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How the hell do you fly a Sopwith Camel?


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#1 Chris9134

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 21:26

I've tried and tried and tried and tried and this damn plane is a nightmare SPIN MACHINE! How on earth is this plane supposed to be flown? 80% of the time when I'm trying to duel another plane in this deathtrap it goes into this crazy spin that I cannot escape…I know how to get out of normal spins and stalls but this thing does something retarded, it will start to spiral downward spinning on the yaw axis but I no matter which direction I roll or pitch it or hit the rudder, it doesn't respond at all.

How the hell do you fly a Camel?
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#2 HotleadColdfeet

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 21:46

This link has some good info:
http://newfliersandf...nfo-corner.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://newfliersandf...nfo-corner.html

Now as to what I've learned about flying the Camel…

1) Fly with 10% or so fuel unless you have to travel a long way to the skirmish. The camel performs much better with less fuel.

2) Never use the rudder wildly. That makes spins happen. Avoid "flipping" the plane with the rudder.

3) Buying the $2 or so above wing cutout helps your visibility a lot. Good for offense.

4) When fighting a Dr 1 (nearly the only plane that can turn with you) get them into a left turn if they bug you. Camels take lefts better than Dr 1s usually. Go into Quick Mission and see for yourself. :twisted:

5) Attack from above if possible. Diving gives you speed, and when you have it, you are less likely to stall out. And your enemy doesn't have this advantage if you attack from above. Watch your RPMs when diving however and reduce throttle so as to not over rev the engine.

6) Try not to switch directions suddenly until you are more experienced. Stalls happen that way too.

7) Avoid taking the fight into the vertical. Don't put your nose in the air and stall. Your plane is a supreme turn fighter. Use it as such. ;)

Above all else…practice practice practice! There seriously is no better way to get a feel for your plane.
Hope this helps. :S!:
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#3 MacStoov

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 21:54

Basically you fly the Camel (and all other radials that I've tied so far) with judicious use of rudder in a steep turn. What that means is if you're in a tight turning dogfight and you're pulling hard to get on each others six, you need to pay attention to what your nose is doing and kick bottom rudder when the nose tries to creep above the horizon. This is more evident in a right hand turn, but it applies to a left hand turn as well. You must think in terms of ESTABLISHING a turn, and then flying the crate within that turn. If this didn't make sense, I'm happy to try to clarify further.

-Mac
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#4 Demon_

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 22:03

How the hell do you fly a Camel? With the rudder. And modulated the pitch (pull) when you turn left or right to regain speed.

Spin recovery? In the manual page 138.
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#5 Dressedwings

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 22:08

Step 1: Start the Engine

Step 2: leave the plane and take a Spad or SE5..

Step 3: ?????

Step 4: profit.
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#6 HotleadColdfeet

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 22:09

What the other fellas said regarding the rudder is right. Allow me to clarify what I was saying earlier: While it is good to use the rudder to get into your initial turn and to maintain it, you don't want to start wildly flipping it to the right and to the left once you are in your "groove". That's just all bad. :xx: Use the rudder wisely: don't ignore it, but don't use it out of it's parameters. Like I said, practice will give you the experience you need. ;)
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#7 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 22:20

Here is the most widely accepted technique to flying the Camel:

You must first lower your IQ to the specified levels in the operating handbook. Spawn on the runway, then ask how to start the engine…Take off, then crash until you reach that magic speed at which your plane seems to very unwillingly fight it's way into the air. Climb to a maximum of 500' MSL. Once you have located a target proceed into a head-on collision course with it, when collision happens, don't worry it's always the opposing pilot's fault. If the target is flying above your altitude raise your pitch attitude till your aircraft is pointed at your opponent, spray a myriad of bullets in his general direction and hope a couple of them hit something. Repeat this process until dead. When you get into a turnfight, if you get your opponent on your nose attempt to fire the guns only to have them "click!" ask why your guns won't fire. Once you have used your massive brainpower to figure out how to cock the guns, proceed to show your 133t dogfighting skills by corkscrewing around till somebody dies or that bastard quadruple ace known only as "The Ground" comes up out of nowhere and kills you. The best way to get kills in a Camel is to attack aircraft taking off or landing, the less maneuverable the better! Gang banging less maneuverable planes is also a good tactic, try and shoot through your teammates to hit the selected target, they will be happy they died for a good cause. Ramming teammates will also be beneficial… to the enemy, so do it as many times as possible.

I hope these instructions have helped you learn to operate the Camel up to your expectations.

Liberator's Advice on Flying the Camel:

Step 1: Don't

Step 2: fly a real plane

Step 3: Get good at flying a real plane

Step 4: become Awesome pilot
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#8 Demon_

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 22:23

What the other fellas said regarding the rudder is right. Allow me to clarify what I was saying earlier: While it is good to use the rudder to get into your initial turn and to maintain it, you don't want to start wildly flipping it to the right and to the left once you are in your "groove". That's just all bad. :xx: Use the rudder wisely: don't ignore it, but don't use it out of it's parameters. Like I said, practice will give you the experience you need. ;)

Yep! Use the rudder with precision. AND DON'T PULL TOO HARD ON THE STICK.
Hope this will help, good luck.
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#9 ciki

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 22:27

The camel was designed for VERY experienced GOOD pilots. That's quote from Thomas Sopwith paraphrasing Hawker who was the test pilot for her. I can fly her but I wouldn't fight flying her, yet. She's evil, both ways. Love this plane, though I don't fly her. Some day… I will.
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#10 Chris9134

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 22:33

Okay, well I think I've been overusing the rudder during my turning. It's just this is the first plane I've gone into a spin with that I could not recover from no matter what I did…multiple times.

I'm a pilot in real life, I can fly general aviation although I don't have many hours under my belt. I love this game, but I'm still a bit new at it, and I was recommended to fly the Pfalz D.IIIa starting out and I got pretty decent at taking out the AI with it. I saw some Youtube vids of people dogfighting with the Camel, so I decided to practice with it for awhile and did so awful I actually got mad, lol. Reckon I need more experience.
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#11 =HillBilly=

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 22:34

Here is the most widely accepted technique to flying the Camel:

You must first lower your IQ to the specified levels in the operating handbook. Spawn on the runway, then ask how to start the engine…Take off, then crash until you reach that magic speed at which your plane seems to very unwillingly fight it's way into the air. Climb to a maximum of 500' MSL. Once you have located a target proceed into a head-on collision course with it, when collision happens, don't worry it's always the opposing pilot's fault. If the target is flying above your altitude raise your pitch attitude till your aircraft is pointed at your opponent, spray a myriad of bullets in his general direction and hope a couple of them hit something. Repeat this process until dead. When you get into a turnfight, if you get your opponent on your nose attempt to fire the guns only to have them "click!" ask why your guns won't fire. Once you have used your massive brainpower to figure out how to cock the guns, proceed to show your 133t dogfighting skills by corkscrewing around till somebody dies or that bastard quadruple ace known only as "The Ground" comes up out of nowhere and kills you. The best way to get kills in a Camel is to attack aircraft taking off or landing, the less maneuverable the better! Gang banging less maneuverable planes is also a good tactic, try and shoot through your teammates to hit the selected target, they will be happy they died for a good cause. Ramming teammates will also be beneficial… to the enemy, so do it as many times as possible.

I hope these instructions have helped you learn to operate the Camel up to your expectations.

Liberator's Advice on Flying the Camel:

Step 1: Don't

Step 2: fly a real plane

Step 3: Get good at flying a real plane

Step 4: become Awesome pilot
That is awfully cynical of you.
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#12 ciki

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 22:37

During World War I, 413 pilots died in combat and 385 pilots died from non-combat related causes while flying the Sopwith Camel.

It's not cynical if he's new to RoF. I flew GA planes myself and i can't roll the R.E.8 right…
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#13 O_Rod

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 22:45

It's not an easy craft to fly but persevere with it and you will love it and wonder why you flew anything else. Definitely learn spin recovery, take it up high and spin her then recover.
Once you have that sorted you will be fine, for real problems with spin see the Dolphin..lol
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#14 JoeCrow

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 22:48

The Camel doesn't respond very well to the usual co-ordinated turn by using stick and rudder unless you are very practiced with it, and this takes time. There is an alternative to the co-ordinated turn which works well with the Camel, and that is by rolling into the required bank angle before using back-pressure on the stick and, at the same time, using rudder to keep the nose down. The amount of back pressure exerted on the stick will decide whether you spin or not and that will soon become second nature with practice. Briefly blipping the engine into a turn will also help to reduce the risk.
The need for spin recovery will hopefully become a rarity, but working on that particular problem is a seperate issue.
Good luck.
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#15 FourSpeed

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 23:01

I've tried and tried and tried and tried and this damn plane is a nightmare SPIN MACHINE! How on earth is this plane supposed to be flown? 80% of the time when I'm trying to duel another plane in this deathtrap it goes into this crazy spin that I cannot escape…I know how to get out of normal spins and stalls but this thing does something retarded, it will start to spiral downward spinning on the yaw axis but I no matter which direction I roll or pitch it or hit the rudder, it doesn't respond at all.

How the hell do you fly a Camel?

@Liberator: rofl! That's cold … but funny… :)

Don't mind Liberator, Chris… His underlying point is that a lot of new pilots
hop into a DR1 or Camel trusting in the plane to see them through rather than
developing good piloting skills. Unfortunately, there is some truth to that.

As for the Camel, JimTM's advice (on the NFF site) is good.

Additionally, with *ALL* rotary engined planes you're going to need to develop
very good rudder skills (something that even GA pilots typically struggle with as
well - typically, because modern GA planes are much more stable and benign).

The points the other folks in here are making all highlight that - rudder is *extremely*
important in flying and controlling these planes - particularly the rotaries.

Another recommendation is to set the Camel aside for awhile - she's a harsh mistress
to rookie pilots.

Put some flight time into Pups, Tripehounds and N17's. All of these are also rotaries,
but their characteristics are much more forgiving and gentle than the Camels.

That said, they will *still* bite your backside if you mistreat them, but in general,
they're more forgiving, and they make good transitional stepping stones to the
Camel.

Finally, as other folks have noticed, there is simply no substitute for practice,
practice, practice. You always have to stay within an aircraft's flight envelope,
and only time in type will give you a true feel for where the boundaries of it's flight
envelope are.

Unlike the actual WWI pilots, we have the luxury of as much training and flight time
as we can handle before being tossed to the wolves on the other side of the mud.

Take advantage of that as often as you can.


Regards,
4 :S!:
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#16 HotleadColdfeet

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 23:02

Here is the most widely accepted technique to flying the Camel:

You must first lower your IQ to the specified levels in the operating handbook. Spawn on the runway, then ask how to start the engine…Take off, then crash until you reach that magic speed at which your plane seems to very unwillingly fight it's way into the air. Climb to a maximum of 500' MSL. Once you have located a target proceed into a head-on collision course with it, when collision happens, don't worry it's always the opposing pilot's fault. If the target is flying above your altitude raise your pitch attitude till your aircraft is pointed at your opponent, spray a myriad of bullets in his general direction and hope a couple of them hit something. Repeat this process until dead. When you get into a turnfight, if you get your opponent on your nose attempt to fire the guns only to have them "click!" ask why your guns won't fire. Once you have used your massive brainpower to figure out how to cock the guns, proceed to show your 133t dogfighting skills by corkscrewing around till somebody dies or that bastard quadruple ace known only as "The Ground" comes up out of nowhere and kills you. The best way to get kills in a Camel is to attack aircraft taking off or landing, the less maneuverable the better! Gang banging less maneuverable planes is also a good tactic, try and shoot through your teammates to hit the selected target, they will be happy they died for a good cause. Ramming teammates will also be beneficial… to the enemy, so do it as many times as possible.

I hope these instructions have helped you learn to operate the Camel up to your expectations.

Liberator's Advice on Flying the Camel:

Step 1: Don't

Step 2: fly a real plane

Step 3: Get good at flying a real plane

Step 4: become Awesome pilot

Lol Lib. Can always count on you to hit on the Camel/Dr 1. :lol: But do take him seriously when he says you can be a great pilot in other rides. He flys a mean N.11 online. :x

Even so, I believe the camel is so tough to master that when you finally do, you deserve to be Awesome in it. :mrgreen:
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#17 ciki

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 23:11

right spin is normal. left spin you'll have to work the stick. use blip switch to cut the engine. it't faster than using throttle
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#18 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 23:15

People consider "mastery" of the Camel just learning to hold it steady enough to take a tight turn. To rely only on an aircraft's performance to beat your opponent does not make a good pilot, because as soon as you place that pilot into an even slightly lesser plane they have no idea what the hell they're doing. Yes the Camel can be a good dogfighter online (with all it's OP'ness :D ) but it's not good to get used to only flying the most maneuverable aircraft because then you won't learn the proper techniques to winning a dogfight.

If you want to be the average run-of-the-mill noob that quits a map every time early war comes on then be my guest, whatever makes you happy. If you want to learn how to fly a plane and get good at it you know where to find me :S!:
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#19 ciki

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 23:26

as a GA pilot just think of the camel and dr1 as acrobatc planes. They behave diffently.

And listen to FourSpeed and Liberator :)

Watch their RE8 aerobatics video ;)
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#20 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 23:30

You don't so much fly the Camels as ride along with it, holding on for dear life whilst offering very polite suggestions to the controls as to where you would like to go.

Never fly with more than 75% fuel.
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#21 =HillBilly=

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 23:31

To rely only on an aircraft's performance to beat your opponent does not make a good pilot,
Isn't that true with many aircraft in ROF,not only the Camel but also the N11, Sopwith Tripe, Sopwith Pup, DR1
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#22 Dressedwings

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 23:38

I dont think the Nieuport 11 and Sopwith Triplane belong in the same uber noob class as the Pup and DR1.
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#23 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 23:40

If you want to learn how to fly a plane and get good at it you know where to find me :S!:


Actually, I think he just wants to fly against the AI right now.
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The toughest part of my job is dealing with incompetent clowns who think they're good at their job.

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#24 MacStoov

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  • Posts: 6

Posted 19 July 2014 - 00:13

As a GA pilot, it might help to think of these radial engine combat turns as "Steeper-than-Steep-turns."
Whereas the classic GA steep turn is 45-60 degrees, these combat turns are more like 60-85 degrees.
Now, when you're banked that hard an interesting thing happens. Your rudder acts as your elevator. So just as you use gentle elevator (stick subtly forward) in level flight to correct for the natural climb that most of these planes come with, so you use rudder as elevator when you find yourself with wings almost straight up and down.

As far as pedal (or twist) inputs, it's a feel thing and a bit of a subtle tap dance. Sorta similar to steering the nose wheel on takeoff in a tricycle gear GA aircraft. Just a whisper of correction one way or the other. If you stomped full rudder (in a steerable nose wheel configuration) just as you approached Vr speed, you'd have a bad day;)

-Mac
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#25 ciki

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 00:38

Flying her is like this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6PnKUEFX8g

www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3DXEsC4Pq8

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnYxK83C6A4

Listen to the sound i.e. the blip switch !!!

It's a flying gyroscopic lawn mower
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#26 LukeFF

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 01:25

Here is the most widely accepted technique to flying the Camel:

You must first lower your IQ to the specified levels in the operating handbook. Spawn on the runway, then ask how to start the engine…Take off, then crash until you reach that magic speed at which your plane seems to very unwillingly fight it's way into the air. Climb to a maximum of 500' MSL. Once you have located a target proceed into a head-on collision course with it, when collision happens, don't worry it's always the opposing pilot's fault. If the target is flying above your altitude raise your pitch attitude till your aircraft is pointed at your opponent, spray a myriad of bullets in his general direction and hope a couple of them hit something. Repeat this process until dead. When you get into a turnfight, if you get your opponent on your nose attempt to fire the guns only to have them "click!" ask why your guns won't fire. Once you have used your massive brainpower to figure out how to cock the guns, proceed to show your 133t dogfighting skills by corkscrewing around till somebody dies or that bastard quadruple ace known only as "The Ground" comes up out of nowhere and kills you. The best way to get kills in a Camel is to attack aircraft taking off or landing, the less maneuverable the better! Gang banging less maneuverable planes is also a good tactic, try and shoot through your teammates to hit the selected target, they will be happy they died for a good cause. Ramming teammates will also be beneficial… to the enemy, so do it as many times as possible.

I hope these instructions have helped you learn to operate the Camel up to your expectations.

Liberator's Advice on Flying the Camel:

Step 1: Don't

Step 2: fly a real plane

Step 3: Get good at flying a real plane

Step 4: become Awesome pilot

Adding posts like this only lowers the tone.
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#27 A.Challenge

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 03:58

Adding posts like this only lowers the tone.

Perhaps it does lower the tone a bit, but it's also funny, and has a bit of truth to it. Maybe not in a universal mindset, but the idea of those two planes is in the folklore of the era.

On one side is the argument that the Camel and Dr1 are not easy planes to master and anyone who manages to tame them enough to run up a decent K/D ratio doesn't really qualify as a noob any more. But, as Liberator mentions, some never pick up serious skills with other planes. This limits the scope and frankly, I think they miss out on so much that's available. One trick ponies are entertaining once or twice, but then you go to a real show.

Restraint is the word I would use to describe my thoughts about flying these planes. Slight input to flight control surfaces is all it takes to move them around the sky. Increase stick and rudder control slowly at first and work out the feel for the break points that cost you control. It is, as mentioned, all about the practice.
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#28 O_Rod

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 09:36

You don't so much fly the Camels as ride along with it, holding on for dear life whilst offering very polite suggestions to the controls as to where you would like to go.

Never fly with more than 75% fuel.

I like this explanation, why does it sound like a marriage :lol:
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#29 Chris9134

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  • Posts: 21

Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:48

Okay yall, I practiced for awhile and then dueled an AI Sopwith Camel in my own Camel, and uploaded it to Youtube. I'm sure my handling of the plane is pretty amateur, but I did manage to take down the AI after a few fumbles.


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#30 ChiefRedCloud

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 13:34

The only thing I can contribute to all the good tips an opinions here is altitude and a gentle hand. Altitude gives you a chance to recover and take advantage of your opponent. And a gentle hand because these steeds do NOT like to be manhandled. They will fight you more than your opponent will.

Chief
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#31 gavagai

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 13:55

I dont think the Nieuport 11 and Sopwith Triplane belong in the same uber noob class as the Pup and DR1.

+1

Camel, Dr.I, and Pup = gotta win

Sopwith Tripe, N11, and N17 are respectable rides

———–

And yeah, I apologize in advance that this is how it has worked in Rise of Flight because of some scouts with obviously wrong airspeeds (I use obviously wrong as a technical term). No one likes seeing these great aircraft have a bad reputation in the game, but for now they are what they are.
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#32 =HillBilly=

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 14:18

To rely only on an aircraft's performance to beat your opponent does not make a good pilot,
Isn't that true with many aircraft in ROF,not only the Camel but also the N11, Sopwith Tripe, Sopwith Pup, DR1
Sopwith Tripe, N11, and N17 are respectable rides
If you read my post you will see that "performance" is the key word. And the Sopwith Tripe,and N11 does fall into that group," they out perform their counter part hands down. Any way this is OT, the OP wants to fly the camel, and was asking for help.


P.S. In ROF the Nieuport 11 is faster than it should be.
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#33 Dressedwings

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 14:56

The Nieuport 11 can hardly be faulted to be similar to a Pup or Camel. These aircraft are literally the press and go german killing machines.

Yes it is faster than it should be, but its German enemy type isn't completely out done. The Halberstadt can out turn an N11, and the Albatros DII/III can keep pace with it (mostly, our Albs are on the slower side because of borked data).
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#34 Surfimp

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 15:32

Chris9134, as you can see we've got a passionate community here :)

My only advice is to fly what calls to you, enjoy it, and do your best to master it… in my view, nobody here deserves to be told they're flying the "wrong plane" if that's the plane that they love and which drew them to RoF.

That said, I would encourage you to challenge yourself to master not only the Camel, but some of the other planes as well. Especially some of the less top performing ones. There is so much more to RoF than simple turnfights at 50ft above the ground!

See you up there… if you look closely you'll find my SPAD in the sun, hunting the Hun :S!:
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#35 =HillBilly=

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 15:43

surfimp 1++

Chris9134, by all means learn the Camel,and don't feel guilty about it, don't listen to whiners about "umber aircraft" they are all good. Besides it's another target for my Alby DVa. :D :S!:
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#36 HotleadColdfeet

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 15:58

Chris9134, as you can see we've got a passionate community here :)

My only advice is to fly what calls to you, enjoy it, and do your best to master it… in my view, nobody here deserves to be told they're flying the "wrong plane" if that's the plane that they love and which drew them to RoF.

That said, I would encourage you to challenge yourself to master not only the Camel, but some of the other planes as well. Especially some of the less top performing ones. There is so much more to RoF than simple turnfights at 50ft above the ground!

See you up there… if you look closely you'll find my SPAD in the sun, hunting the Hun :S!:
+1 If there's any advice you take away Chris, make this it. Thanks Surfimp! :S!:
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#37 Surfimp

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 16:14

And as a SPAD pilot, it goes without saying that I loathe the Dr.1 and D.VIIF with a passion I can't even begin to elucidate here.

Suffice to say I have fed the Fokker gods more than enough perfectly good SPADs in learning how not to fight against those planes… :lol:

Of course that makes shooting them down all the sweeter, and by golly, someone's got to fly my targets around for me :x
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#38 Dressedwings

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 17:27

its not about shaming the use of the Camel, its about making a decision to fly aircraft that offer more challenge, and more reward.

The Camel is a press button to kill once you figure out the blip and proper turn controls. If anything I agree with Surfimp. Spad!
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#39 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 17:31

The Camel is a press button to kill once you figure out the blip and proper turn control.

Exactly, once you get used to its quirkiness the Camel is the easiest plane to get kills in hands down.

PS. Hillbilly, Dressedwings forwarded me all the messages you wrote :S!:
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Liberator's Tutorials: http://steamcommunit...s/?id=438268482

 

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#40 =HillBilly=

=HillBilly=
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Posted 19 July 2014 - 18:11

PS. Hillbilly, Dressedwings forwarded me all the messages you wrote :S!:
:D
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     So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

 
 



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