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How the hell do you fly a Sopwith Camel?


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#41 MacStoov

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 19:34

Nice hair-raising vid OP! :0o:

Impressed that you got the hang of it (almost;) that quickly! :S!:
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#42 ciki

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 20:49

One things comes to mind, I had a really bad problem with not being able to recover from spins flying the SE5…which is nosense since she was a very well designed plane. It was my controls and my resonse curves. It helps having shallow S-curves for rudder in all aircraft I've flown - better control hence more realistic - and if your joystick is not calibrated well you might need to trim her a bit nose down in response curves. If she's nose up because of calibration - not FM, it's impossible to recover from a spin. Even a SE5 which is nothing compared to a Camel.

:S!:
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#43 JoeCrow

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 22:36

Another tip for spin recovery is to cut (or blip) the engine. Remember that you are trying to get the nose down in order to recover from a spin and cutting the engine reduces both lift and angle-of-attack, making the aircraft nose-heavy.
Cheers.
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#44 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 22:48

No one likes seeing these great aircraft have a bad reputation in the game, but for now they are what they are.

Yeah, the Dr1 and Camel have such terrible reputations that they're only the 2 most popular aircraft in Wargrounds.

http://stats.newwing...ing.com/planes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://stats.newwing...ing.com/planes/
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#45 ciki

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 23:21

They are the most iconic planes of WWI, when I bought RoF I was sure I'd be flying a Camel or DR1 and ended up flying the SPAD VII & XIII in combat and the R.E.8 & SE5 for fun… I've seen exactly one DR1 at 2000m or more flying through clouds. He was good. I just don't understand all this talk about airplanes… a good pilot with superiour tactics and experince will most likely win no matter what airplane he's flying as long as he knows her well. And I really think that the best plane by all standards flown by a very good pilot is the Albatros DVa.
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#46 gavagai

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 00:38

ciki, you've been flying this sim for less than 6 months?

I can face off against pilots who I know are better than I am and still win if I have the better aircraft. In particular, against a very good pilot, I won 10 straight victories in the Camel against the Albatros D.Va and Pfalz D.IIIa. They can't maneuver away, and they can't run away. The latter is the biggest piece of historical bull poop to ever make its way into a combat flight simulator.

"It's the man and not the machine" is a bromide, most often spoken by the pilot in the better machine.
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#47 Demon_

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 00:50

The server's bouncer. :mrgreen:
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#48 ciki

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 00:57

How many times have you been killed in training? training to fly or training combat? That's the basic problem of sims… I bet you have more kills than any WWI ace. How many times did you die? It's fundamental. In RL you die only once.
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#49 ciki

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:04

BTW. I fly MP for about a week or two. Maybe one sortie a night. My only kill was a balloon. I was killed only twice. Once by Hillbilly and once by Graff… shot down a couple of times and landed. Wounded twice while flying an SE5. I'm not counting those capture the flag / countertrike servers with icons and nieuports at 300ft where nobody is landing and every other announcement on the server is xy has been killed only to respawn and get killed again.

The times I was killed I saw them (DVa & Dr1) at about 1500m about 50m or less on my six. They could have killed me flying bicycles armed with shotguns. It was not the planes it was the pilots. They saw me i didn't see them. It's tatctics. Good piloting.
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#50 Dressedwings

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 03:24

So, to not seem snarky, you let enemies sneak up on you so that negates anything wrong with the way an aircraft performs?

Trust me, the Luftstreitkrafte didn't replace their Albatross's because the Camels were good, it was because the Entente was able to field aircraft like the SPAD SXIII and the SE5a.

It definitely can be the man who flies it, not the machine he is in, but it most definitely is not the norm in this game.
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#51 JoeCrow

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 05:52

So, to not seem snarky, you let enemies sneak up on you so that negates anything wrong with the way an aircraft performs?

Trust me, the Luftstreitkrafte didn't replace their Albatross's because the Camels were good, it was because the Entente was able to field aircraft like the SPAD SXIII and the SE5a.

It definitely can be the man who flies it, not the machine he is in, but it most definitely is not the norm in this game.

Altitude! The race was purely for altitude and speed. The Albatros, Pfalz D3a and Camel became redundant at roughly the same time and for the same reason. The simple truth was that you cannot fight an enemy that you cannot reach. This is open world stuff not restricted by the artificial time and space confines of a server.
There is also confusion between disengagement and running away. Disengagement works, running away doesn't. It all depends on relative energy (potential speed). If you are at an energy deficiency then you are already dead in any plane if you try to do either, and that is purely down to the pilot's SA. Without an energy advantage you are trying to run away from a fight that is already lost because you cannot 'run away' from an energy disadvantage in any plane without expending even more energy, Se5a and SPAD included. If you have neither an altitude nor speed (energy) advantage you have left disengagement far too late and that is simple pilot error.
Altitude is everything because it is also airspeed and maneuvring potential…unless you are a flat-earthist.

Cheers.
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#52 ST-Zeno

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 07:40

So, to not seem snarky, you let enemies sneak up on you so that negates anything wrong with the way an aircraft performs?

Trust me, the Luftstreitkrafte didn't replace their Albatross's because the Camels were good, it was because the Entente was able to field aircraft like the SPAD SXIII and the SE5a.

It definitely can be the man who flies it, not the machine he is in, but it most definitely is not the norm in this game.

Altitude! The race was purely for altitude and speed. The Albatros, Pfalz D3a and Camel became redundant at roughly the same time and for the same reason. The simple truth was that you cannot fight an enemy that you cannot reach. This is open world stuff not restricted by the artificial time and space confines of a server.
There is also confusion between disengagement and running away. Disengagement works, running away doesn't. It all depends on relative energy (potential speed). If you are at an energy deficiency then you are already dead in any plane if you try to do either, and that is purely down to the pilot's SA. Without an energy advantage you are trying to run away from a fight that is already lost because you cannot 'run away' from an energy disadvantage in any plane without expending even more energy, Se5a and SPAD included. If you have neither an altitude nor speed (energy) advantage you have left disengagement far too late and that is simple pilot error.
Altitude is everything…unless you are a flat-earthist.

Cheers.

when do the trolls see u in the air again? :S!: :)
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#53 JoeCrow

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 07:48

when do the trolls see u in the air again? :S!: :)
Thank's for asking.
Soon I hope. I've had a long recovery from an eye operation…over a year now. I can only make L/H turns.
:lol:
Cheers.
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#54 MacStoov

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:01

My goodness. There are certainly a lot of axes to grind in here.

Suppose that's no surprise. This is the internet after all.

For folks like me that came from "mouse-aim hero" type of games, it seems a bit like crying with a loaf of bread under each arm :)

Just watched OPs video again.
It's actually better than good if you really just started this Camel inquiry a couple days ago.

It gets ruthless starting around 3:40. As soon as you got your wings chewed up from 3 o'clock, you got down to business.

Well done OP. You taught yourself something in spite of the ack-ack. :S!:
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#55 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:15

Altitude! The race was purely for altitude and speed. The Albatros, Pfalz D3a and Camel became redundant at roughly the same time and for the same reason. The simple truth was that you cannot fight an enemy that you cannot reach. This is open world stuff not restricted by the artificial time and space confines of a server.
There is also confusion between disengagement and running away. Disengagement works, running away doesn't. It all depends on relative energy (potential speed). If you are at an energy deficiency then you are already dead in any plane if you try to do either, and that is purely down to the pilot's SA. Without an energy advantage you are trying to run away from a fight that is already lost because you cannot 'run away' from an energy disadvantage in any plane without expending even more energy, Se5a and SPAD included. If you have neither an altitude nor speed (energy) advantage you have left disengagement far too late and that is simple pilot error.
Altitude is everything because it is also airspeed and maneuvring potential…unless you are a flat-earthist.

Cheers.

This^^

History does reflect some cases of designers responding directly to allegorical accounts of requirements to counter a certain type of new enemy aircraft but pushing the outside of the envelope higher and faster has always been the inherent goal of aviation.
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#56 Chris9134

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:35

My goodness. There are certainly a lot of axes to grind in here.

Suppose that's no surprise. This is the internet after all.

For folks like me that came from "mouse-aim hero" type of games, it seems a bit like crying with a loaf of bread under each arm :)

Just watched OPs video again.
It's actually better than good if you really just started this Camel inquiry a couple days ago.

It gets ruthless starting around 3:40. As soon as you got your wings chewed up from 3 o'clock, you got down to business.

Well done OP. You taught yourself something in spite of the ack-ack. :S!:

Thanks, I actually just got a joystick with sideways rudder control (the twisting action) before the video and it makes a world of difference. It was also my first ROF video so I stayed up a few hours doing some video editing to make sure it was a "polished" production, heheh.
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#57 gavagai

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 13:00

How many times have you been killed in training? training to fly or training combat? That's the basic problem of sims… I bet you have more kills than any WWI ace. How many times did you die? It's fundamental. In RL you die only once.

Are you now trying to argue that "it's the man and not the machine" is not true in virtual air combat because the same pilot can be shot down multiple times? You forget about real pilots who were shot down multiple times and lived to fly again. In fact, many were. Be more logical, please.
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#58 ciki

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 20:15

I said killed not shot down. My point was that better tactics and like JoeCrow said altitude and energy - how you set up a fight is way more important than the type of aircraft you're in.
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#59 gavagai

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 21:18

Put me in a Camel versus any Albatros with the best pilot in Rise of Flight, and give him an altitude advantage, it won't matter. The result is the same: he can't out-maneuver, he can't even dive or run away. He will be dead, dead, dead.
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#60 ciki

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 21:41

You might be right in case you can see him coming… If he's a good pilot you won't even know he's there. Try fighting Hillbilly's DVa. I don't know how good you or him are… but I think he's smart and he flies an Albatros :)
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#61 =HillBilly=

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 22:07

Put me in a Camel versus any Albatros with the best pilot in Rise of Flight, and give him an altitude advantage, it won't matter. The result is the same: he can't out-maneuver, he can't even dive or run away. He will be dead, dead, dead.
Wow Gav that is one hell of a gauntlet you just threw down. :D
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#62 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 22:11

You might be right in case you can see him coming… If he's a good pilot you won't even know he's there. Try fighting Hillbilly's DVa. I don't know how good you or him are… but I think he's smart and he flies an Albatros :)

gavagai can probably shoot down Hillbilly no matter which aircraft either of them is flying. gavagai is very good at this game. Hillbilly mostly fights against noobs.
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#63 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 22:12

Put me in a Camel versus any Albatros with the best pilot in Rise of Flight, and give him an altitude advantage, it won't matter. The result is the same: he can't out-maneuver, he can't even dive or run away. He will be dead, dead, dead.
Wow Gav that is one hell of a gauntlet you just threw down. :D

No, it isn't. A good Camel driver will beat the best Alby driver almost every time.
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#64 =HillBilly=

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 22:17

BSR would you move you car, it's in a NO PARKING ZONE.

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#65 ciki

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 22:19

I'd love watching those fights… I already suggested to gavagai an RE8 vs RE8 fight. Since nobody is really flying on servers right now, duels like these would be fun watching.
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#66 gavagai

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 22:20

Put me in a Camel versus any Albatros with the best pilot in Rise of Flight, and give him an altitude advantage, it won't matter. The result is the same: he can't out-maneuver, he can't even dive or run away. He will be dead, dead, dead.
Wow Gav that is one hell of a gauntlet you just threw down. :D

No, it's not really. You don't have to take risks or be creative to win that fight. Just fly it straight forward and you can't lose.
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#67 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 22:20

Go ahead and fight him, Hillbilly. You take the Alby, Gav gets the Camel. I'll be surprised if you hit him with a single bullet.
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The toughest part of my job is dealing with incompetent clowns who think they're good at their job.

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#68 Gump

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 00:02

Here is the most widely accepted technique to flying the Camel:

You must first lower your IQ to the specified levels in the operating handbook. Spawn on the runway, then ask how to start the engine…Take off, then crash until you reach that magic speed at which your plane seems to very unwillingly fight it's way into the air. Climb to a maximum of 500' MSL. Once you have located a target proceed into a head-on collision course with it, when collision happens, don't worry it's always the opposing pilot's fault. If the target is flying above your altitude raise your pitch attitude till your aircraft is pointed at your opponent, spray a myriad of bullets in his general direction and hope a couple of them hit something. Repeat this process until dead. When you get into a turnfight, if you get your opponent on your nose attempt to fire the guns only to have them "click!" ask why your guns won't fire. Once you have used your massive brainpower to figure out how to cock the guns, proceed to show your 133t dogfighting skills by corkscrewing around till somebody dies or that bastard quadruple ace known only as "The Ground" comes up out of nowhere and kills you. The best way to get kills in a Camel is to attack aircraft taking off or landing, the less maneuverable the better! Gang banging less maneuverable planes is also a good tactic, try and shoot through your teammates to hit the selected target, they will be happy they died for a good cause. Ramming teammates will also be beneficial… to the enemy, so do it as many times as possible.

I hope these instructions have helped you learn to operate the Camel up to your expectations.

Liberator's Advice on Flying the Camel:

Step 1: Don't

Step 2: fly a real plane

Step 3: Get good at flying a real plane

Step 4: become Awesome pilot


funny very funny stuff.
.
but lets get serious…
.
to fly the camel, you must be prepared to die. and die. and die. and die. and die. and die (x349). along with that, you must have experience with a contentious wife. then, take a long journey on a REAL camel - with 3 legs, and try turning it fast every now and then. then, if your adrenal glands aren't drained yet, work on that -cuz you just cant get excited and pull that stick back too hard - even when that DR1 is pulling in. now, take your car out and practice parallel parking…back and forth, back and forth. this will help u with SA as you watch the horizon go back and forth and your plane lands like an autumn leaf. next, learn the "finish flight" "fly again" sequence like you would learn your own name.
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#69 ciki

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 00:23

this will help u with SA as you watch the horizon go back and forth and your plane lands like an autumn leaf. next, learn the "finish flight" "fly again" sequence like you would learn your own name

Samsara is the continual repetitive cycle of birth and death that arises from ordinary beings' grasping and fixating on a self and experiences. Specifically, samsara refers to the process of cycling through one rebirth after another within the six realms of existence.
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#70 Gump

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 00:32

flying a camel is the continual repetitive cycle of spawn and death that arises from ordinary beings' grasping and fixating on a hope of dogfighting. Specifically, camel piloting refers to the process of cycling through one spawn after another within the sixTY-FIVE realms of absolute frustration.

fixed.
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#71 Surfimp

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 02:26

How to fly a Camel :lol:

1) Turn right, don't spin
2) Shoot when target appears in gunsight
3) ????
————–
4) PROFIT!!!
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Founding Member, SPADaholics Anonymous


#72 FourSpeed

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 03:56

Go ahead and fight him, Hillbilly. You take the Alby, Gav gets the Camel. I'll be surprised if you hit him with a single bullet.
While I'm not sure of the planes involved, I believe Gav has already handed HillBilly his @$$ on at least
one occasion (back in March(result)), so you'd think that HB would learn the axiom "It's far better to remain
silent and let everyone think you're an idiot rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt", but,
evidently the memo hasn't arrived at his "still" yet. At least, that's the trend I see in his posts.


4
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#73 =HillBilly=

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:58

4speed what have I done to you to deserve so much attention form you?
Is it the NFF/NW thing? Do you want to drag that out in the open?

I think you better check with your superiors.

Put me in a Camel versus any Albatros with the best pilot in Rise of Flight, and give him an altitude advantage, it won't matter. The result is the same: he can't out-maneuver, he can't even dive or run away. He will be dead, dead, dead.

This will prove NOTHING, Gav is one of the best pilots in ROF.
Now if he said put me in a Albatros and Joe Smoe in the Camel and the Camel wins, that might prove his point.
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#74 Demon_

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:08

Come on guys! Relax. :o
Image
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#75 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:19

Hillbilly, he already took a 100% fuel Camel and beat Sahaj in an Alby. That should tell you all you need to know about how those 2 aircraft match up. The only hope for the Alby is that the guy flying the Camel is a noob.
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#76 =HillBilly=

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:27

BSR I think you missed my point,The Camel is NOT a automatic kill,ask some of the Camel jocks, at times they have to work hard to kill the Alby,and at times it takes 2-3 of them to do it.
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#77 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:30

Hillbilly, you're flying against noobs. A competent Camel pilot will crush 99% of all Alby pilots.
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#78 gavagai

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:35

The duel was 80% fuel in the Camel and Albatros D.Va. And yes, I did win every engagement against Sahaj when he flew the Albatros D.Va and Pfalz D.IIIa.

Later I fought Peter Zvan (an even better pilot than Sahaj), and I had similar results. IIRC he got me once with the D.VIIF, but in 6 or 7 other engagements I won with the 80% fuel Camel against Peter's D.VIIF.

————

Hillybilly, don't conflate an automatic kill with killing quickly. The Camel wins automatically because it easily gains an energy advantage and can BnZ the snot out of the D.Va, which renders the D.Va's roll rate advantage moot. The automatic-win tactic is to continually drive the D.Va lower and lower until he has no more option to roll away nose-low. It takes a while but it is algorithmic, i.e. you follow that procedure and you cannot lose.
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#79 =HillBilly=

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:38

Hillbilly, you're flying against noobs. A competent Camel pilot will crush 99% of all Alby pilots.
Think what you will,as far as "noobs" go I try to help them, what do you do?
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#80 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 13:41

Hillbilly, you're flying against noobs. A competent Camel pilot will crush 99% of all Alby pilots.
Think what you will,as far as "noobs" go I try to help them, what do you do?

Non sequitur. Whether or not you help noobs has nothing to do with the Alby/Camel comparison.
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