad at flying N.17, it'll make easy target.

4. Don't wait with starting a SP career until you can fly (again, I recomment an Albatros career). The worst that can happen is that you crash and need to restart mission (or career). You'll have flight to follow, wingmen to not crash into, enemy balloons to practice gunnery on, plenty of things to keep you busy while you pick up the basics.
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#5 HotleadColdfeet

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 13:24

Hello 20m! Welcome to the Forum! You don't need to be a professional at pc flying to have fun and enjoy the game. Heck, we all had to start somewhere! ;) As Trupobaw already said, I would set up a few quick missions where you fly an Albatross. That is an excellent starter kite, let me assure you. Then once you feel more confident, you could try out the Pfalz D.IIIa or the Fokker DVII/DVIIF. Both are still relatively docile, but have more fine-tuned strengths and weaknesses. After more practice - if you're feeling brave - you can hop into a rotary like the Dr 1, Sopwith Triplane, Sopwith Pup or…gulp, the Sopwith Camel. All of these have stellar dogfighting characteristics, but must be flown just so. They will spin violently if flown out if their parameters (the Camel in particular) and recovery can be very difficult. Don't let that dissuade you though. These rotaries turn the tightest of any in ROF, so mastering them (eventually) is a worthy goal. But you don't have to do it all in a day. Just practice whenever you feel like it. If you want to try out an aircraft just for the fun of it, go for it! :D

By the way, if you ever decide to go into multiplayer, here's an article I wrote that may be of use:
New to Multiplayer? Some advice
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#6 20m

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 14:29

Thanks for the advice, folks. I can't afford X-Plane at the moment, so I guess I'll muddle through on my own. :) Hopefully I'll eventually figure out how to make something like the rapid turns that were a staple of RB3D dogfighting without flipping over, stalling, spinning, and impaling myself on a tree. It's surprising how many trees there are in France. And they're all unusually sharp.
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#7 ChiefRedCloud

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 16:12

Welcome to Rise of Flight 20m. I'm one of the groups that Joe mentioned would be along shortly. I'm one of the volunteers over at New Wings Virtual Flight Training. We try to help NEW or returning pilots such as your self with RoF. We are not a full fledged full time Flight School but we all help where we can. We operate 3 online servers starting with our Basic Training server and moving through our PvP (Pilot vs Pilot) and to our Full Real server Wargrounds. We can arrange one on one help if you would like to contact us on our forums or in our TeamSpeak channel. TS is required for any instructions as typing and flying is not an good option.

Our Basic Training server is set up with a rotating venue of ALL available aircraft to RoF. If you own it, we have it available for you. Within the BT server you will find plenty of space to just fly or practice against varying degrees of enemy AI. There also ground targets and balloons to shoot at or learn to bomb or recon.

We have a wealth of information on our forums of which you have already found Requiem's resources. There is also New Flyers and Friends who offer their services to all NEW or returning pilots.

Also there is a wealth of information available within the 777 forums from many experience Sim Pilots. All you have to do is ask and be patient.

Below you will find a couple of videos from 777 about BASIC flying that may help. Keep in mind that if you do not have lift under your wings, you fall. Basic aerodynamics, more power through turns till you level out with air under your wings.

I should add that we have our Tuesday Night Fly-In on our Basic Training server each Tuesday night at 09:30 EST. Our volunteers and both experienced and new pilots will be there. All are welcome.





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#8 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 16:21

From your OP you already said you can take off and land, so by-pass the X-plane advice…

Do your best at exercising a light touch on the joystick, "ham fisting" it will get you into trouble with the ground. I agree, start with an easy handling aircraft, don't fly the rotaries for a long time (even then, you'll feel like you are starting all over again).

WWI aircraft did not have balanced ailerons, so piloting was in fact classic stick and rudder. if you don't start an aggressive turn with some rudder in the proper direction, chances are you will experience negative (or is it inverse?) yaw. This is when even if you think you have the proper inputs, the aircraft turns the other way. It is modeled correctly in the sim, though is damn frustrating.

Take small steps, rejoice at accomplishments, and be glad you weren't really there for 20 min. :S!:
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#9 FourSpeed

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 18:07

Greetings,

I've just purchased Rise of Flight, and after achieving sufficient mastery of basic takeoffs and landings to be assured of survival at least two-thirds of the time, I attempted to scrape the rust off my old Red Baron 3D dogfighting skills and see if I could swat a few enemy kites out of the sky. I have since remembered two important facts:

1) Red Baron 3D's flight physics weren't exactly realistic, and
2) I'm a terrible pilot. :xx:

So I was wondering, are there any decent resources for basic flight training for this game? I've found Requiem's channel, but I need something more basic. Something with headings like, "How to Turn without Falling out of the Sky." I attempted a quick dogfight today, and startled myself by doing precisely that. Fortunately I'd turned off collisions, so I merely bounced, but even so it was terribly embarrassing. I tried turning on the easy piloting mode, but that seems to make things worse, as now the controls are horribly sluggish and unresponsive.

Any suggestions for a poor pilot who just wants to keep his plane properly above-ground?

Thanks,

:20m
Hi 20m,

Welcome to Rise of Flight!

There's plenty of good advice in this thread - personally, I can't stand X-Plane,
but if you have FSX, it does have a series of tutorials for basic flight which are
decent enough.

Additionally, there are all kinds of pilot training videos and resources on the web
for you to review (if you're so-inclined).

That said, there is simply no substitute for hopping into your RoF kite and flying
around. :P

If you're not interested in setting up "scenarios" in QMB (Quick Mission Builder), no
worries - the Fly Now missions are pre-made and offer a lot of flying opportunity
with or without targets (just avoid the marked areas on your map and you won't have
to fight anything).

As ChiefRedCloud mentioned, New Wings has a couple of multiplayer servers that can be
helpful for new pilots, and doubly so when you can fly (and get help) with experienced
flyers that can often be found there.

As for specific RoF tips, here are a few to get you through the basics.

1> Turn "Easy Mode" off - that's actually a detriment. DO use a joystick (using the
keyboard as a primary flight control will be very frustrating).

2> Initially, DO use icons, DO use auto mixture and radiator (there will be
a time when you'll want to get away from those, and in fact, *some* servers(like
our own Wargrounds won't allow them)), but if your first goal is to simply fly the
airplane(s), using these, at first, is quite helpful.

3> DO learn to fly from inside the cockpit view - the outside views ARE very nice
to look at, so DO enjoy them, but learning to fly using those will only lead to a habit
you'd need to unlearn fairly soon.

As for the flying itself, I'd recommend two planes to start with (1 central, 1 entente)
and as Trupobaw mentioned, the Albatros DVa (or *any* of the Albies) are a perfect
choice for Central, and I'd recommend the SE5a on the Entente side. Fly those until
you're comfy with flight basics (Takeoffs, landings, turns, climbs, descents, stalls,
and even, spins).

Some pitfalls to be aware of and avoid:

1> Flying too nose-high. These aren't F16's :mrgreen: Most of them basically have glorified
motorcycle engines. Assume (till you know otherwise) that they're ALL underpowered.
Climb rates of 500 fpm aren't unusual - that's *only* 8 feet / per second - keep
the nose just barely above the horizon (Shift A - "altitude hold", will show you the
proper view for level flight - learn that view for each plane you fly).

2> Steep Dives and Hard Pull-ups. Again, these planes are made of wood and cloth,
not titanium - it is (comparatively) easy to tear them apart.

3> Don't over-rev the engines - they're weak and fragile - in dives, the engines will
over-rev and break, spewing oil all over the place. The simple guages (Ctrl I) will
show you the redline on the tachometer - Don't exceed that or you will break the
engine.



Ok, enough with the dire warnings… :D


Hop in your plane, and Have Fun flying it! The scenery is gorgeous, the flights are nice
and slow, and in the right environment (with nobody shooting at you), the flying is
fabulous.

Additionally, nearly all the planes are fully aerobatic, so loops, rolls, hammerheads,
immelmans and whatnot are all available to add to the fun – Enjoy!


Cheers,
4 :S!:
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#10 20m

20m
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Posted 15 September 2014 - 19:30

Welcome to Rise of Flight 20m. I'm one of the groups that Joe mentioned would be along shortly. I'm one of the volunteers over at New Wings Virtual Flight Training. We try to help NEW or returning pilots such as your self with RoF. We are not a full fledged full time Flight School but we all help where we can. We operate 3 online servers starting with our Basic Training server and moving through our PvP (Pilot vs Pilot) and to our Full Real server Wargrounds. We can arrange one on one help if you would like to contact us on our forums or in our TeamSpeak channel. TS is required for any instructions as typing and flying is not an good option.



I should add that we have our Tuesday Night Fly-In on our Basic Training server each Tuesday night at 09:30 EST. Our volunteers and both experienced and new pilots will be there. All are welcome.

Thank you, I'll see about getting some headphones so I can use TeamSpeak, and I'll have to drop by your Fly-In one of these Tuesdays. Invitation greatly appreciated. And I'm most impressed to learn that you actually teach people, live. I was thinking in terms of websites and YouTubings, not actual flight instruction!

Do your best at exercising a light touch on the joystick, "ham fisting" it will get you into trouble with the ground. I agree, start with an easy handling aircraft, don't fly the rotaries for a long time (even then, you'll feel like you are starting all over again).

Yes, that is precisely my problem. Red Baron 3D dogfighting was a matter of turning until the wings are vertical, yanking back on the stick, and eventually hoping to out-turn the enemy. I spent too much time doing that 15 years or so ago, and some of the muscle memory still remains. Fists of pork products, indeed. :roll:

As for specific RoF tips, here are a few to get you through the basics.

Good advice, thanks. I dropped easy mode quickly, but I'm using simplified physics as my crutch at the moment. I did manage to shoot down an Alabtros D.II, twice (the second time I even managed to avoid ripping my own wings off when I turned to see if he'd crashed), but it took long enough that the pilot could have written a letter to his younger brother imploring him to enlist in Die Fliegertruppe, tossed it toward the German lines, waited for it to be picked up and carried back to the parental home in Köln, marked off the days until the end of the school term, cheered his sibling on through a leisurely but accomplished flight training, sent him a congratulatory magnum of champagne for his graduation, let him sleep it off the next morning, and finally awaited a mildly hung-over late afternoon patrol and still had reasonable hopes of being rescued from my rather inexpertly piloted Pup. :S!:

I'll try the S.E.5a next. Perhaps a dose of stability is what I need.

:20m
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#11 Thaatu

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 14:31

It really gets interesting, compared to RB3D, when you start using manual radiator and mixture. You might actually want to try some two-seaters, DFW C.V or R.E.8, before proceeding to single seat scouts. They are usually more stable and easier to handle than scouts. Plus accomplishing their missions don't require you to fight the enemy, just to evade them, which provides for good practice.



Starting with the Pup is like jumping to the deep end with punctured armbands. Kudos! :S!:
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#12 20m

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 02:32

This isn't precisely about sources of flight training, but I thought it might be rude to start a new thread about my continuing quest for new and interesting ways to crash in ROF. :)

I'm trying to make sense of the S.E.5a, and so far, I can't. I get that it's not a turn fighter, I have no problem with that. But just trying to practice the maneuvers I'd need for an "energy fighter," as Requiem calls it in his videos, is turning out to be rather fatal. For instance, I cannot make the plane do a simple loop. I dive until I'm flying at 150 mph – a speed high enough that starting the loop without ripping my wings off is not guaranteed – and even so the plane will not loop. It just climbs, stalls, and sort of flops over.

Other times, I'll be flying at 100-120 mph, try to climb steeply in order to attempt some maneuver or other, and I barely get the nose up before it stalls and flops into a spin or near-spin. Requiem's strafing video suggests half a Cuban 8 after each strafing run, but that's out of the question. Trying to do the climb-and-roll maneuvers in his "boom and zoom" video just results in a stall.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume I'm doing something wrong. :) I'm hoping someone will have a clue as to what it is. What baffles me is that it doesn't seem to matter whether I try to maneuver sharply or gently. If the nose rises, the plane stalls.
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#13 ciki

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 02:57

don't fly rotaries… landing, landings, landins and try to do some maneuveres while staying above or close the airfield. stay with one plane for some time
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#14 JoeCrow

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 06:39

I dive until I'm flying at 150 mph – a speed high enough that starting the loop without ripping my wings off is not guaranteed – and even so the plane will not loop. It just climbs, stalls, and sort of flops over.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume I'm doing something wrong. :)

A loop is really just an energy-bleeding turn flipped on its side and is a manoeuvre best left to turnfighters. In the Se5a you should be able to enter a vertical zoom-climb at 150 mph without difficulty. Usually, the problem of rapid speed fall-off in a zoom-climb is that you are simply pulling the stick back too far and too fast. Keep your eye on the airspeed indicator and relax the stick a little for a smooth pull up. As you approach the vertical try slowly relaxing the stick to the neutral position, or even slightly forward, and this will help to preserve airspeed. As you reach the top of the zoom-climb, with the stick still relaxed, you should still have enough airspeed left to smoothly 'pull over the top' (you can 'pull over the top' at any point in a zoom-climb). If not, keep the nose vertical and kick full side-rudder to bring the nose down (a hammerhead).
Zoom-climbs are an essential part of energy fighting but the technique requires a little enjoyable practice. It is really all a matter of speed and energy management…and remembering that you are not trying to outturn anything, so if the other guy pulls a loop you zoom-climb to stay above him. The chances are that he will have no idea where you are.

Cheers.
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#15 20m

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 17:12

Am I wrong in thinking that the main component of a loop is pulling the stick back most or all the way, and leaving it there? I'm sure one can vary the size of the loop by pulling the stick back to different angles, but at its core, it's a stick-back maneuver that results in a constant upward pitch until you pass the vertical, go horizontal again, then vertical again, then finally horizontal on more-or-less the same heading.

I can't get the S.E.5a to do this. I've tried numerous degrees of upward pitch, and they all wind up the same: pull up, reach a range between nearly vertical and slightly past vertical, stall, flop over sideways, try to recover. The best attempt started from a steep dive, 150 mph, nearly tore the wings off, and wound up about 2/3 of the way to inverted before the plane stall-flopped.

And this is why I keep thinking something is not right here, because in Requiem's video on strafing, he takes an S.E.5a into a fairly shallow strafing dive, pulls up at the bottom, does 2/3 of a loop with no problem at all, then rolls over for another pass: half a Cuban 8.

At this point I don't care about combat, I'm just trying to figure out why I can't do simple maneuvers. As for the zoom-climbing, by the way, I can't get anywhere near the vertical. My airspeed seems to plummet as soon as I get a few degrees above horizontal. Supposedly this is one of the faster airplanes, and I've read that its combat tactics depend on using that speed to control the engagement, but on my computer it can't outrun an Albatros D.III, and spends most of its time at the edge of a stall.

Is there some hidden setting that limits the engine's performance, that might somehow have been set incorrectly in my game? This is getting to be rather frustrating. And I imagine it's not much less frustrating for you, trying to help, so once again, my sincere thanks. :)
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#16 JoeCrow

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  • Posts: 4145

Posted 21 September 2014 - 19:24

Is there some hidden setting that limits the engine's performance, that might somehow have been set incorrectly in my game? This is getting to be rather frustrating. And I imagine it's not much less frustrating for you, trying to help, so once again, my sincere thanks. :)

Ahhh…Yes, that could be it!

Mixture control? Incorrect mixture would indeed limit RPM.

To test this go into quick mission/settings and check 'automatic mixture'. If that improves the situation then it is the answer. Manually, a full-rich mixture is for starting only. Once it is running lean it out until you can get max revs on the dial. That will prove a good setting up to 7,000ft or so. Above that you can lean it out a little more but there is some leeway for error without affecting performance significantly. Try a few test-flights and note the affect of the mixture setting on RPM. You will soon get the hang of it. Flying around on 'automatic mixture' will give you a good idea of where the lever should be, and so will the sound of the engine.
While you are at it, make sure that 'warmed up engine' is also checked, otherwise you will be running cold from a standing start unless you wait for it to warm up.

Cheers.
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#17 20m

20m
  • Posts: 73

Posted 21 September 2014 - 20:09

Sadly, no, I never unchecked automatic mixture, automatic radiator, or warmed up engines. I was beginning to wonder whether those might cause problems, the way easy piloting does, but I guess not. I've also tried with and without simplified physics.

Also, I've just tried to loop a Sopwith Pup, thinking maybe an old RB3D favorite would treat me better, and had the same problem only about ten times worse. I got close to vertical and had an immediate stall into a spin, even though I was going nearly 150 mph before I pulled up. I couldn't recover from the spin, either, until I turned on the autopilot. But if I turn simplified physics back on, the Pup flies just fine. Loops, Cuban 8s, spin recovery, barrel rolls, etc. The S.E.5a, on the other hand, still won't get its nose up without stalling.
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#18 JoeCrow

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 21:06

I'm mystified.
Are you carrying a full fuel loadout with bombs by any chance?
Cheers.
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#19 FourSpeed

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  • Posts: 1755

Posted 21 September 2014 - 21:41

This isn't precisely about sources of flight training, but I thought it might be rude to start a new thread about my continuing quest for new and interesting ways to crash in ROF. :)

I'm trying to make sense of the S.E.5a, and so far, I can't. I get that it's not a turn fighter, I have no problem with that. But just trying to practice the maneuvers I'd need for an "energy fighter," as Requiem calls it in his videos, is turning out to be rather fatal. For instance, I cannot make the plane do a simple loop. I dive until I'm flying at 150 mph – a speed high enough that starting the loop without ripping my wings off is not guaranteed – and even so the plane will not loop. It just climbs, stalls, and sort of flops over.

Other times, I'll be flying at 100-120 mph, try to climb steeply in order to attempt some maneuver or other, and I barely get the nose up before it stalls and flops into a spin or near-spin. Requiem's strafing video suggests half a Cuban 8 after each strafing run, but that's out of the question. Trying to do the climb-and-roll maneuvers in his "boom and zoom" video just results in a stall.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume I'm doing something wrong. :) I'm hoping someone will have a clue as to what it is. What baffles me is that it doesn't seem to matter whether I try to maneuver sharply or gently. If the nose rises, the plane stalls.

I don't know what to tell you here.

Simply put there is either: Something seriously wrong with your airplane, or something wrong in your
flying technique.

Looping the SE5a is about as easy as it gets and it will reliably loop at any entry speed above 110 mph,
and above 120 mph, looping it is as smooth as silk.

The basic technique is simple - at an appropriate airspeed (say 120) which is easy to achieve in a
slight, gentle dive, you ease up on the forward stick pressure, and let the plane's nose start coming
up as it naturally wants to.

At that point, gently start easing the stick back, use a little rudder to keep your upline stratight,
and it'll go over the top as you keep pulling the stick back - typically, it's only 2/3 to 3/4 of full
back when that happens.

Again, use a little rudder to keep your downline straight, you hold the stick back where it was until
it comes back out to level flight.


I'm honestly not sure how you're having these troubles, because the SE5a is my favorite Entente plane
to use when instructing new pilots. It's very gentle, responsive and easy to fly.

I'd really like to see you pop into New Wings Basic Training some evening when I'm there to sort
through these issues you're having.


Regards,
4 :S!:



PS> I updated your other thread about the elevator - Mine is canted slightly up when it spawns
as well - just like your picture. The only thing I do is use the trim wheel to set some nose down
trim to reduce the forward stick pressure a little. It still won't fly level for me hands-off (which is
fine), but the forward stick forces feel similar to most other planes at that point, and it flies
just fine that way.
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#20 ChiefRedCloud

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 22:23

Please overlook some of the warping in the video …..



Chief
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#21 20m

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 01:52

I'm watching your video even as I type this, ChiefRedCloud, and that loop is precisely what I'm talking about. You didn't even have to dive first, you just pulled up steadily and went into a loop, and performed it the way these biplanes are supposed to. If I were to try that, I'd stall long before reaching the top of the loop. Any of those maneuvers, if I were to try them, I'd stall and probably crash. It really is like watching two completely different flight sims – one with a working flight model, one without.

FourSpeed – thanks, I will stop by. This Tuesday, most likely. I'd love to know why I'm having so much trouble with the easiest plane, too! Since you have the same issue with the elevators, it's probably a combination of the joystick and the pilot… mostly the pilot. :) Anyway, I'll stop posting my baffled "WHY CAN'T I FLY??" posts for now. Again, my thanks to all, I really appreciate the help, and the invitation to the flight training server.
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#22 ChiefRedCloud

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 13:57

Now a note here 20M. Speed is not using any curves on his SE5a and I am. Yet he was able to do everything I did and perhaps better. I'm going to revisit mine of course as I noticed I had a slight down nose tendency. This, is of course, a matter of choice. I use to be scared to death of touching this (curves). But now I do it on the fly. And save it. If I go to far, I reset and start over.

Chief

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#23 J2_Jakob

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 14:42

From what I read here, it looks like there can be a problem with the throttle, or some weird inability to get to 100% throttle setting. You wrote you're already familiar with mixture, so I leave that out.

Go to Responses, select throttle curve and check if you are really reaching 100% throttle output when you have your throttle slider set on 100%. I had once this problem, my throttle slider was "spiking" and I couldn't get more than say 85%.
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#24 20m

20m
  • Posts: 73

Posted 24 September 2014 - 14:55

I was able to stop by the fly-in last night on the New Wings server. Thank you very much, FourSpeed, for taking the time to give me some pointers and basic flight training! :S!:

I think the most important lesson was that I needed to be gentler with these aircraft. It seems counter-intuitive, but the problem with stalling was cured by easing back on the stick, even though that means the loop is larger and takes longer to complete. But, casting my mind back to my real flight training (which takes some effort, since it was about 25 years ago and health issues ended it before I got my license), it begins to make sense. It isn't about zooming through the loop quickly, it's about balancing the maneuver with the aircraft's thrust, lift, and weight. I may be able to squeak by with a max-elevator loop in a small, light, nimble Pup, but not in the heavier, less agile S.E.5a. I'm still working on getting these maneuvers to turn out the way I want them to, but now the problem is with keeping the plane pointing in the right direction, not with stalling out and making a hole in France. :)

So once more, my thanks!
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#25 FourSpeed

FourSpeed
  • Posts: 1755

Posted 24 September 2014 - 19:03

I was able to stop by the fly-in last night on the New Wings server. Thank you very much, FourSpeed, for taking the time to give me some pointers and basic flight training! :S!:

I think the most important lesson was that I needed to be gentler with these aircraft. It seems counter-intuitive, but the problem with stalling was cured by easing back on the stick, even though that means the loop is larger and takes longer to complete. But, casting my mind back to my real flight training (which takes some effort, since it was about 25 years ago and health issues ended it before I got my license), it begins to make sense. It isn't about zooming through the loop quickly, it's about balancing the maneuver with the aircraft's thrust, lift, and weight. I may be able to squeak by with a max-elevator loop in a small, light, nimble Pup, but not in the heavier, less agile S.E.5a. I'm still working on getting these maneuvers to turn out the way I want them to, but now the problem is with keeping the plane pointing in the right direction, not with stalling out and making a hole in France. :)

So once more, my thanks!
My Pleasure!

It was great to have you join us last night, and it was good to see you flying loops
like a champ afer a few short minutes - well done!


Happy Flying,
4 :S!:

PS> Feel free to stop back in at your convenience and we can work on some of the other
techniques we were chatting about. :)
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#26 ciki

ciki
  • Posts: 407

Posted 24 September 2014 - 22:08

Fourspeed is a great instructor. He taught me a lot about flying the RE8. Take a look at libarator's video:

https://www.youtube....uBEaToeo1Y#t=45
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#27 20m

20m
  • Posts: 73

Posted 25 September 2014 - 18:18

Impressive video! I never would have thought a two-seater could do all that.

Out of curiosity, what sort of response curves do you expert pilots use? I just got a Thrustmaster T-16000m joystick, and it is much, much, MUCH better than my somewhat worn-out Logitech. But I still have some issues with the fine controls. I tried the basic linear setup, and it was definitely easier to fly than with the Logitech joystick, but keeping the guns anything near steady is hard work. I was going to try an S-curve next, but thought I'd check in for some advice first. For one thing, an S-curve for pitch, after having the center corrected to -35% to bring the elevators level, just made for weird handling last time I tried. Yet linear means that any nudge sends me off target.

What do you folks use?

Also, I noticed something odd: my plane keeps trying to bank left. Since it's an inline engine, and the prop turns right, I would have thought that if anything there'd be a slight tendency to turn right. Any thoughts? Calibration error? Standard for every plane?
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#28 FourSpeed

FourSpeed
  • Posts: 1755

Posted 25 September 2014 - 20:27

Fourspeed is a great instructor. He taught me a lot about flying the RE8. Take a look at libarator's video:
<snip>
Thanks, but you might be flattering me a little too much - especially since it's my
RE8 that winds up all bent and crumpled on the ground at the end of that video :P


Impressive video! I never would have thought a two-seater could do all that.

Out of curiosity, what sort of response curves do you expert pilots use? I just got a Thrustmaster T-16000m joystick, and it is much, much, MUCH better than my somewhat worn-out Logitech. But I still have some issues with the fine controls. I tried the basic linear setup, and it was definitely easier to fly than with the Logitech joystick, but keeping the guns anything near steady is hard work. I was going to try an S-curve next, but thought I'd check in for some advice first. For one thing, an S-curve for pitch, after having the center corrected to -35% to bring the elevators level, just made for weird handling last time I tried. Yet linear means that any nudge sends me off target.

What do you folks use?

Also, I noticed something odd: my plane keeps trying to bank left. Since it's an inline engine, and the prop turns right, I would have thought that if anything there'd be a slight tendency to turn right. Any thoughts? Calibration error? Standard for every plane?
Thanks!
I know Liberator and I had a lot of fun flying those maneuvers, and I think he had even
more fun putting it together as a video :P

With regard to response curves, I can't help you there as mine are all unchanged defaults.

I'm sure several other folks can give you some insight on curves they use, but I actually
enjoy learning the little nuances and differences from each aircraft, rather than dialing
them out with a response curve. As previously stated, I'm also just using a Logitech 3D
Extreme Pro twist stick to fly my aircraft.

The only "tech" I find indispensible is my DiY homemade "trackIR" - an absolute must
for me, though other pilots (like Liberator, for instance) are fine without it.

Regarding the lean to the left, it could be calibration. I recalibrate my js every few
days, or whenever I "feel" that things aren't responding right.

Another real possibility is that while you're flying, you might be twisting the rudder
just a tad without even realizing it - maybe due to your arm position, stick location,
etc. I find I *still* do that once in awhile (though I tend to twist a little to the right
rather than left).

You can check that by looking to 6 o'clock an verifying that your rudder is completely
straight while in level flight. That'll help you spot that particular problem and it's also
good discipline to "Check 6" frequently when you start looking at combat ops.

Hope that helps.


Regards,
4 :S!:
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#29 Surfimp

Surfimp
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  • LocationSanta Barbara, CA, USA

Posted 25 September 2014 - 20:38

The only "tech" I find indispensible is my DiY homemade "trackIR" - an absolute must for me, though other pilots (like Liberator, for instance) are fine without it.

As long as certain someones with impeccable Hanriot crashlanding skills are willing to oblige his padlocking addiction :lol:
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#30 FourSpeed

FourSpeed
  • Posts: 1755

Posted 25 September 2014 - 20:42

The only "tech" I find indispensible is my DiY homemade "trackIR" - an absolute must for me, though other pilots (like Liberator, for instance) are fine without it.

As long as certain someones with impeccable Hanriot crashlanding skills are willing to oblige his padlocking addiction :lol:
rofl! Good Point.

Gratz on the GT btw…


Cheers,
4 :S!:
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#31 Surfimp

Surfimp
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  • LocationSanta Barbara, CA, USA

Posted 25 September 2014 - 20:49

The only "tech" I find indispensible is my DiY homemade "trackIR" - an absolute must for me, though other pilots (like Liberator, for instance) are fine without it.

As long as certain someones with impeccable Hanriot crashlanding skills are willing to oblige his padlocking addiction :lol:
rofl! Good Point.

Gratz on the GT btw…

Thanks FourSpeed! :S!:

With time it became clear we were all flying the same servers every day at the same times, and enjoyed talking to one another on Teamspeak. Plus, GT were the first squad I was aware of by name back when I started in RoF in '11, and I always really liked flying with and against them as a lonewolf.

So I was honored and pleased when invited, and very stoked to see how my handle looks with the new suffix!
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#32 20m

20m
  • Posts: 73

Posted 25 September 2014 - 23:47

With regard to response curves, I can't help you there as mine are all unchanged defaults.

I'm sure several other folks can give you some insight on curves they use, but I actually
enjoy learning the little nuances and differences from each aircraft, rather than dialing
them out with a response curve. As previously stated, I'm also just using a Logitech 3D
Extreme Pro twist stick to fly my aircraft.

The Logitech would have been a perfectly acceptable joystick if it hadn't been fairly well worn out. It has a distinct hitch any time I move it to the right, and at random times it will sort of jump, as if it didn't register movement, and then applied it all at once. Also there was a lot of play near the center point, and I would have needed about a 10% dead zone to eliminate it. It wasn't the brand or model of joystick that was the problem, it was the age and damage. :)

The only "tech" I find indispensible is my DiY homemade "trackIR" - an absolute must
for me, though other pilots (like Liberator, for instance) are fine without it.

Perhaps one of these days, if I either get plenty of excess cash (for the "official" version) or a sudden burst of probably misplaced confidence in my DIY skills. :)

Regarding the lean to the left, it could be calibration. I recalibrate my js every few
days, or whenever I "feel" that things aren't responding right.

Another real possibility is that while you're flying, you might be twisting the rudder
just a tad without even realizing it - maybe due to your arm position, stick location,
etc. I find I *still* do that once in awhile (though I tend to twist a little to the right
rather than left).

Righto… I can work on both of those things. Just didn't want to be chasing after something that turns out to be perfectly normal game operation. Again. :roll:

Thanks again!
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#33 20m

20m
  • Posts: 73

Posted 26 September 2014 - 01:22

Follow-up on the control issue: if I take my hands off the stick, with everything correctly registering 0% (I checked the response curves and where they were showing the current joystick position), everything freshly calibrated, the plane does this:

Image

Counteracting it requires constant 3% right stick, with a plain linear response curve. I also noticed that the plane tried to turn left when I gave it full throttle on the ground. I could have sworn these planes all tried to turn right all the time, which is the only reason I'm wasting time puzzling over this. :)
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#34 FourSpeed

FourSpeed
  • Posts: 1755

Posted 26 September 2014 - 20:19

Follow-up on the control issue: if I take my hands off the stick, with everything correctly registering 0% (I checked the response curves and where they were showing the current joystick position), everything freshly calibrated, the plane does this:
Counteracting it requires constant 3% right stick, with a plain linear response curve. I also noticed that the plane tried to turn left when I gave it full throttle on the ground. I could have sworn these planes all tried to turn right all the time, which is the only reason I'm wasting time puzzling over this. :)
Hmmmm, I can't recall if the SE5a prop spins left or right, but that effect looks like it could
just be P-factor and/or spiral propwash (ie. basically, small effects where the prop rotation
causes slightly asymetrical thrust and corresponding yaw). They're relatively small effects,
which are minimal at low AoA, and typically just countered with a little bit of rudder during
takeoffs and higher AoA climbs.

If that is the case, you'll likely just start correcting for them automatically with a little
more flight time (or a curve adjustment if you're so-inclined).


Regards,
4 :S!:
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#35 JoeCrow

JoeCrow
  • Posts: 4145

Posted 26 September 2014 - 22:49

Counteracting it requires constant 3% right stick, with a plain linear response curve. I also noticed that the plane tried to turn left when I gave it full throttle on the ground. I could have sworn these planes all tried to turn right all the time, which is the only reason I'm wasting time puzzling over this. :)

I've found that getting her rolling with some air-pressure moving over the control surfaces before giving full-throttle on take-off makes the effect much less noticeable. She will take off in quite a strong crosswind if you build up take-off speed slowly and correct with the rudder.

:S!:
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#36 20m

20m
  • Posts: 73

Posted 27 September 2014 - 00:09

Right, I'm definitely going to need a /headdesk smiley. :roll: I can only plead that it has been a very long time since I've given much thought to realistic flying, whether in a computer or the real world.

Says right there, a tendency to yaw left from a clockwise-turning prop. This is more of a bank than a yaw, but that article wasn't written for a WWI biplane.

I keep running into these oddities, and not knowing whether it's me, the joystick, the game, or what. Thanks for clearing it up for me! :)
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#37 Surfimp

Surfimp
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  • LocationSanta Barbara, CA, USA

Posted 27 September 2014 - 00:18

Most of the planes yaw to the left on takeoff and require right rudder to correct.

Except for the ones that yaw to the right… ;)

It's particularly fun with the SPADs: The VIIs yaw to the left, the XIII yaws to the right. Makes transitioning fun!

P.S. - The DIY skills needed for the headtracker that FourSpeed is describing aren't that involved, from what I understand of the process. Definitely, strongly recommend you check that out, headtracking can make all this a lot easier (IMHO).

P.P.S - Check the Useful Materials section - you'll find manuals for most of the planes, they're a good place to start for clues about how each should behave.
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#38 20m

20m
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Posted 27 September 2014 - 13:27

I may look into head-tracking, as the joystick hat control just isn't cutting it. But keeping completely still doesn't come easily for me. I have a devil of a time trying to keep the plane stable and trying to keep targets anywhere near my sights. Keeping my head perfectly still at the same time… not so sure that will work.
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#39 ChiefRedCloud

ChiefRedCloud
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  • LocationWaleska, Georgia, USA

Posted 27 September 2014 - 15:31

I may look into head-tracking, as the joystick hat control just isn't cutting it. But keeping completely still doesn't come easily for me. I have a devil of a time trying to keep the plane stable and trying to keep targets anywhere near my sights. Keeping my head perfectly still at the same time… not so sure that will work.

Trust me when I say with a light hand on the stick (which I still work on) and head tracking it will come naturally (to most). As for lining up on aircraft. Continue to either use your Quick mission Offline or our Basic Training server online to work with AI pilots. This will help you in the end. Just keep in mind, that ALL real pilots are know to be erratic and unpredictable unlike AI.

Chief
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#40 Surfimp

Surfimp
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  • LocationSanta Barbara, CA, USA

Posted 27 September 2014 - 15:37

I may look into head-tracking, as the joystick hat control just isn't cutting it. But keeping completely still doesn't come easily for me. I have a devil of a time trying to keep the plane stable and trying to keep targets anywhere near my sights. Keeping my head perfectly still at the same time… not so sure that will work.

Don't worry, with TrackIR software at least (and I assume the free equivalents), you can set the response curves so you get a "dead zone" around center. If you want, you can align you center position with the gunsight, or you can setup a view that's centered on the gunsight and activated by a button or key.

It's really not bad at all, and makes any flight sim so much better. For me, there's no way I would go back.
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