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#81 Pirato

Pirato
  • Posts: 1588
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Posted 10 May 2014 - 08:40

On the other side it makes it easier for the Killstealers that just cut right infront of your Gunsight to snatch your hard earned victory. Whats worse,you get the Friendly Fire penalty and they can get away unharmed. I rather have the possibility to shot those so called Teammates down when they are rude and stupid enough to cut into my sights….and I did that in the past without regret.
This argument has never really made much since to me.. For several reasons

1) It assumes that your team mate realizes he is in front of you and that he cut you off on purpose. Sure there are some tards online that are doing this on purpose, but for the most part Ill bet that 99 out of 100 of those situations the guy in front of you does not even realize you are behind him, let alone that he cut you off on purpose.

2) From a realism point of view.. I know I know, it is silly to 'expect' any semblance realistic tactics to be used in a high score motivated server.. But deep down I think most people are 'trying' to fly realistically as if their life depends on it.. Oh sure there are the tards like RamrJamr (aka InAgoDaVeda, Billy Kid, etc) that will ram you on purpose, but thankfully those types are in the minority. But I digress, the point here is, from a realism point as soon as you see one of your TEAM MATES in a better position than you, YOU should break off the attack and position yourself to SUPPORT your team mate. And yes, the guy between YOU and the ENEMY is typically the guy who is in a better position!

Hehe, I'd almost say turn off the whole scoring,so only the people come in for funs sake rather than for getting on top of a Virtual Scoreboard at any cost but I can see the point of the Scoring as its some kind of motivation for the majority.
Strange.. here you sound like you don't care about your 'score', yet your initial post above is very 'score' motivated.. That is to say, this statement of yours about turning the scoring system off sounds like you don't give a rip about your score, thus one would assume that when your team mate is between you and the enmy you would break off and let him have the kill.. Yet you also talk about how you wish you could shoot your team mates for doing so.. You seem to want it both ways?

Personally I could care less about my score, and I think it would be a good idea to turn it off! Because I think it would cause people to focus on fun and realistic tactics than the score. But sadly, I am in the minority! Most servers today are very score motivated! Thus I just try and make the best of it, do what I want to do and what is fun to me and could care less about the score.


To 1:
It certainly happens on accident and they really don't notice me,no doubt about that and those are not the ones I'm talking about. But when I'm sitting behind someone on pretty close range after a relatively long fight to even get into that position and some random player pushes between us right from above or from the sides you can't tell me that he doesn't have noticed that I'm already engaged with "his" Target, especially when he almost rams me out of the way ,and that is with Icons on. It's not that they just spawn right behind my target,they usually approach from quite a distance. Teamplay is switched to OFF on the server,sadly, so no one should expect that I'm about to cover those that don't care to give cover to me…

To 2:
Why should I break off when they just pushed infront of ME,THEY should hold and give support because ,as you said, the one behind the enemy is the one in the better position.

I couldn't care less about points,only stat I'm interested in is my accuracy. If I would care about points I would'nt fly so many inferior planes. If I would care about points I would put my Keyboard out of the way and turn off the damn chat,which distracted me so many times already. If I would care about points I would shoot at obviously out of combat pilots that try to land their crippled plane,or shoot them at take off.
I just don't like the behavior of getting a score at any cost,nearly getting rammed by so called "Teammembers". They don't thread me as a Teammate,so I don't thread them as one. I don't hold fire if they are stupid enough to get into my sights, they know the risk of getting shot when getting infront of anyones guns.
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#82 ST-Zeno

ST-Zeno
  • Posts: 297

Posted 10 May 2014 - 13:09

On the other side it makes it easier for the Killstealers that just cut right infront of your Gunsight to snatch your hard earned victory. Whats worse,you get the Friendly Fire penalty and they can get away unharmed. I rather have the possibility to shot those so called Teammates down when they are rude and stupid enough to cut into my sights….and I did that in the past without regret.
This argument has never really made much since to me.. For several reasons

1) It assumes that your team mate realizes he is in front of you and that he cut you off on purpose. Sure there are some tards online that are doing this on purpose, but for the most part Ill bet that 99 out of 100 of those situations the guy in front of you does not even realize you are behind him, let alone that he cut you off on purpose.

2) From a realism point of view.. I know I know, it is silly to 'expect' any semblance realistic tactics to be used in a high score motivated server.. But deep down I think most people are 'trying' to fly realistically as if their life depends on it.. Oh sure there are the tards like RamrJamr (aka InAgoDaVeda, Billy Kid, etc) that will ram you on purpose, but thankfully those types are in the minority. But I digress, the point here is, from a realism point as soon as you see one of your TEAM MATES in a better position than you, YOU should break off the attack and position yourself to SUPPORT your team mate. And yes, the guy between YOU and the ENEMY is typically the guy who is in a better position!

Hehe, I'd almost say turn off the whole scoring,so only the people come in for funs sake rather than for getting on top of a Virtual Scoreboard at any cost but I can see the point of the Scoring as its some kind of motivation for the majority.
Strange.. here you sound like you don't care about your 'score', yet your initial post above is very 'score' motivated.. That is to say, this statement of yours about turning the scoring system off sounds like you don't give a rip about your score, thus one would assume that when your team mate is between you and the enmy you would break off and let him have the kill.. Yet you also talk about how you wish you could shoot your team mates for doing so.. You seem to want it both ways?

Personally I could care less about my score, and I think it would be a good idea to turn it off! Because I think it would cause people to focus on fun and realistic tactics than the score. But sadly, I am in the minority! Most servers today are very score motivated! Thus I just try and make the best of it, do what I want to do and what is fun to me and could care less about the score.


To 1:
It certainly happens on accident and they really don't notice me,no doubt about that and those are not the ones I'm talking about. But when I'm sitting behind someone on pretty close range after a relatively long fight to even get into that position and some random player pushes between us right from above or from the sides you can't tell me that he doesn't have noticed that I'm already engaged with "his" Target, especially when he almost rams me out of the way ,and that is with Icons on. It's not that they just spawn right behind my target,they usually approach from quite a distance. Teamplay is switched to OFF on the server,sadly, so no one should expect that I'm about to cover those that don't care to give cover to me…

To 2:
Why should I break off when they just pushed infront of ME,THEY should hold and give support because ,as you said, the one behind the enemy is the one in the better position.

I couldn't care less about points,only stat I'm interested in is my accuracy. If I would care about points I would'nt fly so many inferior planes. If I would care about points I would put my Keyboard out of the way and turn off the damn chat,which distracted me so many times already. If I would care about points I would shoot at obviously out of combat pilots that try to land their crippled plane,or shoot them at take off.
I just don't like the behavior of getting a score at any cost,nearly getting rammed by so called "Teammembers". They don't thread me as a Teammate,so I don't thread them as one. I don't hold fire if they are stupid enough to get into my sights, they know the risk of getting shot when getting infront of anyones guns.

i agree with pirato in all points. Today i flew in three maps and was rammed 12 times by friendlys when i was in the six position to shoot the enemy fighter. its always the same behavior as in FC. Pilots with high skills like 310 Paul dont take care for teammates. they only looked for easy kills and steal kills of all costs even the life of teammates. After a while i am getting angry all the more they didnt excuse their rams. Ramming teammates this way needs a penalty.
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#83 shotdown

shotdown
  • Posts: 12

Posted 10 May 2014 - 13:21

On the other side it makes it easier for the Killstealers that just cut right infront of your Gunsight to snatch your hard earned victory. Whats worse,you get the Friendly Fire penalty and they can get away unharmed. I rather have the possibility to shot those so called Teammates down when they are rude and stupid enough to cut into my sights….and I did that in the past without regret.
This argument has never really made much since to me.. For several reasons

1) It assumes that your team mate realizes he is in front of you and that he cut you off on purpose. Sure there are some tards online that are doing this on purpose, but for the most part Ill bet that 99 out of 100 of those situations the guy in front of you does not even realize you are behind him, let alone that he cut you off on purpose.

2) From a realism point of view.. I know I know, it is silly to 'expect' any semblance realistic tactics to be used in a high score motivated server.. But deep down I think most people are 'trying' to fly realistically as if their life depends on it.. Oh sure there are the tards like RamrJamr (aka InAgoDaVeda, Billy Kid, etc) that will ram you on purpose, but thankfully those types are in the minority. But I digress, the point here is, from a realism point as soon as you see one of your TEAM MATES in a better position than you, YOU should break off the attack and position yourself to SUPPORT your team mate. And yes, the guy between YOU and the ENEMY is typically the guy who is in a better position!

Hehe, I'd almost say turn off the whole scoring,so only the people come in for funs sake rather than for getting on top of a Virtual Scoreboard at any cost but I can see the point of the Scoring as its some kind of motivation for the majority.
Strange.. here you sound like you don't care about your 'score', yet your initial post above is very 'score' motivated.. That is to say, this statement of yours about turning the scoring system off sounds like you don't give a rip about your score, thus one would assume that when your team mate is between you and the enmy you would break off and let him have the kill.. Yet you also talk about how you wish you could shoot your team mates for doing so.. You seem to want it both ways?

Personally I could care less about my score, and I think it would be a good idea to turn it off! Because I think it would cause people to focus on fun and realistic tactics than the score. But sadly, I am in the minority! Most servers today are very score motivated! Thus I just try and make the best of it, do what I want to do and what is fun to me and could care less about the score.


To 1:
It certainly happens on accident and they really don't notice me,no doubt about that and those are not the ones I'm talking about. But when I'm sitting behind someone on pretty close range after a relatively long fight to even get into that position and some random player pushes between us right from above or from the sides you can't tell me that he doesn't have noticed that I'm already engaged with "his" Target, especially when he almost rams me out of the way ,and that is with Icons on. It's not that they just spawn right behind my target,they usually approach from quite a distance. Teamplay is switched to OFF on the server,sadly, so no one should expect that I'm about to cover those that don't care to give cover to me…

To 2:
Why should I break off when they just pushed infront of ME,THEY should hold and give support because ,as you said, the one behind the enemy is the one in the better position.

I couldn't care less about points,only stat I'm interested in is my accuracy. If I would care about points I would'nt fly so many inferior planes. If I would care about points I would put my Keyboard out of the way and turn off the damn chat,which distracted me so many times already. If I would care about points I would shoot at obviously out of combat pilots that try to land their crippled plane,or shoot them at take off.
I just don't like the behavior of getting a score at any cost,nearly getting rammed by so called "Teammembers". They don't thread me as a Teammate,so I don't thread them as one. I don't hold fire if they are stupid enough to get into my sights, they know the risk of getting shot when getting infront of anyones guns.

All good arguments, as usual in these things I can see both sides, I know Sid is currently working on changes to the scoring system in AF so hopefully he can come up with something that satisfies everyone. :S!:
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#84 ACE-OF-ACES

ACE-OF-ACES
  • Posts: 24

Posted 10 May 2014 - 15:16

To 1:
It certainly happens on accident and they really don't notice me,no doubt about that
And just encase my subtle point was missed, allow me to add to this and say that IMHO this is the RULE (read majority) and those who do it on purpose are the EXCEPTION (read minority)

And also allow me to add by saying that it is border line 'silly' to expect anything else in a gang bang high score motivated server!

Where REALISTIC tactics and actions are the EXCEPTION (read minority) and mosh pit ring around the rosy fur balls are the RULE (read majority).

Because, there is no fear of death in a server like this to temper one's actions, let alone any down side, simply hit the respawn button, thus tunnel vision target fixation is the RULE (read majority) and good situational awareness (SA) with the application of real world tactics is the EXCEPTION (read minority). Add to that the brass ring of high score and about the only thing one can expect in a server like is is the 1980s mosh pit style of flying.. Where you can fully expect to catch an elbow to the face at any moment (read someone running into you or getting in front of you)

and those are not the ones I'm talking about.
Roger, you are not talking about the RULE (read majority) your talking about the occasional onezie twozie EXCEPTIONS (read minority) that you know deep down inside in your harts of harts that they did it on purpose.

But when I'm sitting behind someone on pretty close range after a relatively long fight to even get into that position and some random player pushes between us right from above or from the sides you can't tell me that he doesn't have noticed that I'm already engaged with "his" Target, especially when he almost rams me out of the way ,and that is with Icons on. It's not that they just spawn right behind my target,they usually approach from quite a distance.
Sure there are EXCEPTIONS (read minority) to the RULE (read majority) but why let these onezie twozie incidents get you riled up, or worse yet, allow these onezie twozie incident drive changes in the rules of the server that typically hurt the honest players more than it hurts the few tards that do this on purpose.

That and keep in mind that most players (read majority) are NOT paying attention to how long you have been chasing a target.. as noted above in the mosh pit style of ring around the rosy dog fighting most are so fixated on the target that they don't see YOU let alone the ENEMY plane moving into position on THEIR six.

Teamplay is switched to OFF on the server,sadly, so no one should expect that I'm about to cover those that don't care to give cover to me…
Interesting.. I don't even know what 'teamplay' settings are, and frankly I don't care! Because, as noted in my earlier post, for the most part I think most people are 'trying' to fly as realistically as they can, which in turn means most people would assist a team mate..

To 2:
Why should I break off when they just pushed infront of ME,THEY should hold and give support
Easy, for one it would be the realistic thing to do! secondly it is something someone would do who does not care about high scores.. Granted it is hard to tell if you care about your score based on your previous post because you flip flop in that post where at one moment you were complain about someone steeling your kill than in the next breath you were saying you wish they turned the scoring system off.

because ,as you said, the one behind the enemy is the one in the better position.
You miss understood what I said.. The point your missing is that once your team mate gets between you and the enemy plane, he is now the one in the better position and once you realize (see) that, if you continue to fire, your not being realistic in any way shape or form and are acting like a point whore.

I couldn't care less about points,only stat I'm interested in is my accuracy.
You say that, but everything else your saying leads me to belive otherwise.. For example, once a team mate gets between you and the enemy plane, that does not diminish your shooting accuracy! All it can potentially do is diminish your kill count due to your team mate finishing the job.

If I would care about points I wouldn't fly so many inferior planes. If I would care about points I would put my Keyboard out of the way and turn off the damn chat,which distracted me so many times already. If I would care about points I would shoot at obviously out of combat pilots that try to land their crippled plane,or shoot them at take off.
And if you didn't care about points, you would not care about the team mate getting between you and the enemy and finishing off the kill..

Or..

Are you trying to tell me that your SA is so poor that you don't notice the team mates plane moving infront of you until his plane has moved directly into your steam of bullets? That would be a world class case of TUNNEL VISION and TARGET FIXATION!

The only other case where this could happen is in the mosh pit ring around the rosy style of dog fighting you see online at tree top level.. Which as noted above, it would be board line silly to expect no one to run into you let alone suddenly jink in front of you.. In those Quake high score totally unrealistic situations ALL BETS ARE OFF! And as a mater of fact I would blame you for allowing yourself to get yourself into such a situation in the first place! Does it happen to all of us from time to time? Oh sure! But I would not complain here or online about someone running into me or cutting in front of me while I was in the mosh pit, because I would be totally surprised if someone did NOT run into me or cut in front of me while in the mosh pit.

I just don't like the behavior of getting a score at any cost,nearly getting rammed by so called "Teammembers".
Well.. than maybe this is not the server for you? Because these Quake style of servers are predominately high score oriented and thus very unrealistic in so many ways.

While we are on the subject, there is no better feeling of accomplishment than drawing one of the high score jokies off from the pack and applying realistic tactics and besting them! Take RamrJamr for example, he is typically in the top 5 score wise, but each time I have drawn him away from the crowd for a little one on one action I have bested him each time. Which just goes to show these servers can have moments of realism, but the key to keeping your blood pressure low is not to expect it!

They don't thread me as a Teammate,so I don't thread them as one.
And there is the core of your problem! You let them get to you such that you changed your way of doing things. Don't let the onezie twozie tards change the way you treat other people! That is to say don't let them drag you down to their level.

I don't hold fire if they are stupid enough to get into my sights, they know the risk of getting shot when getting infront of anyones guns.
I think I have figured out your problem?

You realize that not everyone does this on purpose.. But.. I think you including too many of the folks who didn't realize it into your category of they did it on purpose..

In summary, I think you give most of the pilots too much credit!

Consider this.. If they were THAT GOOD that they could position themselves between you and the enemy ON PURPOSE.. Than they are good enough to have shot down the enemy without having to resort to such tactics!

That is to say, I think the number of pilots online that log in with the sole purpose to F with Pirato are very Very VERY small (read minority)..

To have fun in these types of servers, and keep your blood pressure down, you have to learn to be more duck like and let it go! If you don't, it will end up turning you into one of them! And your too good of a sim pilot AND PERSON to let that happen!!

Which is not to say that I am perfect and that I have never got upset! With that in mind we all have done everything anyone could ever think of doing online, ramming, tking, shoulder shooting, etc..

We are human!

What sets us apart from the tards of this world is the percentage of doing it! Some only resort to such child like tactics when pushed to the limit, some, and thankfully only a few (read minority) can not fly without doing it.. They consider ramming just another method of taking down a plane.

So don't take this as me trying to be preachy or try to sound like I am better than you! I am not, I am simply a guy who has been playing online flight sims since 1994, and I have learned that there are tards online, and that it is not worth letting them upset you to the point that you resort to their tactics..

So my 20+ years of flight simming advice is simple.. Let it go!

At which point you will find yourself having more fun! Trust me!
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#85 =HillBilly=

=HillBilly=
  • Posts: 5605
  • LocationSouthern Ozark Mountains

Posted 10 May 2014 - 15:45

The way I see it is most online pilots have little regard for sportsmanship, it is all too common to see 3-4 on 1 furballs. I often get involved in such as the one,but unlike most people I enjoy the challenge, and very happy to damage at lest one or two. Collisions happen, it's a fact of life, but remember it takes 2 to collide. Like Ace said get over it and have fun,isn't what this game is about.
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     So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

 
 


#86 The_Locksmith

The_Locksmith
  • Posts: 22

Posted 10 May 2014 - 16:26

Maybe we should have a mission with no guns, just ramming only. only way to get a point, is to ram. So people can get it out of there systems. im being facetious of course But like most people know, ramming is pretty much always going to be around, whether its on purpose, or by accident (like me). and there is almost nothing to we can do to stop it, except kick/ban. :o
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#87 ST_ami7b5

ST_ami7b5
  • Posts: 2137

Posted 10 May 2014 - 16:32

Pirato is the nicest person I've ever met online.
Fair guy, very good pilot, always ready to help/give an advice to less experienced pilots.
:S!:
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#88 Pirato

Pirato
  • Posts: 1588
  • LocationUnder a Bridge

Posted 10 May 2014 - 17:19

ACE-OF-ACES,I'm not getting upset by anything happening in a Computergame. I'm having my fun on FC and now on Aces Falling Server,though it gets a bit sore lately but thats another story.

Pirato wrote:
Teamplay is switched to OFF on the server,sadly, so no one should expect that I'm about to cover those that don't care to give cover to me…

Interesting.. I don't even know what 'teamplay' settings are, and frankly I don't care! Because, as noted in my earlier post, for the most part I think most people are 'trying' to fly as realistically as they can, which in turn means most people would assist a team mate..

There is no Teamplay setting of course ,I just meant that any kind of Teamplay is almost non existent. You don't care,but I do. For what there are 2 Teams, I don't know really…could aswell every player make his own Team and go all vs all. As for most would assist a Teammate,not in my experience. It's rather the opposite,getting crowded by the own Team is the RULE and not the Exception…

Pirato wrote:
To 2:
Why should I break off when they just pushed infront of ME,THEY should hold and give support

Easy, for one it would be the realistic thing to do! secondly it is something someone would do who does not care about high scores.. Granted it is hard to tell if you care about your score based on your previous post because you flip flop in that post where at one moment you were complain about someone steeling your kill than in the next breath you were saying you wish they turned the scoring system off.

Please don't get the realism argument in,it's a Quake style server as you already said and realistic behaviour is missplaced…huh like cutting infront of someone.
I'm not complaing about "Stealing a kill",I'm complaining about nearly getting rammed by my own side on regular basis,it's not the exception like you are saying atleast in my experience. Would someone ask me to move aside I would,as I have often written in the chat.

Pirato wrote:
I couldn't care less about points,only stat I'm interested in is my accuracy.

You say that, but everything else your saying leads me to belive otherwise.. For example, once a team mate gets between you and the enemy plane, that does not diminish your shooting accuracy! All it can potentially do is diminish your kill count due to your team mate finishing the job.

It's your own conclusion on what you believe. I think you met me up there already and I think you know that I never insist on a Kill or whatever.


Pirato wrote:
If I would care about points I wouldn't fly so many inferior planes. If I would care about points I would put my Keyboard out of the way and turn off the damn chat,which distracted me so many times already. If I would care about points I would shoot at obviously out of combat pilots that try to land their crippled plane,or shoot them at take off.

And if you didn't care about points, you would not care about the team mate getting between you and the enemy and finishing off the kill..

Or..

Are you trying to tell me that your SA is so poor that you don't notice the team mates plane moving infront of you until his plane has moved directly into your steam of bullets? That would be a world class case of TUNNEL VISION and TARGET FIXATION!

I see them coming, and they see me engaged with someone and beeing in advantage. No one can make me believe that if someone closes in from like 1km he doesn't see me chasing the enemy. They just press onward at any cost. It happens by Veterans and new players alike. I can excuse it from a new player,but seeing Vets doing it on so a regular basis is just shameless,especially when there are enough other red ones around.

The only other case where this could happen is in the mosh pit ring around the rosy style of dog fighting you see online at tree top level.. Which as noted above, it would be board line silly to expect no one to run into you let alone suddenly jink in front of you.. In those Quake high score totally unrealistic situations ALL BETS ARE OFF! And as a mater of fact I would blame you for allowing yourself to get yourself into such a situation in the first place! Does it happen to all of us from time to time? Oh sure! But I would not complain here or online about someone running into me or cutting in front of me while I was in the mosh pit, because I would be totally surprised if someone did NOT run into me or cut in front of me while in the mosh pit.

I'm not hanging around at Treetops usually,I'm not circle jerking around a Tree or a roof of a house.I'm up there alone mostly when I dive on someone. Of course the fight moves lower over time, and as more time goes by the higher the chances get that someone finds my target an appealing one too….as if its the only one flying around. I'm not complaing ingame,I just give them some bullets if they insist of getting right infront of me.

Pirato wrote:
They don't thread me as a Teammate,so I don't thread them as one.

And there is the core of your problem! You let them get to you such that you changed your way of doing things. Don't let the onezie twozie tards change the way you treat other people! That is to say don't let them drag you down to their level.

I treat people the way they treat me. You should know me by now that I'm mostly a fair player,but some are just asking for getting a kick in the bum.

To have fun in these types of servers, and keep your blood pressure down, you have to learn to be more duck like and let it go! If you don't, it will end up turning you into one of them! And your too good of a sim pilot AND PERSON to let that happen!!

Heh I'm always calm and not easily beeing upset,atleast not in a Computer game. No worries I will never resort to cheap things like Vulching,ramming on purpose or cutting infront of someones guns on purpose.
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Dann gibt's Heulen und Zähne klammern, für das ganze Lumpenpack.
Dann ist Schluss mit "Tischlein deck' dich", da gibt's "Knüppel aus dem Sack"!


#89 kaju1109

kaju1109
  • Posts: 1

Posted 11 May 2014 - 11:13

Love this server a lot! It's like a Flying Circus's succesor lol.
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#90 ST-Zeno

ST-Zeno
  • Posts: 297

Posted 11 May 2014 - 13:47

Sid, i saw that i have 8 friendly kills in stats and i am very shocked about that. :shock: i did not shoot friendlys in fighter planes, i know that. it only can happen by me as tailgunner or bomber pilot in the heat of combat( when being wounded or human gunners do so and that counts for me to) Anyway its difficult to recognize without friendly damage massages.
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#91 ACE-OF-ACES

ACE-OF-ACES
  • Posts: 24

Posted 11 May 2014 - 16:20

ACE-OF-ACES,I'm not getting upset by anything happening in a Computergame. I'm having my fun on FC and now on Aces Falling Server,though it gets a bit sore lately but thats another story.
Well yes, if it was not fun none of us would be doing this! My point is simple, let the onezie twozie things slide and you will not get sore and thus have more fun!

There is no Teamplay setting of course ,I just meant that any kind of Teamplay is almost non existent. You don't care,but I do.
Ah, you misunderstood me! I do care about team work online! What I meant when I said "I don't care" is that I don't care if this server team play option is turned on or off, I am always team work oriented.

As for most would assist a Teammate,not in my experience. It's rather the opposite,getting crowded by the own Team is the RULE and not the Exception…
Well there is no way to prove it one way or another.. but based on my experience I see a lot of guy jumping in to help another pilot.. I guess it depends on your point of view.. For example, take three planes, two are involved in a one on one dog fight.. The third sees his team mate involved in a dog fight that is not 100% clear that his team mate is going to win.. Thus he jumps in to assist..

It is at that point that I conclude there is TEAM WORK!

But as the fight progresses, there may come a point where the third plane maneuvers into a position that makes the original team mate feel he has been crowded out by his own team mate..

It is at that point that YOU conclude there is NO TEAM WORK!

Granted my point of view stems from a positive one, where I want to see team mates helping others, where as yours stems from a negative one, where you see team mates crowding out others..

Same event, but two different perspectives!

Please don't get the realism argument in,it's a Quake style server as you already said and realistic behaviour is missplaced…
Well like I said, you should not 'expect' realistic behavior, which should not be confused with you trying to play realisticly.

huh like cutting infront of someone.
Cutting in front of someone happened in real life!

Why?

Well probably the biggest reason it happed is due to the fact that we do NOT have eyes in the backs of our heads..

The difference here is that in real life, when a team mate saw his team mate MOVE INTO A BETTER POSITION, i.e. between him and the enemy, he would STOP SHOOTING and let his team make take over and he would move into a covering position.. Sadly that does not happen here! Due to the Quake point whore motivation and no real fear of death.. THE ONLY THING THAT STOPS SOMEONE FROM CONTINUING TO SHOOT AFTER THEIR TEAM MATE HAS MOVED INTO A BETTER POSITION IS THE FRIENDLY FIRE SETTING that causes damage to their own plane as opposed to their team mates plane that has moved into a better portion.

I'm not complaing about "Stealing a kill",I'm complaining about nearly getting rammed by my own side on regular basis, it's not the exception like you are saying atleast in my experience.
The way I see it there are two cases you could be referring to here..

1) Your in a mosh pit style dog fight with many planes involved.
2) Your in a one on one dog fight away from the pack.


Note the two cases above are the two ends of the scale, as to say the extreme examples.

In case 1 I have no pity for you what so ever! If you allowed yourself to get involved in a mosh pit ring around the rosy dog fight at tree top level, you should expect to be rammed at some point by someone simply due to the mosh pit form of dog fighting.

In case 2 I can feel for you if you were rammed by someone while you were involved in a one on one dog fight, because in such a scenario there is no excuse that the pilot's SA was over loaded, he saw the situation and could have avoided it.. The only way I would cut such a person slack is if I was loosing the fight big time, as in it was clear to all that I was about to die and my team mate took a chance to try and save me, but it went wrong and he rammed me trying to save me.

Now lets talk about statistics

Since this is a Quake high score motivated type of server, I think we can all agree that case 1 is the RULE (read majority) and case 2 is the EXCEPTION (read minority)

Thus if your referring to case 1, I can see why you 'FEEL' ramming is NOT the exception! But also as I noted above, I have NO PITY for those who get involved in case 1 types of fights.

If your referring to case 2, and we all agree this is the EXCEPTION to the RULE, than I have to wonder why your letting these onezie twozie infrequent events upset you? Let it go!

It's your own conclusion on what you believe. I think you met me up there already and I think you know that I never insist on a Kill or whatever
That is the hard part for me to reconcile here.. In that I have seen you online and I KNOW YOUR NOT A POINT WHORE! Yet all your arguments for turning off friendly fire sound very much like the arguments the point whores make for turning it off.

I see them coming, and they see me engaged with someone and being in advantage.
I think this statement sheds some light onto why you are getting sore! You are assuming that they see you! Chances are they are focus more on the enemy plane than yours! That is just natural! But this also goes back to the two cases I listed above, if you expect people to have eyes in the backs of their heads in a mosh pit style of dog fighting.. THAN YOU EXPECT TOO MUCH FROM PEOPLE!

No one can make me believe that if someone closes in from like 1km he doesn't see me chasing the enemy. They just press onward at any cost. It happens by Veterans and new players alike. I can excuse it from a new player,but seeing Vets doing it on so a regular basis is just shameless,especially when there are enough other red ones around.
As noted above, this case 2 type of scenario is the case where I can understand why you get upset, but as I noted above, these case 2 types of scenarios are the EXCEPTIONS to what goes on in a Quake high score motivated type of server. Thus I have to wonder why these onezie twozie infrequent events upset you?

Now, these case 2 types of scenarios can be frustrating to the types of pilots like myself who fly realistically, and avoid the case 1 types of dog fights that require no skill and are totally luck based.. By frustrating, it sucks to spend 10 min in a one on one dog fight, where you have bested your opponent, only to have them dive away and be finished off by some point whore..

But in such cases you have to look for the silver lining!

You gained useful experience by applying real world tactics to best the enemy.. You know in your hart of harts you bested him..

So who cares is some noob or point whore finished him off while he was trying to land his damaged plane..

You WON!

Granted, it is frustrating, but only a person who cares about his score would let it get under his skin such that he sore about it!

Let it go!

And enjoy knowing that you just bested someone in a dog fight! There is no better feeling KNOWING you did it, and it only gets better when you did it against one of the top five point whores in the server!

As I noted in my last post, each time I have managed to drag RamrJamr (also known as InAgoDaDavida, Billy Kid, etc) off into a one on one I have bested him!

And it only gets better when they accuse you of cheating! To me there is no better compliment than to be accused of cheating by one of these point whores who start to belive they are 'good' based on their points!

Their ego is such that they start to belive that the only way they can be beat is if the person that beat them is cheating!

On that note with RamrJamr.. It got so bad after the 3rd or 4th time that I beat him in a one on one that he started accusing me of not only cheating, but being one of the FC mods and that I had enabled some server option that gave me special powers..

That is the best compliment you can ever get from a point whore!!!

But I digress! ;)

I'm not hanging around at Treetops usually,I'm not circle jerking around a Tree or a roof of a house.I'm up there alone mostly when I dive on someone. Of course the fight moves lower over time, and as more time goes by the higher the chances get that someone finds my target an appealing one too….as if its the only one flying around. I'm not complaing ingame, I just give them some bullets if they insist of getting right infront of me
Ah.. so a noob cut you off because he is a noob, or a vet cut you off because he is a point whore.. And this gives you the right to team kill?

To me that is worse than being a noob or point whore that cut you off!

And THAT is EXACTLY why I like having the friendly fire option turn on!

Because it removes that form of team killing justice, which only has a snow ball effect to ruin the whole server.

people the way they treat me. You should know me by now that I'm mostly a fair player,
Yes, but I have to admit, I am surprised at what you said above!

I can not belive that you let these noobs and point whores upset you to the point that you resort to team killing!

To me that is reserved for the F-tards that purposely ram you, or jump into one of your gun positions and shoot your plane, stuff like that is what I reserve TKing for.

but some are just asking for getting a kick in the bum
And some consider those who shoot at a team mate, FOR ANY REASON, to be a bum that should be banned

Heh I'm always calm and not easily being upset,atleast not in a Computer game. No worries I will never resort to cheap things like Vulching,ramming on purpose or cutting infront of someones guns on purpose.
That is my perception of you! Your a good guy and a good sim pilot!

Therefore I will chalk up what you said abut shooting at a team mate for cutting you off as just a BAD DAY! We all have them! We all go there from time to time! So, just because someone did it does not mean they are a bad person/pilot!

What defines an F-tard pilot is someone that resorts to these tactics without a seconds thought, as in they see ramming and the like as just another tool in their tool box to be applied at any time for any reason.

Take RamrJamr for example, or what ever his handle is this week, if he finds himself in a situation that he can not win, he will simply ram you to end the fight in a draw, thus preserving his ego's vision of himself as a great pilot.
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#92 ST_ami7b5

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 16:41

Will we end here:
Image
?
:?
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#93 Pirato

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 17:05

Okay,I think we can discuss about it all night and day. We got different opinions of course.

One more thing I can say:

The way I see it there are two cases you could be referring to here..

1) Your in a mosh pit style dog fight with many planes involved.
2) Your in a one on one dog fight away from the pack.

I take the 2. over the 1. I'm staying out of the mob usually, sometimes I charge just in though. And yes,then I expect to colide and get crowded. Lately mostly going for BnZ, atleast then I'm too fast to get crowded.

Pirato wrote:
but some are just asking for getting a kick in the bum

And some consider those who shoot at a team mate, FOR ANY REASON, to be a bum that should be banned

They are right about it and I'm no exception.
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#94 Immortal_PP

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:09

Hi Sid,
Appreciate you checking these FF stats and banning if necessary. The said pilot has been shooting at me many times with friendly fire, cowardly when taking off behind me or attacking me from above! My vote would go for re-instating the friendly fire penalty just to stop guys like this. (Never try and help him shooting down a twin-seater or accidentally put a last bullet in his target crossing in front of you, or you will get it in the ass from him for time to come! (AKA - Target Practice2)
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#95 Gump

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 23:21

imho, this server is attractive to quite a mix of skills and intentions. in my server list, it is ALWAYS the most active. actually, only a couple/three other servers have ANY activity at other times.
.
so…. if there are many others like me, this is really where this online multiplayer (read:real human pilots) sim/game is happening. now i'm kinda a noob, so i need experience with dogfighting and different planes, and that's what i look for in this server. that's what i get. playing against AI is not the same, by far (it's much easier).
.
so, i'm a noob :S!: , especially to PvP. regarding collisions, i have my share. believe me, they are never intentional, and i understand the frustration caused. i'm trying to figure out how to avoid them, but that aint easy, especially when you see the advantage going to the bandit cuz you yielded or you're in some kind of frenzied beehive. seems to me that collisions involve two ppl, and both may be to 'blame'. personally, i never get upset about a collision. i figure it's an unintentional part of a dogfight when it happens. if some do it on purpose, i haven't noticed them yet.
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regarding team killing, i've see it a couple times, noticeably when there arent any bandits around. but not much. the 1st time i saw this was in wargrounds, where there is a constant reminder forbidding it. i thought it was a misidentification (no icons) and flew between the friendlies to get the aggressor's attention - crashed into one of them. occured to me later that it might be road/sky rage. i've been in the situation (aces falling) where someone behind me was shoulder shooting, and/or had my obvious kill stolen. i don't know the intentions and, even if it was purposefully done, i don't let it anger me. it IS bothersome, and something that should be unlearned and avoided. i don't know how many times i might do this to anyone (unintentionally), so i can understand the need for some tolerance.
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… i've grown a lot in my understanding of the etiquette of the fight since i started playing. also, my patience, SA and tactics have developed. i can certainly understand when i see something that i may have done only a few weeks ago happening. so i don't let it get to me. it DOES help, though, for someone to patiently and kindly instruct or correct. AF gets a little heated sometimes in the chat where, imho, it could be more diplomatic and tolerant. when i fly, i rarely see anything but pilots trying to dogfight or bomb with the sole intent of trying their best within their understanding of the rules and etiquette. i am pretty pleased with the AF falling play. i don't doubt there may be some fringe behavior occaisionally, or some learning to do, but it is very enjoyable to me. i EXPECT collisions in this kind of constant, intense action and i see them all the time by others besides me. if there is friendly fire / tema killing, it is rare, unless it is accidental (stray bullets or not seeing a frendly past the target). also, i've noticed i got cited for FF when i exploded a bomb as i was crashing among enemies in their field! i think the stats may be a dangerous measuring stick.
.
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maybe just a kind word or two to someone who is constantly and obviously violating etiquette (shoulder shooting, stealing kills, etc) would go a long ways? i know the chat thing is kind of inefficient, but nobody seems to use teamspeak on the AF server, so it's the only way to communicate. there is a lot of (potential for) diversity of pilots in here (although they all seem to be pretty darn good, imho). it's a unique format: fast, continuous, often frenzied. obviously attractive since it always seems to be busy (while i catch all other servers dormant occasionally). tolerance and patience are necessary, as is an effective but kind way to communicate. pilots should expect a very short lifespan in this server. but spawns are immediate, so let the steam subside. stats/points are neat, but many fly without that consideration (especially since they seem to be a bit flawed).
.
.
here's an idea, if the pgm can accommodate… at the beginning of each spawn give an etiqutte tip/explanation, flying tip, plane stat/fact, or tactical tip.
.
.
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#96 Gump

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 23:32

btw, i find it a bit ironic with the name "aces falling" and this whole play seems to suit individual tactics best. "aces falling" describes a time when the individual tactics, the lone "ace", was being replaced with/by teams/formations. in here, even though we have teams, everyone typically flies/fights as an individual. nothing wrong with that, it just conflicts with the name of the server.
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#97 Gump

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 23:43

hey, another idea, to help new pilots learn, maybe someone should make some short videos showing and narrating etiquette, kinda like requiem's rof vids. show one between missions or something. show the violation and the solution.
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just sayin'.
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#98 The_Locksmith

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 02:53

well captain sid tell us! what did you update/change about the server? i was just in the server with you when you said you were doing changes
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#99 =AH=_Sid

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 03:05

I've set the server to run in 'Full Real + Icons', we'll see how everyone gets on with this. :)
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#100 Ben_Twings

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 03:18

You're almost there, but to sanitise this server properly you need to lock the fuel and ammo.
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Polish-infested London


#101 ST_ami7b5

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 05:42

I've set the server to run in 'Full Real + Icons', we'll see how everyone gets on with this. :)

Great!!!
This kind of server was missing.
:S!:
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#102 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 08:43

I've set the server to run in 'Full Real + Icons', we'll see how everyone gets on with this. :)

Great news, thank you!
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#103 Gump

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 19:00

intersting… gotta play and see how it goes.
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i can guess why the icons are there (because both 'sides' have a choice of german or entente planes), but i kinda wish they'd go away…
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the BnZ planes are at a real disadvantage when they can be seen with an icon. there is almost no possibility of suprise (bounce) with icons on. sure, the icons can also show a BNZ plane who is below him, but it doesn't much matter if his 'prey' sees him coming. the BnZ'ers have to look for a dogfight and bounce someone who is distracted already (shoulder shooting? kill stealing? crowds?)
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also, there are ALWAYS head-on shots cuz you know who's coming at you. without icons, you often have to pass/merge before taking action.
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icons make a multiplane dogfight furball/swarm (or whatever you call 'em) WAY easier. without icons the fights get scary and overload the ooda loop much sooner, since you often aren't sure who just turned in front of you or who is circling a little further behind - friend or foe. you have to take time to ID the plane, not just recognize the blue or red text color. this accelerates the "quake" factor, and should tend to make the crowds thin out adn/or spread out a little?
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edit: BOMBERS. icons are real spoilers for bombers, cuz they often need time to get altitude or need to sneak around/past the enemy. no icons would make bombers more attractive to fly. with icons on, it is a short suicide mission.
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icons are nice for saving time finding/ID'ing the enemy or recognizing a dis/advantage before it's too late, if that is preferred over the reciprocal. also, they are NECESSARY if both sides have access to the same planes.
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i am guessing that the both-sides-accessing-the-same-planes idea is the reason for the icons, and the planes choice is a key idea of this server? wait a minute, have i ever seen where there is a german only side vs an enetente only side? … do the settings (full real, icons, etc) apply to every map/mission on the server, or can they be switched/changed?
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at last, i hope it works out, as anything is usually an enjoyable time and challenging experience. …see you in the skies (i'll be the one headed for the ground sans wings) :S!:
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#104 Gump

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 19:07

btw, this means we have to wait for engines to warm up before takeoff, and need to maintain temp and mixture. is there any other difference(s)?
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the DR1's and camels don't need to warm up or maintain temp, do they?
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#105 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 19:17

Gump, don't spend too much time flying with icons. You develop bad habits. You are doing ok in Wargrounds. You just need more practice.
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#106 Gump

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 19:37

Gump, don't spend too much time flying with icons. You develop bad habits. You are doing ok in Wargrounds. You just need more practice.

agreed. i've come to prefer no icons for various reasons. certainly adds depth to the game. but this server allows/requires them, since both sides have access to the same planes.

i DO like the action on this server especially for pvp dogfight practice and some live bomber practice. reason being that you can fight, die, and fight again much quicker than other servers. maybe that idea favors icons (enemy found quickly)? but it disfavors some aspects of dogfighting, as i mentioned before.
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#107 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 19:46

Yes, it's good for quick dogfight practice. But it's really, really bad for situational awareness, and that is very important.
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#108 Gump

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 21:41

Yes, it's good for quick dogfight practice. But it's really, really bad for situational awareness, and that is very important.
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boy howdy, am i learning how that is true (in wargrounds). you're right about things becoming 'habit'… STILL, when i get into those multiplane dogfights in wargrounds, i find myself glancing around quickly looking for icon/text colors - and getting confounded when i quickly realize that all i'm seeing is a blur of unidentified planes!
…also, i sudddenly found that i had to recognize land features to communicate with teammates, since i couldn't spot activity from all the way across the map.
… not to mention the realization that i had to keep my head on a swivel to avoid getting bounced.
.
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anyways, i'd rather fly with no icons than without auto RM. however, i still enjoy the FC and AF activity. sometimes i don't have the time to fly the longer 'missions'. also, as i mentioned b4, many times AF is the only server (that i see) that has other players on it.
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thanks for the compliment, btw. this game takes longer than i expected to get decent at (many facets of skill involved), but i'm liking it. i can foresee the continual dogfight mode getting old, and devoting time to the other skills, too.
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when have i seen you on WG?
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#109 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 23:11

I was on comms with someone who shot you down a few times. He was in the middle of a 50something kill streak, so you didn't have much of a chance, but he said that you were doing very well. You just need to learn a little more about the strengths of the German aircraft.
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#110 The_Locksmith

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:05

:( sadly the population didn't seem to hot tonight. I was really looking forward to playing full real with icons to see how it went. I'm hoping it was not so populated because I was on a little later in the day. Hopefully people didn't get to discouraged from the changes. There is always tomorrow and the weekend! Positive thinking!!!
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#111 SeaW0lf

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:32

:( sadly the population didn't seem to hot tonight. I was really looking forward to playing full real with icons to see how it went. I'm hoping it was not so populated because I was on a little later in the day. Hopefully people didn't get to discouraged from the changes. There is always tomorrow and the weekend! Positive thinking!!!

I think that the peak hours for the server, likewise it was with Flying Circus, is afternoon and early evening at European time. Then it shifts for Wargrounds. So, I don't think people are avoiding it.

I for myself am enjoying the changes. I am even starting to like the idea of no icons – although it would be a pity to lose the matches in between the same planes. This is a feature that the devs could have implemented over the years, to mix different settings for each mission if possible. Especially to block weapon mods for specific missions. But yeah…
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#112 The_Locksmith

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:43

usually when i get out of work, aces falling would have at least 10 pilots in the server. this is from 6pm - 10ish Eastern time, im over in nj. I was just getting nervous that people were avoiding it, and thats the last thing we all want. Im all for the changes. But its hard to make everyone happy. (i wish i was good enough to play on war grounds), so the changes of this server would help get rid of the crutches that hold me back. ext. Icons, engine management, awareness, while still having a lot of fun.
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#113 SeaW0lf

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 03:20

usually when i get out of work, aces falling would have at least 10 pilots in the server. this is from 6pm - 10ish Eastern time, im over in nj. I was just getting nervous that people were avoiding it, and thats the last thing we all want. Im all for the changes. But its hard to make everyone happy. (i wish i was good enough to play on war grounds), so the changes of this server would help get rid of the crutches that hold me back. ext. Icons, engine management, awareness, while still having a lot of fun.

Maybe today it happened a little early. I got on the server at 4PM (your time) and left before 6PM and it had more than 20 players most of the time. But I agree that people don't like changes (I am talking about the end of Flying Circus, as it seems) and some people might be giving it a time. Hopefully in a couple months it will settle even better than before.

But you can go to Wargrounds, climb to 3.000m and pick a fight on your own terms. I admit that if you don't get a kill on the first bounce you have few chances to survive against a savvy opponent, but you gain experience with it. And the view is great :D In the beginning I would do that just for the fun of flying.
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#114 J2_Jakob

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:01

I've flown for a couple of hours yesterday and (despite there were only a few people online) it was good.

Gump: Surely icons don't force you to develop SA, but I'd say they just have to stay switched ON here. You named the reasons…

Funny thing is, that as the auto radiator/mixture setting is gone, a lot of white-smoking Fokkers DVIIFs has appeared. I guess people are flying with rads closed all the time… :lol:
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#115 ST_ami7b5

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:14


Funny thing is, that as the auto radiator/mixture setting is gone, a lot of white-smoking Fokkers DVIIFs has appeared. I guess people are flying with rads closed all the time… :lol:

A small problem is, that if you map the radiator to a lever, you have to move that lever at the start of EVERY mission/every respawn, because the game doesn't read its initial position at the start.
So when I look at my levers, I think the radiator is open, but it is not…
Happened to me couple of times.
Fortunately I check my 6 often, so I see the problem before it's too late.
Anyhow I have to improve my pre-flight check routine.
:D
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#116 J2_Jakob

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:35

A small problem is, that if you map the radiator to a lever, you have to move that lever at the start of EVERY mission/every respawn, because the game doesn't read the initial position at the start.

Yes, that could be true in some cases. I have no lever, my rad is mapped to two joystick buttons, so I keep it in mind and almost never forget to open it during takeoff. But as you're talking about it, my next DIY task is to tweak my old joystick, remove the stick itself and keep the pad with potentiometer for rad or mixture lever.
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#117 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:39

A small problem is, that if you map the radiator to a lever, you have to move that lever at the start of EVERY mission/every respawn, because the game doesn't read its initial position at the start.
So when I look at my levers, I think the radiator is open, but it is not…
Happened to me couple of times.
Fortunately I check my 6 often, so I see the problem before it's too late.
Anyhow I have to improve my pre-flight check routine.
:D

Which is a good thing, you need radiator closed to start the engine; if the game was reading levers people would be sitting on field hitting I key with radiators open from last flight. This is prominent in CloD which reads position you left levers in, you often airstart with throttle down and flaps deployed from last landing, or start on runway with running engine already on full throttle (and brakes on).
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#118 flapping-brown

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:04

i never like to look at my stats they are always pretty BAD!…..i fly to give others a big score lol
flapping brown

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#119 ST_ami7b5

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:33


Which is a good thing, you need radiator closed to start the engine; if the game was reading levers people would be sitting on field hitting I key with radiators open from last flight. This is prominent in CloD which reads position you left levers in, you often airstart with throttle down and flaps deployed from last landing, or start on runway with running engine already on full throttle (and brakes on).

OK, no prob with that ofc.
I have CloD (TF mod) also.

My Saitek 'levers' for radiator, mixture and prop-pitch (wwii)/altitude throttle (D7F)
Image
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#120 J2_Jakob

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:11

My Saitek 'levers' for radiator, mixture and prop-pitch (wwii)/altitude throttle (D7F)
Image

Yes, I salivated for a while when looking on this throttle quadrant few weeks ago, definitely going to buy it someday. Does it work stand-alone? No other Saitek thingy needed?
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