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Aircraft comparison - anecdotal evidence


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#81 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 14:26

Thanks Gunsmith! I'll try to extract the bits that directly deal with aircraft performance. That story of the German intelligence officer is really good! Although I doubt he would confess this to a captured airman? :shock:

true. but stranger things have happened. OT: I think that would make an awesome mission for a SP campaign: flying in darkness over the lines, land at an allied aerdrome, take off again and defend against own units. The story has all the special excitement a good narrative needs.
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#82 Gunsmith86

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 15:59

The story is true and the officer could confess this to a captured airman because by the time he know that he would not make another such flight because of the ende of world war one was not far. Also if he could convince the pilot that he already know everything the airman would have posible told the view things that the germans didnt know too.

hope my english is good enough to say what i meant.
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#83 Gunsmith86

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 16:20

Fokker E.IV

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AEG G.III

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#84 ciki

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 23:08

Don't have a transcript… Camel (+Dolphin & Snipe) vs Fokkers:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2UPHXQ6V7s
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#85 SYN_Vander

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:09

No (relative) performance data in this excerpt (from Somme Success, by Peter Hart), but still worth adding here. Would you have done the same? In a Be2c?

Attached File  Be2c_StQuentin.gif   73.11KB   263 downloads
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#86 gavagai

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 11:54

Vander,

I only just saw this thread, but the very first line of your google doc caught my eye. I can't remember where I read it, but Guynemer was almost certainly not referring to a Halberstadt with the name "Halberstadt," as French pilots were in the habit of calling any German scout a Halberstadt at that time. There are later anecdotes about fighting Halberstadts even when Halberstadt D series fighters were no longer in service.
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#87 WW1EAF_Paf

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 13:54

Like german pilots called british planes "Sopwiths".
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#88 Waxworks

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 14:53

Hostile Skies p83 'The first war flight of the squadron took place in the late afternoon of 7 June, when a formation of four Salmsons, escorted by a flight of Spads from the 1st Pursuit Group, went over the lines at 10,000 feet. Although no enemy air activity was encountered, almost every plane was damaged by very heavy and accurate antiaircraft fire.'

I doubt that we could repeat this in Rise of Flight, while the flak can be made accurate enough it is far too destructive when it hits. Players aren't given the impression that they are in heavy flak before they are shot down. Whether it is the flak burst damage or the durability of the machines which needs alteration, flak which damaged machines would make for better gameplay.
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#89 gavagai

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 15:00

I doubt that we could repeat this in Rise of Flight, while the flak can be made accurate enough it is far too destructive when it hits. Players aren't given the impression that they are in heavy flak before they are shot down. Whether it is the flak burst damage or the durability of the machines which needs alteration, flak which damaged machines would make for better gameplay.

We could do that with a mod, but then it wouldn't matter for multiplayer.
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#90 SYN_Vander

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 15:42

Vander,

I only just saw this thread, but the very first line of your google doc caught my eye. I can't remember where I read it, but Guynemer was almost certainly not referring to a Halberstadt with the name "Halberstadt," as French pilots were in the habit of calling any German scout a Halberstadt at that time. There are later anecdotes about fighting Halberstadts even when Halberstadt D series fighters were no longer in service.

…which makes this quote quite worthless… :) But I'll add a note!
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#91 SeaW0lf

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 17:53

One of our most successful and popular planes was the Triplane. Fokker's triplane followed soon after, inspired by ours, but not really a direct copy. The Germans were afraid of our Triplane when it first carne out, because it had such a tight and quick turn. We tried to make that a feature of all our machines. We were very careful to keep our weights as close together as possible, and went very much for maneuverability in our designs. There was quite a strong movement for making aircraft automatically stable, but they found when they went to war with those machines, they weren't maneuverable enough. The BE2 was a case in point. That was the first biplane that went into comparatively mass production for the Flying Corps, but it was so stable that it was a perfect target. It was a fairly slow plane, too, and couldn't dodge. These were two reasons why it was mainly used for reconnaissance work.

Interview with Sir Thomas Sopwith – Voices in Flight.
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#92 SYN_Vander

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 19:28

Guys,

Thanks for all the quotes so far! Please provide transcripts if you can. I simply haven't time enough to type all the text by hand.
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#93 SeaW0lf

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:10

From time to time, I used to fly up to the Sopwith Triplane ceiling just for the exhilaration of doing so. On one occasion, someone had managed to discover that a German photographer was coming over. I was sent out to stay up, petrol permitting, to look out for him. It was absolutely gorgeous. I went up to 23,000 feet and nobody could reach me. I was probably the highest person in the world at that moment. Of course, only triplanes could have done it. I remember looking at this beautiful, blue sky, and singing. I didn't want to come down; I could have stayed up there forever. It was perfectly safe.

Interview with Sir Herbert Thompson – Voices in Flight.

By the way, this book seems to be a pearl and the price was symbolic (Kindle edition – 240 pages).
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#94 SeaW0lf

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 21:03

They'd just got the Sopwith Triplane, which I'd never flown before. Previously, I'd flown Pups; we had a Pup in No. 11, and I flew my first solo in a Pup. She was an adorable little thing. Like all the great Sopwiths, she was really a glider with an engine in it, and she'd float forever. The first time I ever took one up, the engine completely blotted out and I had to make a forced landing. I've no idea how long she floated. I chose my field and found that I was going to overshoot it; she floated across that field and she wouldn't come down. We ended up beautifully with the propeller just touching the edge of the end of the next field. She was a sweet thing.

Interview with Sir Herbert Thompson – Voices in Flight.
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#95 SeaW0lf

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 14:45

We hoped to establish our new aerodrome further forward, in this new country, but alas, we must remain in the wilderness.

The enemy has developed strength; everywhere there is lively flying activity shown by many squadrons. We fly our old machines as often as we can; we win victories and suffer losses. The English have new machines with which they can fly at great heights, unattainable to us. At five thousand metres our machines are un-certain swimmers and sideslip in their turns.

With envious eyes we see the Fokker triplanes of the Richthofen Staffels rise up playfully above us and haul their victims down from the heights. But we are in the air as often as we can manage it—for what else can we do!


Rudolph Stark – Wings of War [Spring 1918]
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#96 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 20:18

(…) Both Albatros and Pfalz had a wonderful respect for Camels, and it was necessary to go about small formations to get them so much as to fire a shot from above, let alone dogfight. (…)

V.M. Yeates - Winged Victory
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#97 WhoCares

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 22:08

Seawolf posted in an Albatros flight model thread a link to a page that drafted a small table comparing the N.28 performance with other contemporary planes, based on anecdotal evidence:
N.28 Page
At the very least the table below indicates how pilot's in that day and age viewed the airplane they flew as it compared with other aircraft.
Image

The numbers in round brackets reference to the source:
(8) "First to the Front" p.72 (9) "Fighting the Flying Circus" vy Edward V Rickenbacker, 1919. See Chap 3: 'the Nieuport can outmaneuver a Spad and has a little faster climb.' (10) "First to the Front" p.122 (11) "Fighting the Flying Circus", Chap 3; 'Nieuport can out-climb an Albatros (D series) and out maneuver him while doing so' (12) "Up and at em" p.162 (13) "Up and at Em" Hartney observed that combat loaded nieuport's were faster than an unarmed camel (p.181) (14) "Up and at Em" p.145 …his two-gun ship 'climbed even better than the Camel's at Gosport' (15) "Up and at Em" Hartney stated "To offset this we had the superior maneuverability of our faster and better climbing little Niuports against the sluggishness of the Boche Fokker D.VII's", p.171 (16) "Fighting the Flying Circus" Rickenbacker observed that the Nieuport can turn/twist with more agility than the Rumpler observation machine compared to which it was also observed that the Nieuport was both faster and faster in a dive (chap 13). (17) "Fighting the Flying Circus" Rickenbacker observed (chap 10) that his Nieuport had far greater speed than the observation albatros. (18) "Fighting the Flying Circus" Rickenbacker noted that the Pfaltz (D.III) could outdive the Nieuport (chap 4).

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#98 SeaW0lf

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 22:27

Great finding, WhoCares! I was looking for that thread but I thought that I had lost it!
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#99 SeaW0lf

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 00:45

1.9.1918.

We are to have more new machines. Everyone is pleased, especially the pilots who have not yet got their Fokkers [DVIIs]. But their joy is soon damped down, for the machines allotted to them are not Fokkers, but Pfalz D.12. What is a Pfalz D.12? No one has ever heard of such a machine, no one knows anything about it.

We decline to take these machines. The result is a series of long telephone conversations; we are told that they are very good, better than Fokkers in some respects (eyewash!), and we must take them. There are no more Fokkers to be had, and in any case these new Pfalzs are better than the old Albatroses, and when new Fokkers come along, we can take them in exchange.

Ali right; then we'll have the Pfalzs.

We go along to the park and take over the machines. The sight of them does not inspire much confidence; the fuselage and controls are the usual kinds, the wings are somewhat compacter, with a multitude of bracing wires. The whole contrivance looks just like a harp. We are spoilt for such machines, because we are too much accustomed to the unbraced Fokker wings.

Each of us climbed into the new machines with a prejudice against them and immediately tried to find as many faults as possible. The Staffel's opinion was the same as ours. The works sergeant grumbled because of the trouble the bracing was going to make for him while the mechanics cursed because of the extra work to assemble and dismantle them and declared them awkward to handle. No one wanted to fly those Pfalzs except under compulsion, and those who had to, made as much fuss as they could about practicing on them.

Later their pilots got on very well with them. They flew quite decently and could always keep pace with the Fokkers; in fact they dived even faster. But they were heavy for turns and fighting purposes, in which respect they were not to be compared with the Fokkers. The Fokker was a bloodstock animal that answered to the slightest movement of the hand and could almost guess the rider's will in advance. The Pfalz was a clumsy cart-horse that went heavy in the reins and obeyed nothing but the most brutal force.

Those who flew the Pfalzs did so because there were no other machines for them. But they always gazed enviously at the Fokkers and prayed for the quick chance of an exchange.


Rudolph Stark – Wings of War
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#100 SeaW0lf

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 18:54

Two posts from Panthera:

From Fokker DVII aces of WW1, Part one, Page 23 & 24.

[1]"Not only have we been operating in the "over-gas" throttle position almost constantly throughout aerial engagements, but also at low altitude, and without any damage to the engine."

[2]"Recently, a pilot, after being pressed down near a captive balloon, was attacked by some SPADs. He flew for over half an hour with the throttle in the "over gas" position and the motor at full revs (1500-1600 rpm) at a height of 100 metres, pursued by the SPADs. It was superior in rate to the SPADs. The engine ran smoothly and had not suffered in the slightest."

Also from French pilots:

"The triplane Fokker is disappearing little by little. The Fokker D VII (biplane) is reported by our pursuit pilots to be encountered frequently. It is an excellent machine, being better than the 180hp SPAD and equal to the 220hp SPAD in horizontal speed, and it is apparently able to climb faster, is extremely maneuverable and able to continue acrobacy at high altitudes of 5000 to 5500 metres."

That last quote, where is it from?

Vander, I just got the response from Panthera. It is from the book "SPAD XIII vs Fokker DVII". He writes:

The first quote is from Fokker DVII Aces of World War 1 Part One, page 24, by Norman L. R. Franks, Greg Van Wyngarden. The 2nd quote is from SPAD XIII vs Fokker DVII, page 33, by Jon Guttman.

Cheers,
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#101 Panthera

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 19:29

Yeah, apologies for the long response time, but I quite simply hadn't seen your message :oops:
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#102 SeaW0lf

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 21:00

Yeah, apologies for the long response time, but I quite simply hadn't seen your message :oops:

No problem! :S!:
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#103 thedudeWG

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 02:22

Speed: Pfalz D.III vs. Pup

From: Pfalz Scout Aces of World War 1

Sopwith Pup pilot Gordon Taylor of No 66 Sqn recalled encountering the new aircraft on 31 August;

'I watched them grow into the full shape of aeroplanes - all silver, but not the Albatros. The tailplane was different, more rectangular than the spade shape of the Albatros. They looked lighter, even slimmer than our usual opponents. They were Pfalz scouts. It was said that they weren't as good as the Albatros. But they were obviously still much faster than our machines.'

Attached File  2014-09-17_22-03-51.jpg   25.05KB   448 downloads

It's interesting, the phrase "still much faster than our machines." As if the German planes always were, including the Albatros.

My apologies if this one has been posted already. I looked in the spreadsheet and didn't see it listed, but I haven't gone through all of the posts in this thread.

:S!:
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#104 2Lt_Joch

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 13:37

interesting thread!

quote from the German ace Adolf Ritter Von Tutschek from his memoirs Stürme und Luftsiege written in late 1917. He left the front after he was wounded on august 11, 1917.

In the past four weeks three new types of enemy aircraft have appeared.
They are without a doubt far superior in their ability to climb than the best DV.
They are the new English SE5 single-seater, the 200hp SPAD and
the very outstanding Bristol Fighter two-seater.
While the Albatros DIII and DV come near in their ability to climb with the Sopwith
and Nieuport, and even surpass them in speed, it is almost impossible for them to force
an SE5 or a 200hp SPAD to fight because the enemy is able to avoid it by the ability of
his craft to outclimb the Albatros.

take away from the quote:

1. the Alb. D.III and D.V had similar climb rate/speed;
2. the Sopwith Pup and Nieuport 17 had a slightly better climb rate than the Alb. D.III/V;
3. the Alb. D.III/V were slightly faster than the N.17 and Pup;
4. the SPAD VII, SE5 and Bristol F2B all had much better climb rates than the Alb. D.III/V
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#105 SYN_Vander

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 16:17

Thanks guys! I'll start to process the latest additions…
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#106 2Lt_Joch

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 13:55

2nd lieutenant Reginald Hoidge, 56 squadron RFC, talking about the first generation SE5 to arrive in april 1917:

"… in those days it did about 110 mph over the ground; this was about 10 mph faster than the V-strutter Albatros - and that's what mattered!"

100 mph, that is around 165 kmh?

source: Hart, "Bloody April", p. 159.
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#107 thedudeWG

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 14:56

+10mph = +30mph in Rise of Flight … :roll:
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#108 2Lt_Joch

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 15:08

+10mph = +30mph in Rise of Flight … :roll:


apples and oranges…Hoidge is referring to the 1st gen. 150hp SE5, in game we have the 200hp SE5A.

The original SE5 had a top speed of around 103 mph, but pilots like Hoidge took out the canopy, armour plate and other sundries to make it lighter and faster.
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#109 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 10:09

but pilots like Hoidge took out the canopy, armour plate and other sundries to make it lighter and faster.

it should be noted though, that the assumption that lighter planes get simply faster as modeled in RoF is not entirely correct.

The overall lift-to-drag component stays the same and the AoA for it stays the same it only apears at faster speeds. Thats why you clip wings on racers, to get a high wingloading. Climbing is a different thing, though.
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#110 2Lt_Joch

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 15:53

"The D V is so obsolete and so ridiculously inferior to the English that one can't do anything with this aircraft. But the people at home have not bought anything new for almost a year, except for this lousy Albatros, and we have remained stuck with the D III."

-Manfred von Richtofen, in a july 18, 1917 letter to his friend Fritz von Falkenhayn.

source: SE 5a vs Albatros D V: Western Front 1917-18; Osprey, 2009, p. 22.

However, from the book, it is not clear of MvR is complaining about the performance of the D V or the issue of wing structural failures in flight.
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#111 gavagai

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 21:53

Dude,



150hp SE5 airspeed was 105mph at 15,000ft, about 15mph slower than the 200hp SE5a.
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#112 thedudeWG

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 22:24

No worries, Gav. I didn't catch the missing "a" anyway, so I'm glad it was pointed out. :S!:
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#113 gavagai

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 22:30

From Guttman:

SE5 Max speed (mph)

At 6,500ft 120
At 10,000ft 116
At 15,000ft 105
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#114 ZachariasX

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 11:16

*sigh*

Back on topic: Looking through the various sources quoted here I will get some books. What apprear to be good reads (& available) are:

- Sagittarius Rising (Cecil Lewis)
- Open Cockpit (A. G. Lee)
- Winged Victory (W. M. Yates)
- Flying Fury (T. B. McCudden)

Any other recommendations of books that are avaliable? Which are your preferred ones?



Btw.: anyone knows where the following book is available:

Lutz Budraß, "Flugzeugindustrie und Luftrüstung in Deutschland 1918–1945" ISBN 3-7700-1604-1

I know not WWI, but an interessting read.

Z
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#115 Ghost_666

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 13:57

*sigh*

Back on topic: Looking through the various sources quoted here I will get some books. What apprear to be good reads (& available) are:

- Sagittarius Rising (Cecil Lewis)
- Open Cockpit (A. G. Lee)
- Winged Victory (W. M. Yates)
- Flying Fury (T. B. McCudden)

Any other recommendations of books that are avaliable? Which are your preferred ones?



Btw.: anyone knows where the following book is available:

Lutz Budraß, "Flugzeugindustrie und Luftrüstung in Deutschland 1918–1945" ISBN 3-7700-1604-1

I know not WWI, but an interessting read.

Z

Bloody April by Peter Hart (A Cassell Military Paperback) seems to be a bloody good read, I,myself only 1/2 way through and quite enjoying it.И
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Circling, Circling, in the sun.  Desperately trying to use my gun.  Up and down and around about.  Left and right I through my Scout.  When I had that Hun, on the run.  My little Newport she spun.  Down and down, with speed I went.  Into the ground, without wings I was sent.  In the mess the empty chair is set.  My flying time is spent.

 


#116 ZachariasX

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 15:46

Bloody April by Peter Hart (A Cassell Military Paperback) seems to be a bloody good read, I,myself only 1/2 way through and quite enjoying it.И

I'll check it out, thank you :)
Z
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#117 Panthercules

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 00:24

I like this thread, and didn't want to see it descending into the usual personalized bickering, so I've "cleansed" a few of the recent posts.

You two (you know who you are) please keep your bickering in PM if you can't resist it completely.

Everybody please "stay on target, stay on target…"

Hopefully this small surgery can still save the patient :)
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#118 SYN_Vander

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 14:41

Bloody April by Peter Hart (A Cassell Military Paperback) seems to be a bloody good read, I,myself only 1/2 way through and quite enjoying it.И

I'll check it out, thank you :)
Z

I have read three books by Peter Hart, they are all excellent:

Somme Success: The Royal Flying Corps and the Battle of The Somme 1916
Bloody April
Aces Falling
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#119 ZachariasX

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 17:22

Bloody April by Peter Hart (A Cassell Military Paperback) seems to be a bloody good read, I,myself only 1/2 way through and quite enjoying it.И

I'll check it out, thank you :)
Z

I have read three books by Peter Hart, they are all excellent:

Somme Success: The Royal Flying Corps and the Battle of The Somme 1916
Bloody April
Aces Falling

Thank you. Amazon has them for Kindle it seems. I guess I give it a shot! Currently I'm reading through "Flying Corps Headquarters 1914-1918", by Maurice Baring. Although probably it will not appeal to everybody, it is kind of special. That guy is an incredibly literate guy, rich family, devoid of any ambition. And as such he functions as personal aide to Trenchard, so he gets to see the entire command, airfields and the front. How the likes of Lord Grantham (Downton Abbey, anyone? :D ) would write about their findings is slightly unique. To be on topic for this thread, he comments event like death of aces or other achievements. It is (to be on topic in this thread) impressive to see how different individual firsthand accounts of a given event can be.

As an example of a well-known event (well known in this forum I suppose) is his account of the death of Voss according to the interviews he led:


September 2Oth, 1917. News of more fighting. September 24th, 1917. Voss, the star German pilot, has been brought down. When we heard the news at luncheon the General sent me to No. 56 Squadron, where the pilots had brought him down, to get details. This was Rhys-Davids' account of the fight as he told it me himself:

"I saw three Huns attacking one S.E.; one triplane, light grey and brown, with slight extensions, one red-nosed V-Strutter, one green-nosed Scout. I never saw the green Scout again after the first dive. I then saw four S.E's. fighting the triplane and the red-nosed V.-Strutter. The triplane's top-plane was larger than the middle-plane. The engine was not a Mercedes, but I thought it was stationary. I wasn't sure. It had four guns. I thought the pilot was wearing a black leather flying-cap. Fired six or seven times and then went off to change my drum. The Hun either had armoured plates or else he was very lucky.

"Last dive but one. I went for him. He came from the East. Not quite straight behind, fired from a hundred yards to 70 and emptied a whole drum. The triplane only turned when 20 yards away. I turned to the right, so did he. Thought situation impossible, and that there would be a collision. I turned left and avoided him. I next saw the triplane at 1,500 feet below gliding West. Dived again, opened fire at about 100. Got one shot out of the Vickers (My Lewis drum was empty) without taking sights off. Reloaded my Vickers. Fired another twenty or thirty rounds. He overshot and zoomed away. Changed drum, then made for the red-nosed V-Strutter and started firing at about 100 yards. The V-Strutter was flying at an angle of about 45 degrees across the front, and I came at him slightly above. We both fired at each other. He stopped firing. I dived underneath him and zoomed up the other side. I saw the V-Strutter about 600 feet below spiralling North-West. I then lost sight of him and kept a good look-out low East, but saw no signs of him. During the whole scrap there were n to 14 E.A. higher East who made no attempt to fight."

McCudden said he saw a crash N.N.W. of Zonnebeck.

Maybery said :

"I saw the triplane and went down after it. It was grey with slight extensions as far as I can remember. It was followed by a green Scout. Someone came and shunted the green Scout. After that I saw Rhys-Davids dive on the triplane, followed by the red-nosed Scout. I attacked the red-nosed Scout. I zoomed up over him and couldn't see anything of them. I saw a triplane going East, but this one seemed to be different and green."

Hoidge said :

"I saw the bright green Hun going down on Maybery's tail at about 3,000 feet, and I fired with Vickers and Lewis at about 100 yards in order to frighten him. When about 30 yards away, the Hun turned South, and was flying directly in the line of fire. I finished a full drum of Lewis gun at about 10 yards from him. He turned right over and went down in a short dive and turned over again. The last I saw of him was going straight down in a dive about 800-1000 feet. I stopped following him because the triplane was right up above him and I had an empty drum. I flew to the line climbing, and put on a full drum and came back and attacked the triplane from the side as it was flying nose on to McCudden. I attacked him four or five times, but I didn't see what happened after this. I never saw the red nosed Scout at all. The green man didn't get a chance to Иscrap’.”

A couple of things I find remarkable and among them are:

•An SE5a disengages combat in order to replace the drum on the Lewis gun

•Firing range between 100 and 20 yards, and Aces like those above expend an entire drum of ammo (down to 10 yards range) without the enemy EA falling apart.

Z
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#120 SeaW0lf

SeaW0lf
  • Posts: 2415
  • LocationRio de Janeiro - Brazil

Posted 16 November 2014 - 01:57

Of all machines, the Triplane remains in my memory as the best—for the actual pleasure of flying—that I ever took up. It was so beautifully balanced, so well-mannered, so feather-light on the stick, and so comfortable and warm. It had what was then a novel feature, an adjustable tail plane to trim the machine fore and aft. Set correctly, with the throttle about three-quarters open, the Tripe would loop, hands off, indefinitely. Not for this, but for its docility, the lack of all effort needed to fly it, and yet its instantaneous response to the lightest touch, it remains my favorite. Other machines were faster, stronger, had better climb or vision, but none was so friendly as the Tripe. After it I never wanted to fly anything but a scout again, and on active service I never did.

Cecil Lewis, Sagittarius Rising
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