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What could PWCG learn from WOFF?


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#81 Trooper117

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 13:31

One of the main things for me that launches me into an immersive experience with WOFF, is that when I take off and go on patrol, I am usually accompanied by other aeroplanes that I can immediately identify because the game has over six thousand historically accurate skins (with add on skin pack) and I'm no longer flying with AI bots, but varied flight or squadron personnel that I have read about and researched.
Add that to the extremely good AI, and from the moment you get to the main screen with a great music score, period film clips etc, you are sucked straight into an aviators life during the First World War.
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#82 PatAWilson

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 15:53

So … a quick point … the thread is what can PWCG learn from WOFF and not what can RoF learn from WOFF (which IMHO would not be a bad topic in the General section). I can do something about the former but not the latter.

PWCG already supports individual skins for squadron members. I have it on the books to completely automate skin assignment, but you can already assign skins manually. The biggest issue is the number of skins. If I could get another 5000 skins then PWCG would have the same variety as WOFF. Anybody up for some skinning? :).. Smiling but really not joking - make them and I will host them and include them. Going through the 777 approval process is unnecessary. Just make them.

Within PWCG all of the menus are period related. The images are all WWI posters. The report formats are based on real WWI reports, which tended to be simple type written pages. I avoided the antique look on reports and log books because you are supposed to be in 1917. The paper and the book would be new, not 90 years old. Willing to take suggestions on how I could improve the PWCG interface.

Trying to get the music working. Matt wrote a great score but for some reason Java won't play it, so others have done their part and now it is on me to get it working.

I could probably find some public domain film clips and play them. Better yet, I could write the code to make them play and others could help me to find the clips :). That was something from RedBaron that was a nice touch.
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#83 HotTom

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 22:07

So … a quick point … the thread is what can PWCG learn from WOFF and not what can RoF learn from WOFF (which IMHO would not be a bad topic in the General section). I can do something about the former but not the latter.

PWCG already supports individual skins for squadron members. I have it on the books to completely automate skin assignment, but you can already assign skins manually. The biggest issue is the number of skins. If I could get another 5000 skins then PWCG would have the same variety as WOFF. Anybody up for some skinning? :).. Smiling but really not joking - make them and I will host them and include them. Going through the 777 approval process is unnecessary. Just make them.

Within PWCG all of the menus are period related. The images are all WWI posters. The report formats are based on real WWI reports, which tended to be simple type written pages. I avoided the antique look on reports and log books because you are supposed to be in 1917. The paper and the book would be new, not 90 years old. Willing to take suggestions on how I could improve the PWCG interface.

Trying to get the music working. Matt wrote a great score but for some reason Java won't play it, so others have done their part and now it is on me to get it working.

I could probably find some public domain film clips and play them. Better yet, I could write the code to make them play and others could help me to find the clips :). That was something from RedBaron that was a nice touch.

You mean historical films? I have tons bookmarked…
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#84 PatAWilson

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 22:23

Before I send anybody on a wild goose chase let me see if I can even do anything in PWCG.
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#85 Bucksnort

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 22:54

I have it on the books to completely automate skin assignment, but you can already assign skins manually.

Hi Pat,

I've been doing this by editing the .mission file with notepad. Is that what you're talking about or is there an easier way to assign skins manually I don't know about?

Thanks!
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#86 PatAWilson

PatAWilson
  • Posts: 3381

Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:10

I have it on the books to completely automate skin assignment, but you can already assign skins manually.

Hi Pat,

I've been doing this by editing the .mission file with notepad. Is that what you're talking about or is there an easier way to assign skins manually I don't know about?

Thanks!

Set the skin in the campaign file, under the pilot that you want to wear that skin. You can use a skin entry from the aces file as an example.
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#87 Dutch2

Dutch2
  • Posts: 4453

Posted 08 January 2014 - 18:49

Reading that Pat has difficulties in adding music in his Java software. Hope someone that knows how to do that does read this.

Hi Pat why not ask such a thing (=music) in a Java forum or the forum of the software your using.
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If I wrote something in this forum that is hurting or abuse a member, organisation or country? Let me know by pm for the corrections, please do not react back by bashing/trolling/flaming or other personal attacks!

Yep I’m an 2009 Rof pre-order buyer and one of the few that did buy the Sikorsky game.

#88 PatAWilson

PatAWilson
  • Posts: 3381

Posted 08 January 2014 - 18:58

There are lots of different ways to play sounds in Java, but many of them are proprietary and some cost money. I am looking for a generic way.

Last night I did it a different way that hopefully will allow for formats other than wav. Matt redid the music as an MP3 and I will try again tonight.
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#89 thedudeWG

thedudeWG
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Posted 08 January 2014 - 20:19

So,Pat …

If we had a .psd file (optimally one for each plane)full of generic-WWI-timey insignias/markings in their proper locations (on the plane's surface) with panel lines, shadows and weathering already applied, we could then paste these onto any RoF .dds skin and create a unique and generic squadron skin for use with any pilot within the squadron, correct? Then, if I understand correctly, this fictional squad member will always use this custom paint job?

If true, this is awesome and I'll definitely try to take advantage of this. Also, this would be a great opportunity for a community shared .psd file for these markings. Better yet, someone really clever might be able to create a program to create these skins once there is a master "personal markings" file … :?
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#90 PatAWilson

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 20:25

Right now it takes manual editing of the campaign file to permanently assign a skin to a squadron member. It has to be a fully completed DDS skin located in the RoF skins directory and not a PSD.

I know that you did a bunch of stuff for Jasta 7 and I would very much like to get those in if they are not already available.

777 has a process where the skin is submitted with screen shots and then included in a delivery. I do not need that process. Just make the skin and then I change a config file and the skin appears. Having said that, my system is not perfect and needs to be reworked a bit. It is that rework that will allow me to do the skin assignment automatically inside of PWCG and not force the user to edit files that could ruin his install.
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#91 thedudeWG

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 21:35

OK, maybe I'm thinking one step ahead. Here's what I see as a nice option if at all possible …

I, as the player, choose to play a squadron that already has a squadron skin (or several), but not a dozen different ones. No problem. I'll open my .psd file full of generic insignias (compiled over time by community members) and open the .dds file for the official default skin for my squadron, and copy and paste the insignias I want for my current (and future) fictional squad members. I'll then create an alternate version of the official squadron paint job, and do this for as many as I have or need. I'll add these fictional skins into my skins folder, and then assign them to any pilots I choose.

It would be easier than it sounds on the skin creation side, once the .psd files are created (one per plane), and these could be built up rather quickly with a little help from those in the community. I'm not talking about elaborate schemes or anything, but just simple shapes that help you identify various teammates within the game (stripes, letters, numbers, generic shapes, etc.).

The idea for this first occurred to me when I noticed the simplicity of the "unknowns" within my Jasta 7 line-up image. I have little interest in going through the process of creating a diagonal stripe, vertical stripe, "H", or "L" version of my default skins and getting them approved and implemented, but it wouldn't take me any time at all to create the symbols and have them available for anyone's use with any squadron's AD2, AD3, AD5 or PD3a files. That, to me, would seem more useful than just creating these skins for Jasta 7 and then sending them to you (which could still be done, as well). Think about any cool insignias we've seen from various fictional skin submissions that would fit into the correct theme and time period. I'm sure these authors can easily submit trimmed out layers of their work, … if at all interested in contributing to the big picture.

Attached File  Jasta 7 line up.jpg   143.94KB   278 downloads
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#92 PatAWilson

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 22:39



The idea for this first occurred to me when I noticed the simplicity of the "unknowns" within my Jasta 7 line-up image. I have little interest in going through the process of creating a diagonal stripe, vertical stripe, "H", or "L" version of my default skins and getting them approved and implemented, but it wouldn't take me any time at all to create the symbols and have them available for anyone's use with any squadron's AD2, AD3, AD5 or PD3a files. That, to me, would seem more useful than just creating these skins for Jasta 7 and then sending them to you (which could still be done, as well). Think about any cool insignias we've seen from various fictional skin submissions that would fit into the correct theme and time period. I'm sure these authors can easily submit trimmed out layers of their work, … if at all interested in contributing to the big picture.

I was thinking the same thing. I tend to fly Jasta 16b so that is what I am looking at. While some of the German pilots had some pretty wild markings many were really simple. A letter, a colored band, etc.

The skins on the PWCG web site that were made by myself and others are just that - just the skin. I handed them off to 777 for use as they saw fit but I did not do the whole approval process. That allowed me personally to create over 200 skins plus contributions from others. 200 sounds took some effort but there is room for 2000 or more.

The only down side to PWCG skins is
1. Needs mods on to run
2. No preview

For myself, I already play with mods on and I can live without the preview.
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#93 Barkhorn1x

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 00:01

For myself, I already play with mods on and I can live without the preview.

Me too!
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#94 Bucksnort

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:07

I have it on the books to completely automate skin assignment, but you can already assign skins manually.

Hi Pat,

I've been doing this by editing the .mission file with notepad. Is that what you're talking about or is there an easier way to assign skins manually I don't know about?

Thanks!

Set the skin in the campaign file, under the pilot that you want to wear that skin. You can use a skin entry from the aces file as an example.

Hi Pat,

This would be great as we wouldn't have to edit the .mission file for each mission. I tried the Aces file format but it didn't work. Could you help me with the syntax.

For any given pilot in the campaign file I'm starting here:

Skin
{
}

I tried this format from the Aces file:

Skin
{
Name = "AD2L_3camo_Late.dds";
Date = 01/01/1916;
}

but it didn't work. Then I dropped the Date line but that didn't help. Will try adding the folder name while I wait for an answer: Name = "AlbatrosD2Late\AD2L_3camo_Late.dds"; but if this doesn't work I'm out of ideas.

Thanks :)
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#95 rotagen

rotagen
  • Posts: 32

Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:09

This is sorta off-topic but not really.

Does anyone know if the newest/greatest OFF campaign has a nice variability to the missions? More to the point, are there some missions where I can see enemy planes right away and I don't have to keep using time compression during the long dull bits flying to waypoints?

Thinking of buying the payware version but I gotta admit I wasn't all that impressed with the early ones, it reeked of the terrible CFS3 platform.
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#96 J5_Corsaire

J5_Corsaire
  • Posts: 227

Posted 09 January 2014 - 10:32

Does anyone know if the newest/greatest OFF campaign has a nice variability to the missions? More to the point, are there some missions where I can see enemy planes right away and I don't have to keep using time compression during the long dull bits flying to waypoints

If this is what you are looking for, stay away from the campaign and fly Quick Combat.

OFF is made to recreate historical conditions, and it happened often (specially early war) that I flew many missions without seeing any enemy plane. What you call "long dull bits flying to waypoints" is for most players a great part of the immersion (not knowing what is going to happen and when and having to keep your eyes open all the time)
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#97 Bucksnort

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  • Posts: 384

Posted 09 January 2014 - 15:46

I have it on the books to completely automate skin assignment, but you can already assign skins manually.

Hi Pat,

I've been doing this by editing the .mission file with notepad. Is that what you're talking about or is there an easier way to assign skins manually I don't know about?

Thanks!

Set the skin in the campaign file, under the pilot that you want to wear that skin. You can use a skin entry from the aces file as an example.

Hi Pat,

This would be great as we wouldn't have to edit the .mission file for each mission. I tried the Aces file format but it didn't work. Could you help me with the syntax.

For any given pilot in the campaign file I'm starting here:

Skin
{
}

I tried this format from the Aces file:

Skin
{
Name = "AD2L_3camo_Late.dds";
Date = 01/01/1916;
}

but it didn't work. Then I dropped the Date line but that didn't help. Will try adding the folder name while I wait for an answer: Name = "AlbatrosD2Late\AD2L_3camo_Late.dds"; but if this doesn't work I'm out of ideas.

Thanks :)

Hi Pat,

Adding the folder name didn't help. Could you please show an example of what goes between the open and closed brackets?

Here is a skin example to use for an Albatros DII Late: AD2L_3camo_Late.dds

Skin
{
}

Thanks!
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#98 PatAWilson

PatAWilson
  • Posts: 3381

Posted 09 January 2014 - 16:18

Let me look at it tonight. Could be bugged as I have not had a look in forever and never really advertised this feature (and won't until it is automated). However, it should work exactly the same as an ace getting his skin, which is something that I know does work.
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#99 Bucksnort

Bucksnort
  • Posts: 384

Posted 09 January 2014 - 18:13

Let me look at it tonight. Could be bugged as I have not had a look in forever and never really advertised this feature (and won't until it is automated). However, it should work exactly the same as an ace getting his skin, which is something that I know does work.

Ok, Pat, if it's a pain then never mind…not trying to create more work. Just thought it might be something easy to start using :)
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#100 karnak

karnak
  • Posts: 59

Posted 19 January 2014 - 09:37

Woff starts in 1915. They got very much if not all Sqadrons and Historical Aces. This is something that i believe you could copy step by step if you want to. And if not PWCG is still great :)
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#101 Dutch2

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  • Posts: 4453

Posted 19 January 2014 - 11:46



The idea for this first occurred to me when I noticed the simplicity of the "unknowns" within my Jasta 7 line-up image. I have little interest in going through the process of creating a diagonal stripe, vertical stripe, "H", or "L" version of my default skins and getting them approved and implemented, but it wouldn't take me any time at all to create the symbols and have them available for anyone's use with any squadron's AD2, AD3, AD5 or PD3a files. That, to me, would seem more useful than just creating these skins for Jasta 7 and then sending them to you (which could still be done, as well). Think about any cool insignias we've seen from various fictional skin submissions that would fit into the correct theme and time period. I'm sure these authors can easily submit trimmed out layers of their work, … if at all interested in contributing to the big picture.

I was thinking the same thing. I tend to fly Jasta 16b so that is what I am looking at. While some of the German pilots had some pretty wild markings many were really simple. A letter, a colored band, etc.

The skins on the PWCG web site that were made by myself and others are just that - just the skin. I handed them off to 777 for use as they saw fit but I did not do the whole approval process. That allowed me personally to create over 200 skins plus contributions from others. 200 sounds took some effort but there is room for 2000 or more.

The only down side to PWCG skins is
1. Needs mods on to run
2. No preview

For myself, I already play with mods on and I can live without the preview.

Pat, because of that ridicules skin publish system here, I have lots of well made skins that have no pre-view, so for me it is ok.
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If I wrote something in this forum that is hurting or abuse a member, organisation or country? Let me know by pm for the corrections, please do not react back by bashing/trolling/flaming or other personal attacks!

Yep I’m an 2009 Rof pre-order buyer and one of the few that did buy the Sikorsky game.

#102 PatAWilson

PatAWilson
  • Posts: 3381

Posted 19 January 2014 - 16:43

Woff starts in 1915. They got very much if not all Sqadrons and Historical Aces. This is something that i believe you could copy step by step if you want to. And if not PWCG is still great :)

For 1915 I need planes, so not much that I can do about that.

As for aces, there are nearly 200 in PWCG. Every British and German ace with over 20 victories, any French or Belgian ace with over 12, and any American ace with over 8 is in. Skins for all or most of the aces would be nice.
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#103 Barkhorn1x

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  • Posts: 969

Posted 19 January 2014 - 17:09

Pat, because of that ridicules skin publish system here, I have lots of well made skins that have no pre-view, so for me it is ok.

Please package them up and send them to Pat.
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#104 Dutch2

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  • Posts: 4453

Posted 19 January 2014 - 20:50

Pat, because of that ridicules skin publish system here, I have lots of well made skins that have no pre-view, so for me it is ok.

Please package them up and send them to Pat.


I see no pm from Pat :D But I know that Panthercules does also have them.

But Barkhorn you know that I have no problems in sharing info, did I not sent you some info on jasta's. :roll:
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If I wrote something in this forum that is hurting or abuse a member, organisation or country? Let me know by pm for the corrections, please do not react back by bashing/trolling/flaming or other personal attacks!

Yep I’m an 2009 Rof pre-order buyer and one of the few that did buy the Sikorsky game.

#105 Celtic12

Celtic12
  • Posts: 3

Posted 20 January 2014 - 00:29

Hah well for my first post I'd like to say

1.) thanks and great job

2.) For my actual suggestion I think it would be awesome to have something akin to the training option from WOFF (make sure its optional of course) but that coupled with an "enlistment form" akin to what WOFF has would be a big step forward in immersion.
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#106 Barkhorn1x

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  • Posts: 969

Posted 20 January 2014 - 15:45

Pat, because of that ridicules skin publish system here, I have lots of well made skins that have no pre-view, so for me it is ok.

Please package them up and send them to Pat.


I see no pm from Pat :D But I know that Panthercules does also have them.

But Barkhorn you know that I have no problems in sharing info, did I not sent you some info on jasta's. :roll:

Yes you did. And I'm not being critical here. I just figured that Pat can use them for the benefit of all.
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#107 PatAWilson

PatAWilson
  • Posts: 3381

Posted 20 January 2014 - 16:36

Things are not completely formalized. If you have usable skins then zip them up and send them to me with a description of what each skin is (I don't want to guess).

The information that I need is:
1. The skin name
2. The plane the skin is for
3. Squadron (if any) that the skin is associated with.
4. Dates of use if applicable.
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#108 PatAWilson

PatAWilson
  • Posts: 3381

Posted 21 January 2014 - 22:09

Just read seven pages of the WOFF wish list and it makes me feel good that lots of the things that are wanted for WOFF are already in PWCG. So while we have a "what can PWCG learn from WOFF" their wish list has a lot of "what can WOFF learn from PWCG". Sorry … little church lady moment :).
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#109 karnak

karnak
  • Posts: 59

Posted 21 January 2014 - 22:22

You cant kill aces in WOFF :(
Thats something i realy like in PWCG and i hope someone will make a mod for WOFF about this :)
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#110 PatAWilson

PatAWilson
  • Posts: 3381

Posted 21 January 2014 - 23:21

See, maybe they do need a "what can WOFF learn from PWCG" thread :).

Being serious, if it's a competition then it's a friendly one. I view it more as learning than competition. I know some of the original OFF guys and they were RedBaron3D modders along with me so I wish them all the best. It's a small community so we need to cooperate as much as possible. Amazing to see the same people 15 years later.

I started this thread as a serious attempt to get feedback. It has succeeded and many of the things that have been mentioned are finding their way into PWCG. Looking at the comments on the WOFF forum, given how highly respected WOFF's campaign is, it's nice to see that there is plenty that PWCG gets right.
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#111 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 17:45

As for aces, there are nearly 200 in PWCG. Every British and German ace with over 20 victories, any French or Belgian ace with over 12, and any American ace with over 8 is in. Skins for all or most of the aces would be nice.
Didn't you forget the Canadian Aces? There's quite a few famous high-scorers to be sure, and apparently one may have even shot down MvR, but the debate is ongoing.

I hope you didn't fall into that "All that's British" colonial codswallop…

:lol:
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#112 karnak

karnak
  • Posts: 59

Posted 22 January 2014 - 18:38

You are right Pat. There are not enough WW1 flight sim fans or products to make a front between us. I realy love both sims but for RoF i have to say its only because of your generator.

And mayyyybeee you get bored and want to make a killable aces mod for WOFF ;)
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#113 PatAWilson

PatAWilson
  • Posts: 3381

Posted 22 January 2014 - 20:29

Hey, it's 1918. If you're Commonwealth, you're British … even if you aren't :)

I wonder if Canadians of 100 years ago wore maple leafs to tell people that they weren't British. Seeing how prominently it figures on WWI personal schemes, my guess is that they did.
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#114 Raine

Raine
  • Posts: 232

Posted 22 January 2014 - 21:15

Canadian soldiers in the Boer War wore a maple leaf badge on their pith helmets, and a Canadian soldier carved a maple leaf in the rock of a tunnel under Vimy Ridge that can still be seen. I don't think Canadians wearing maple leaves were as ubiquitous in the First World War as they are today, but they were there!
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#115 Lanzfeld

Lanzfeld
  • Posts: 582

Posted 01 February 2014 - 12:39

If your still looking at this Pat,

I would like longer missions. I am not sure if it is in there already but it would be cool to patrol the front for an hour and still have a chance to encounter other aircraft. See I like long recon missions. I like the navigation challenge.

While I don't want every mission to be air quake I would still like a chance to meet enemy after an hour. A nice balance between boring missions and encounters. Maybe I can adjust this in the settings already when I get to know them?

Random engine failures. (Not in the code I guess)

I would love to see my mates land.

WOFF AI. (dream)

A DONATE BUTTON!!!!
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#116 PatAWilson

PatAWilson
  • Posts: 3381

Posted 01 February 2014 - 15:43

Advanced Config -> Mission Limits -> Max Offensive Length will do something for offensive patrols. I will have to get back to you on others.

Can't do random engine failures.

I used to have AI landing but squadrons would exterminate themselves doing it.

Can't impact AI beyond the data.
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#117 Bucksnort

Bucksnort
  • Posts: 384

Posted 02 February 2014 - 06:59

If your still looking at this Pat,

I would like longer missions. I am not sure if it is in there already but it would be cool to patrol the front for an hour and still have a chance to encounter other aircraft. See I like long recon missions. I like the navigation challenge.

While I don't want every mission to be air quake I would still like a chance to meet enemy after an hour. A nice balance between boring missions and encounters. Maybe I can adjust this in the settings already when I get to know them?

Random engine failures. (Not in the code I guess)

I would love to see my mates land.

WOFF AI. (dream)

A DONATE BUTTON!!!!

Hi Lanzfeld,

Not exactly what you're asking for, but the Channel map has some long mission and navigation opportunities. With Gotha missions you can turn off the Navigation Icons in RoF->Settings and try to hit the British coastline on a bombing mission and then find your target. You will often meet fighter resistence over Britian also. Make sure and set the Weather to Level 0 for the Gothas as they can't handle the higher winds on take off.

And if you fly with British HD squads 39, 50 and 61 starting in May 1917 the missions over Britain will be Gotha intercepts, but the missions over the Channel can be anything. Pat just added all this stuff recently and I haven't even scratched the surface yet but I'm running into all kinds of different scenarios over the Channel. Also the same with W12 missions, and whenever you turn off Navigation Icons over the Channel in RoF it can be very challenging…I've gotten lost more than once :) There seems to be lots of stuff going on off the coast of Dunkirk and east of there in particular.

One time I took W12's out looking for the Felixstowe but ran into a flight of Bristols or Strutters (can't remember) and I held up pretty well against them. They finally broke off and I headed home with my squad only to see Spads closing on me and I'm thinking I'm dead. But moments later a flight of Albatros' showed up and engaged the Spads allowing my W12's to escape…it was a pretty epic coastal patrol and longer distance than the regular patrols.

Flying with a German Kest squad (starting in June 1917 I think) hunting the HP at night can be almost impossible if you turn off navigation icons in RoF. All you can hope for is to stay near the target area and pick them up in the search lights or watch for their bomb explosions as the search lights don't always pick them up.

The only downside is if you wander off your flight path too far you'll not pick up any contacts as like Pat said they are on set paths when the mission is generated. So getting lost usually means no contact.

Good luck :S!:
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#118 samba-liten

samba-liten
  • Posts: 42

Posted 06 May 2014 - 23:43

Sorry to necro this thread. I admit i haven't read through all 11 preceding pages, so i might be duplicating ideas here. For that, too, i apologize.

Anyway, here goes;
I'd love to see some form of pointer as to who is a historical ace. I must admit I'm not (yet) very familiar with many of them.

Also, when you open their records, it would be very nice to see a short bio of them. If needed, I'd be willing to do the (cut and paste) research for this myself.
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#119 PatAWilson

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  • Posts: 3381

Posted 06 May 2014 - 23:56

Sorry to necro this thread. I admit i haven't read through all 11 preceding pages, so i might be duplicating ideas here. For that, too, i apologize.

Anyway, here goes;
I'd love to see some form of pointer as to who is a historical ace. I must admit I'm not (yet) very familiar with many of them.

Also, when you open their records, it would be very nice to see a short bio of them. If needed, I'd be willing to do the (cut and paste) research for this myself.

Look at their log book. Quality is listed on the opening page. Historical aces are always ace quality. Fictional pilots become ace quality when they get 5 victories. It's not 100% since fictional pilots can achieve it, but the quality rating is a good indicator.
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