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How the hell do you fly a Sopwith Camel?


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#81 =HillBilly=

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:48

Gav what I'm saying is you fly the Alb and if the outcome is the same then I will concede.
But a superior pilot flying a superior plane proves NOTHING!
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#82 gavagai

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:51

Yes Hillbilly, that was the point of the duels. I was the inferior pilot flying the superior plane, and I dominated. I'm not crowing about my ability. It was all the superior performance afforded by the Camel.

I may be a better pilot than you, Hillbilly, but trust me when I say that there are others who outfly me very easily.
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#83 =HillBilly=

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:53

Hillbilly, you're flying against noobs. A competent Camel pilot will crush 99% of all Alby pilots.
Think what you will,as far as "noobs" go I try to help them, what do you do?

Non sequitur. Whether or not you help noobs has nothing to do with the Alby/Camel comparison.
Then why do you keep spouting " you'r flying against noobs"
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#84 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:55

Hillbilly, you're flying against noobs. A competent Camel pilot will crush 99% of all Alby pilots.
Think what you will,as far as "noobs" go I try to help them, what do you do?

Non sequitur. Whether or not you help noobs has nothing to do with the Alby/Camel comparison.
Then why do you keep spouting " you'r flying against noobs"

Because those are the only people who don't kick ass against Albs in the Camel.
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The toughest part of my job is dealing with incompetent clowns who think they're good at their job.

Free Plank!

 


#85 Demon_

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:59

Lucky I am! I found a video of the fight :mrgreen: Enjoy!
Image
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#86 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 14:02

Not sure if someone who kills himself when he's bounced and then rage quits is really in a position to be making fun of others.
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The toughest part of my job is dealing with incompetent clowns who think they're good at their job.

Free Plank!

 


#87 =HillBilly=

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 14:03

LOL Demon I'll give a 10/9 round for the blue.
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#88 Demon_

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 14:05

Hillbilly, you're flying against noobs. A competent Camel pilot will crush 99% of all Alby pilots.
Think what you will,as far as "noobs" go I try to help them, what do you do?

Non sequitur. Whether or not you help noobs has nothing to do with the Alby/Camel comparison.
Then why do you keep spouting " you'r flying against noobs"

Because those are the only people who don't kick ass against Albs in the Camel.

You talk about me? Me a noobs! Try me anytime.
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#89 Timmaaa2945z

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 14:09

Image
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#90 ST_ami7b5

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 14:15

Lucky I am! I found a video of the fight :mrgreen: Enjoy!
Image

Blue side is OP (bigger weapon)…
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#91 =HillBilly=

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 14:23

Lets agree to that we disagree, and back to OT.
The Camel's flight is influenced by three basic things.
#1 gyroscopic percession
#2 torque
#3 airspeed
Learn what the first two does,learn how to use them and the third is a piece cake.
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#92 FourSpeed

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 17:56

4speed what have I done to you to deserve so much attention form you?
Is it the NFF/NW thing? Do you want to drag that out in the open?

I think you better check with your superiors.
Regarding NW/NFF stuff, I was never involved in any of that or bothered by it -
you guys do your thing and we do ours - completely immaterial and irrelevant to
any other discussion.

The only issues I have with you are that you're often at the front of the line to
nitpick other people's posts, and *most* of the time when you do, the stuff you're
spouting is outright wrong. The rudder thread a few weeks back, and this one are
prime examples.

If you're purporting to help newbies, you might start by giving them *accurate*
information. <shrug>

4


PS> Sorry for the hijack - I said my piece on the Camel earlier on, and I'll leave
things at that.
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#93 =HillBilly=

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 18:02

I really do pity those that try to elevate themselves by stepping on the backs of others.
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#94 Chris9134

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 21:47

What have I started lol
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#95 Dressedwings

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 22:01

meh, don't think much into it. We as a community do this, especially when we get close to the release of a new bird.
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TOeIhAe.png

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#96 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 22:02

Two weeks…
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#97 Dressedwings

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 22:05

two weeks^777 :D :S!:
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#98 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 22:15

What have I started lol

Try your Camel with 10% fuel and work yourself up. A Camel loaded with more thatn 50% fuel becomes a different ride.

BTW Gav won the duels, yes but he flew the Camel like a BnZ plane, he did NOT outturn our planes which was a 'spadish' way to fly the Camel in that situation and it will not work against a Dr.1 or vs. or a DVIIF at 3000 m and he knows this. His victories came through altitude advantage, experiene and high skill level at the end. It is highly unlikely that Camels fought Albies or Pfalzes that way in reality but RoF allows it so …

BTW 2 In WWI conditions a lone Alby DVa or Pfalz D.IIIa would NEVER engage a Camel on equal terms, when you read some WWI books you will know that, it would mean suicide in fact because Camels were by far the superior fighters. On the other hand though, Alby DVa or a Pfalz D.IIIa could mostly escape the scrap/run away which is sadly not the case in RoF.
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#99 Demon_

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 22:23

Welcome in the train Chris. :mrgreen: The Camel is a good troll.
Image
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#100 Ghost_666

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 00:08

:x

I'm a "noob" only been on MP about 4or 5 times.

Was flying the D VIIF and with a single bust shot down GAV. (he was in a PUP)
Think about that a noob like me downing an ace of such renown as that.

Just goes to show you anything can and did happen.
Just had to brag :lol:
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Circling, Circling, in the sun.  Desperately trying to use my gun.  Up and down and around about.  Left and right I through my Scout.  When I had that Hun, on the run.  My little Newport she spun.  Down and down, with speed I went.  Into the ground, without wings I was sent.  In the mess the empty chair is set.  My flying time is spent.

 


#101 Philemmett

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 00:17

Gentlemen, gentlemen,
Demon has the right approach! I can't tell you how much his comment delighted me. That's the way to think about this "Game!"
If there's any indictment against HillBilly and his flying skills it should be for being far too fair and reasonable in the face of some unrealistic criticisms. If the score in 'kills' were ever totaled he would be on the top of everyone's list of competent pilots.
I'm wishing all you guys the best of fun and challenges when you fly "New Fliers and Friends." You can test your theories any time there against HillBilly. He never backs down.
Take care Gentlemen.
Philemmett, =NFF=Patriarch
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#102 Philemmett

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:22

Hey Demon!
There's only two gentlemen who are worth reading in this series of bantering. They are you and HillBilly. Both of you seem to have your feet firmly planted on the ground.
The other guys either don't have any idea what they're chatting about or couldn't care about facts.
Please carry on with the way you look at reality. I sincerely enjoy it.
Philemmett, (=NFF=Patriarch)
(PS - If you want to make a wager on who would win a dogfight, Alby VS Camel, I'll take HillBilly in either plane.)
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#103 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:24

Two weeks…


Oh you…

:lol:
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#104 SirFreddie

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:40

Flying her is like this:

Listen to the sound i.e. the blip switch !!!

It's a flying gyroscopic lawn mower

That first clip is beautiful in so many ways, well posted :S!:
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#105 gavagai

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:13

What have I started lol

Try your Camel with 10% fuel and work yourself up. A Camel loaded with more thatn 50% fuel becomes a different ride.

BTW Gav won the duels, yes but he flew the Camel like a BnZ plane, he did NOT outturn our planes which was a 'spadish' way to fly the Camel in that situation and it will not work against a Dr.1 or vs. or a DVIIF at 3000 m and he knows this. His victories came through altitude advantage, experiene and high skill level at the end. It is highly unlikely that Camels fought Albies or Pfalzes that way in reality but RoF allows it so …

We started every engagement co-altitude. Remember, you picked the terms of the duel, not me. If you were surprised to see that the Camel could dictate the engagement that way then it was a worthwhile exercise in my opinion.
:S!:
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#106 J2_Jakob

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 13:26

Hello Gentlemen,

Thread escalated quickly, so an off-topic post is tempting… On YT there are many videos of newbies flying Alby D.Va (of course, for it's a free plane), but those videos show nothing valuable. Merely a newbie trying to turn-fight, but mostly doesn't even look around, just waiting for something to accidentaly show up in his gunsights.

I'd love to see a PvP dogfight video with Alby flown by an excellent pilot.

Is it possible to set up something like this?
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#107 Gump

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 17:18

here are some descriptive videos ….
.
.



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#108 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 18:48

What have I started lol

Try your Camel with 10% fuel and work yourself up. A Camel loaded with more thatn 50% fuel becomes a different ride.

BTW Gav won the duels, yes but he flew the Camel like a BnZ plane, he did NOT outturn our planes which was a 'spadish' way to fly the Camel in that situation and it will not work against a Dr.1 or vs. or a DVIIF at 3000 m and he knows this. His victories came through altitude advantage, experiene and high skill level at the end. It is highly unlikely that Camels fought Albies or Pfalzes that way in reality but RoF allows it so …

We started every engagement co-altitude. Remember, you picked the terms of the duel, not me. If you were surprised to see that the Camel could dictate the engagement that way then it was a worthwhile exercise in my opinion.
:S!:

No, I was not surprised about the Camel being the better plane however I was surprised that you flew the 80% loaded Camel without a single mistake, spin or whatever which is NOT easy to accomplish and which proves you being a very good pilot and being well prepared for the duels. As I pointed out already, you used your almost perfect BnZ tactics (Spad being your favourite ride, remember ?) to finish the duels, gently fying your style without any risk. I would say that 80-90% of the guys here would spin the 80% loaded Camel at some point which would be enough to get some bullets in and to balance out the chances. This was my miscalculation in that case.
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#109 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 19:03

Keeping up energy is a must in any plane weather it be a Camel or a Spad.

Dogfighting happens in 3 dimensions not 2, people who think that energy fighting and turn fighting are at 2 ends of the spectrum won't become good pilots until they throw that notion out the window… Energy is life and if you don't get that then you'll always be a noob spinning a plane toward the ground no matter how well you can turn it :S!:
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#110 =HillBilly=

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 19:48

I still wonder what the out come of the duel would be if the pilots switched aircraft.
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#111 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 19:58

Energy is life and if you don't get that then you'll always be a noob spinning a plane toward the ground no matter how well you can turn it :S!:

I'm pretty sure that if you've mastered the "turning the thing really well" part you have probably mastered the energy part.
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#112 ciki

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 21:18

This is about rotary engines(Pup) at 4min he talks about the camel:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRT3w4CxZk

another one on rotary engine… from all I read the Camel was all about the engine to an extreme…

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvHrbkYEn0k
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#113 Gump

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 21:24

well, when you are learning to fly, or a new plane, there seems to be certain 'characteristics', some bad, that appear quickly or slowly, and may be easy or impossible to deal with. when learning to fly (the camel), the new pilot doesn't know that dreaded threshold where the camel kicks back and spins. it seems to happen at any speed. regardless of the theoretical reasons, a pilot has to learn how to "see" and "feel" where this threshold is, since fighting with the plane is gonna require (sooner or later) pushing towards that point. unfortunately, there is no instrument or alarm that tells the new pilot where/when this is. an experienced pilot has learned to see the signs and knows, from experience of pushing too far, when to adjust for avoidance.
also, the camel will snap into a spin rather quickly and isn't usually quick to return control to the pilot (varies). of course this is deadly close to the ground, where most of the dogfights are or end up. shoot, i dove in to bounce an enemy the other day on the deck, with plenty of speed/energy, and stalled/spun as soon as i was trying to turn out at the bottom - crashed and died… totally clums-o-matic! so, even though i had energy, i pulled too hard on the stick/elevator and the camel bucked me right off.
.
ALSO, the camel's engine is as sensitive as it's spin reflex. doesn't take much over-rev to blow it up and it will stop promptly. since it's a rotary, many of us (me included) moderate the speed with the blip switch (realistic) instead of the throttle. doesn't take to much of a mistake, even in a shallow dive, to splatter the oil all over the goggles and watch the prop stop. one can say "dont rev it past xxxx rmp's", but who watches the gauges when bouncing or diving? something that experience has to teach ya.
.
like any other plane, the camel is learned to fly by experience. however, the camel has some ornery traits, unlike many other planes, that will bite you if you push it wrong. people can tell you all day long what and where those are but, in a dogfight, you have to know where those are by feel - not by thinking, so experience is the key. practice, practice, practice.
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#114 ciki

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 22:07

Of course it is experience. But my point is - as is thomas sopwith's, in case you have watched his interview - you can't gain experience when you're dead. 400+ killed in combat to 380+ deaths by accident don't make it a good plane. Of course she was a good one for those who did survive. I don't know. I bet the F-104 Starfighter would have been a great fighter if flown by her test pilots. But she was a killer for those who flew her as was the camel. Don't get me wrong - I love the Camel. Being a superiour dogfighter doesn't mean a thing in case the faster planes just stayed out of reach. Even if you're a great pilot flying her you need a really stupid one enganging her one on one at even terms.

McCudden wrote of the S.E.5 "It was very fine to be in a machine that was faster than the Huns, and to know that one could run away just as things got too hot."
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#115 Gump

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 23:12

no argument here, ciki - my post was written before your post - just submitted later….
..
anyways, the camel was difficult to fly (much more difficult than the pup reportedly) and ROF has reporduced some of that feature, lucky for us ;>/
.
here is a snippet from wiki…
Unlike the preceding Pup and Triplane, the Camel was generally considered difficult to fly. The type owed its extreme manoeuvrability and its difficult handling to the close placement of the engine, pilot, guns and fuel tank (some 90% of the weight of the aircraft) within the front seven feet of the aircraft, coupled with the strong gyroscopic effect of the rotary engine. The Camel soon gained an unfortunate reputation with student pilots. The Clerget engine was particularly sensitive to fuel mixture control and incorrect settings often caused the engine to choke and cut out during take-off. Many crashed due to mishandling on take-off when a full fuel tank affected the centre of gravity. In level flight, the Camel was markedly tail-heavy. Unlike the Sopwith Triplane, the Camel lacked a variable incidence tailplane, so that the pilot had to apply constant forward pressure on the control stick to maintain a level attitude at low altitude. The aircraft could also be rigged so that at higher altitudes it was able to be flown "hands off." A stall immediately resulted in a particularly dangerous spin.
.
those reported traits and features would indicate a very large probability that most accidents were on, or shortly after, takeoff, when it's easiest to stall and/or ground loop. and the chances of a mishap would certainly multiply very quickly with windy conditions, given the camel's wing/fuse features. the above pup interview talks about flirting with peril on a windy landing.
.
i heard a modern camel pilot mention that the camel's ailerons were so big that the plane would want to actually turn the OTHER way when they were employed - the drag coefficient overcoming the lift coefficient. that's something i don't see in ROF (except for the GOTHA). IIRC, even though he was an accomplished pilot, he was afraid of the camel.
.
from my experience with RC planes, i know how a tailheavy CG will make things "maneuverable" but very unsteady for an unfamiliar pilot. add a large wing a short-coupled fuse and that is a certain recipe for a spin prone craft. that's not even considering the aileron drag and the gyroscopic procession of the camel the pilot had to learn to deal with when trying to activate the controls.
.
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#116 ciki

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 23:46

I had that tail heavy issue with a SE5 (no spin recovery) due to the x-box controller I use. It's deadly in a spin. Flying the Camel I had that feeling and it was to me more of an issue than the gyroscopic effect, though I didn't konw if it was FM or my crappy controls since I had to trim all my planes a bit nose down. I use the xbox controler for one reason. The rudder is simply great. Better than any twisting joystick. You have to live with a worse stick because it's short as hell but the stick is the least problematic control of them all. The thing is: I still don't get the throttle control on rotary engines. As I understood it is like this. You give full throttle or half - you control RPM using mixture and airspeed with the blip swith or am I wrong?
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#117 Demon_

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 23:56

Guys! Forget the Camel. You only need to get the spirit. :mrgreen:

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#118 ciki

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 00:07

Demon, I want to fly like him and drink less than he did to do it:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7sBJ7Qky8Y

:))))
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#119 Ben_Twings

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 03:23

I know how to get out of normal spins and stalls but this thing does something retarded, it will start to spiral downward spinning on the yaw axis but I no matter which direction I roll or pitch it or hit the rudder, it doesn't respond at all.
In this game the Camel's flight model in an unrealistic farce, so don't expect it to respond as it should. You must counter the engine's gyroscopic effect by applying left rudder when you pull the stick and right rudder when you push it. By the same token, yawing with the rudder should induce pitch changes, but they forgot to model that. Naturally you'd think that if the engine were stopped, the gyroscopic effect would stop. Sadly for this game you'd be wrong.

Spin recovery is covered in the manual but I'll reiterate. Left spin: Stick back and to the left plus full right rudder. Right spin: Stick forward and to the right plus full left rudder. Regrettably the developers are oblivious to the fact that spin recovery is progressive, so you will see no indication of a result until an arbitrary period elapses, at which point suddenly the spin stops. When that moment occurs, centre all the controls immediately and remember to apply left rudder when pulling up.

One day some developer may get it right…
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Polish-infested London


#120 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 19:57

One day some developer may get it right…

The devs and the Camel have 1 thing in common, you try and make them go right and you wind up in the mud :S!:
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