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lethality mod?


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#1 gavagai

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 21:27

Little fix so that balloons can still be destroyed with 7.7mm ammunition.

——————–

Cool. I figured out how to mod the lethality against wings and engines. I don't know exactly what does what yet, but I can definitely change things so that wings stop coming off so easily. The damage against engines and other components can also be reduced so that the tiniest burst no longer means a terminally damaged engine.

These adjustments have zero effect on the pilot, so it still takes 4 bullets to kill him. These adjustments could make it much more worthwhile to move in close and go for the meat.

Anyone interested in this after I adjust some more?

————-

You can give it a try now.

Attached Files


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#2 NakedSquirrel

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 23:06

Sounds great. 777 added the new fire rate, which is great, but the damage models are still the same from the original release.

Are you looking at individual plane files or just the ballistics .txt files?

It might help to fix some of the persisting DM problems with some of the aircraft, such as the weak rudder in the N17 or the weak wings of the Alb D2

((One problem I found with modifying plane files is that you have to 'buy' the modified plane to fly it.))

The bullet .txt files have an interesting category in them (I'm not sure what the annotation is, it was probably originally in Russian):

\GTP\(null)\luascripts\worldobjects\ballistics


// íà ðàññòîÿíèè 180ìåòðîâ ñêîðîñòü ñíàðÿäà 636.59ì/ñ
Armor1=180,590, 10,180, 5,220, 0,320
Armor2=300,520, 5,200, 0,240
Armor3=900,300, 0,140

I haven't really thought to play around with it, but if wings/engine/control surfaces could have a greater damage threshold and if bullets were given a wider variation of damage they inflict, it might give the illusion that bullets are randomly hitting spars vs fabric or bouncing off of the metal engine vs breaking cylinder heads. That would be a lot more immersive.

The only downside would be changing some of the ground objects damage thresholds so they aren't impossible to strafe and kill, which would be time consuming, but not at all impossible to do.
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#3 HotTom

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 23:53

Go for it!
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#4 Hellshade

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 23:57

Did someone say wings coming off a bit less easily? I would definately be interested in that. As it is currently modeled, it makes much more sense to go for the wings than it does to go for the engine or pilot. To my understanding, thats pretty much the exact opposite of how it was in the war. It would add considerably to the immersion if that got sorted out a bit. Thank you for looking into it.
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#5 gavagai

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 01:11

Yes Squirrel, those are the files I'm tinkering with. I will have to go through each parameter individually to see what it does. So far it seems like the first numbers in each sequence do something for engine damage, and some of the later ones affects wings and other surfaces. Maybe there are some that are for ground targets, but I wouldn't cry if I could no longer blow up tanks and trains with light machine gun fire. I will see tomorrow.
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#6 Spag

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 01:48

Hello gavagai,
Sounds great, I'll be there.
Cheers,
Spag. :)
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Bite off more than you can chew.

Then chew like Hell ! ! !


#7 Blade_meister

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 03:26

I am very interested as it would be nice to have an engine need to be heavily shot up before it lets go of its oil. Right now IMHO it is to easy to hit an engine and severely damage it, i.e. oiled goggles. I will help test if you need it Gav.

S!Blade<><
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#8 Proccy

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 04:19

Yes please tried of the glass engines and flimsy wings on these things
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Lieut. (A./Capt.) Andrew Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C., No. 84 Sqn., R.A. Force.


#9 SYN_Adamfp3

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:39

I would definitely be interested in this :S!:
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#10 Spag

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 09:20

I am very interested as it would be nice to have an engine need to be heavily shot up before it lets go of its oil. Right now IMHO it is to easy to hit an engine and severely damage it, i.e. oiled goggles. I will help test if you need it Gav.

S!Blade<><

Hello Blade_meister,

Do you have the 'oil splatter' mod enabled?.
It is much easier to live with.
http://www.mediafire...dl3spmf0hdymku8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mediafire...dl3spmf0hdymku8

Cheers,
Spag. :)
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Bite off more than you can chew.

Then chew like Hell ! ! !


#11 gavagai

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:28

Ok, have any of you tried the reduced rate of fire mod I made? This lethality experiment is largely in reaction to the very small benefit gained with reducing the rates of fire back to pre 1.026 rates. For example, even with the Spandaus set to 440rpm, small snap shots almost always cause my target's engine to take visible damage, and taking off wings is still very easy.

In my opinion, the best solution is to combine reduced rates of fire–and there is very good evidence to support them–with a reduction in lethality. It would be equally weird to fire the miniguns we have now and not see any effect.
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#12 Spag

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:40

Let me get this straight.
You want me to fire less bullets at the enemy? :o
Cheers,
Spag. :)
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Bite off more than you can chew.

Then chew like Hell ! ! !


#13 gavagai

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:52

Cheers Spag,

I didn't know the Fokker E.III was armed with one of these:

Image
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#14 Hellshade

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 13:23

Image

If that's in the 777 store for mod add ons to the EIII, I need to head over there right away. :x
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#15 Spag

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 13:26

That's a Gatling.
Why?

Cheers,
Spag. :)
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Bite off more than you can chew.

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#16 gavagai

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 16:18

Ok, in the OP there is a mod you can test out. It includes the reduced rate of fire I mentioned before, but reduces by half all of the damage arguments you an find in the ballistics files.

I tested out each parameter individually by setting them all to zero, except for one which I would set to "100." Then I loaded up a quick mission and shot up a friendly. I was very surprised to learn that the parameters are interdependent. There is no single one that damages fabric or wood, for example. It is the combination of the different settings that makes the difference, which means that I have almost nothing to go on without knowing more about what they do.

Another thing, even with everything set to zero except for one parameter at 100, oil and coolant take damage easily. There is very little I can do to prevent that. Even when shooting at aircraft like the SE5a and Fokker D.VII, with their front-mounted radiators, those are the first things to go.

Anyway, please try this out, and tell me what your experiences.
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#17 Hellshade

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 16:24

That's a Gatling.
Why?

Cheers,
Spag. :)


Because then the guns would be about as balanced as the FMs. :mrgreen:
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#18 Hellshade

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:13

Ok, in the OP there is a mod you can test out. It includes the reduced rate of fire I mentioned before, but reduces by half all of the damage arguments you an find in the ballistics files.

Anyway, please try this out, and tell me what your experiences.

From my personal perspective, it's a vast improvement when fighting against pups, SE5as and Sopwith Triplanes. Each of those had become far too easy to shoot down just by scoring a few hits on the wings. They would just melt like butter before. Now for best results, I need to aim for the engine or the pilot.

I only had one Sopwith triplane shed all of it's wings during multiple Quick Combat sessions. The rest of the time I either killed the pilot, shot out the engine or set the fellow on fire. Combat seems to last longer and the fights, IMHO, are better for it. Most of the kills required multiple passes unless I just got lucky and took out the pilot. Much appreciated sir.
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#19 gavagai

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 19:48

Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to try it out now against the deadly gunners in my AI gunner mod. I'm curious to know whether these adjustments might favor scouts or two seaters.
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#20 NakedSquirrel

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 20:54

Hmn, I wonder where the damage variables for individual aircraft parts are. It's obviously different for each plane. The Pup's wings shed with a short squeeze, while the B14 can take a full 500 round belt. I'd assume radiator/fuel/ect are hidden wherever those variables are.

The fire rates in game are probably close. The muzzle boosters definitely existed, and head spacing was definitely tweaked to increase the fire rate of the guns. It's bad for the weapon, but you have to consider that they weren't shooting thousands of rounds like a MG on the ground. The largest ammo belt any single gun carried is 500 rounds.

I've seen pictures of spandau machine guns with different head spacing settings. I'm not sure if the logic behind it was to reduce jamming, but that would be my guess since the guns were prone to jam due to g forces and the fabric ammo belts.

The only problem with the fire rate currently is that it's the max theoretical fire rate, and we don't have hard jams that take time to clear. I'd find it hard to believe that they went full tilt with every gun's fire rate. There was most likely a range of fire rates. It would be a neat feature if you could set the fire rate of your weapons in the load out menu, and just add hard jams to the equation, but I doubt we'll see additions like that any time soon.
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#21 gavagai

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 21:47

Yeah, that would be great. My wish would be for an adjustable rate of fire to be linked to the frequency and severity of jams.

Dave Watts from the aerodrome.com deduced the Spandau rate of fire from the gear box of a Mercedes D.IIIau engine. He came up with 440rpm, which is the same as what Boelcke was using in 1916. Bletchley also indicates that the "booster" for Spandau only increased reliability; it did not increase the rate of fire. This goes back to the point that the Germans were still using fabric belts in 1918.

As for the boosted Vickers, I'm still not sure what is "correct" for Rise of Flight. Army Air Force documents indicate a setting of 800rpm, compared to 750rpm in Rise of Flight. But then Michael Williams (another authority) says the actual rate of fire with an 800rpm setting was much lower. How much lower then? I have no idea.

The mod here uses the following adjustments:

Spandau 440rpm
Vickers 450rpm
boosted Vickers 600rpm (still sounds like a minigun)
balloon gun Vickers 450rpm (a guess out of thin air)
Parabellum 650rpm (default is 700rpm)
Lewis 550rpm (unchanged)

With a little bit more testing I like this mod so far. I have to aim for the engine and pilot if I want success, and that means I have to get in close. Long distance shooting becomes a real waste of time. Fortunately, the chance of a wing or other aircraft part hitting you in the face is drastically reduced. Sometimes in default Rise of Flight I feel like there's a debris penalty against those who try to do it the historical way: point blank range. It is still possible to shoot off a wing, though, just much more difficult.

The mod also works well with my AI gunner mod. You can use your engine as a bit of a shield while you aim at the gunner, and you will take hits without instantaneous critical damage. The dangerous thing is being in the gunner's field of fire without the engine between you and him, which means a high risk of being wounded.
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#22 J.j.

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 22:05

balloon gun Vickers 450rpm (a guess out of thin air)

No guesssing, this rof is mentionned in Luke's Army Air Force document.
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#23 gavagai

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 22:12

Oh yeah, that's where I got that number! :mrgreen:
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#24 JoeCrow

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 22:35

Here's a clue about Lewis gun jams from the first attempts at mounting a machine gun to 2-seaters, fired at an angle to clear the prop by the pilot (S. S. Saunders, April 1915).

'We had a lot of problems with the Lewis gun jamming in the air and we couldn't understand why. First of all, we found that they kept getting stuck until the first half-dozen rounds had gone. so we decided to put in fewer rounds which improved the situation but the gun carried on stopping. Then the information went around that if you fired three or four rounds every quarter of an hour the gun stopped sticking but we couldn't understand why this helped. We found out the problem by accident. One of the riggers happened to send a gun up in an aircraft without oiling it. The gun didn't stick, which started us thinking and we worked out that the oil we were using on the working parts was freezing up in the air but there was no indication of this by the time we landed. By then it had thawed out'.
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#25 -Requiem-

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 01:12

Very interesting to read this thread, thanks for making this Gav! I'll report back on Tuesday when I have some time to play around with it.
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#26 Hellshade

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:27

I've been having a real blast flying a DIIt with Jasta 7 in PWCG. Between the Rate of Fire / Lethality mod and PWCG 14.2 changes where the AI will try and break off from a fight for various reasons (too much damage, pilot wounded, out of ammo, etc) the single player campaign has gotten to be a really good experience.

Fights seem to stay higher longer. Wings don't melt like butter. Fights aren't always to the death as some try to escape while their wingmen keep battling. I can actually get close up to hammer some rounds into a sopwith pup without worrying that the wings will suddenly fly off and take out my prop.

Thanks to all of the modders who are helping to improve RoF. It wouldn't be nearly as good an experience without your efforts. Thank you.
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#27 gavagai

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:58

You're welcome hellshades. I also tried out a 14.2 mission last night and was really impressed to see an injured aircraft dive away from the fight.
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#28 steppenwolf_

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:35

Any idea if bullets can be set to penetrate multiple surfaces(e.g., fuselage around crew) from these parameters?
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#29 J.j.

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 19:45

How about tweaked files for the balloon guns? Maybe more "incendiary" damage and less "destructive" damage? Is that possible?

EDIT: also this mod is conflicting with the "reduced tracers" mod.
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#30 gwalch

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 20:44

Thank you.
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#31 gavagai

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 21:09

How about tweaked files for the balloon guns? Maybe more "incendiary" damage and less "destructive" damage? Is that possible?

EDIT: also this mod is conflicting with the "reduced tracers" mod.

Yes J.j. It is not possible to make them separate.

I have already adjusted the balloon guns down for the next version, but I don't know yet how to make them more incendiary.
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#32 Chill31

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:19

tagged for later reading
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#33 -Requiem-

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 14:46

I played around with the mod since I got up this morning and I really like it. Wings are still able to be shot off, but it takes a lot more effort, to the point where your time is better spent aiming at the pilot and engine (as it should be). I checked how it worked with weaker winged aircraft such as the Dolphin and even then it still took a good amount of time to shoot off the wings. The AI seemed more likely to rip off a damaged wing due to a stressful maneuver than me shooting it off sometimes.

One beneficial side effect I noticed with the reduced lethality is that it displays the damage model a lot more. Meaning that the damage appears on the aircraft much more gradually than normal, whereas without the mod aircraft sometimes just disintegrate after firing.

I don't know if this is a parameter that can be changed, but the engine mounts are really weak, especially on the Felixstowe. Unfortunately, it still only takes a few bullets to cause the engine to fall off and take the wing with it. I also spent some time shooting at the bombers and I spent a lot of ammo on them which was good as well.

I think it would be interesting to have a mods on server with this so we could how it effects MP. A couple of scenarios that I think would benefit from this mod are the Twin Vickers Sop Tripe vs Albatros, and Albatros vs Sop Pup. I could host a server to test this but my connection doesn't seem to like more than 6 people, but if that's something you would like to try let me know.

The mod is limited by constraints out of your control, but its still good work!
:S!:
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#34 HotTom

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 15:46

Gav, downloaded it and am looking forward to trying it. My dance card is full today so Wed is more likely.

I suggest you make note in the OP that it contains the older rate of fire mod. I know you say that in Post #6 but it would be good to know at the place where it is downloaded.

Thanks!
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#35 Sabre

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 17:09

gava, is this mod in conflict with the refined package?

Thanks,
Sabre.
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#36 Der.Mo

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 19:27

A mod like this was overdue!! Thank you very much Gav!
Looking forward to this!
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#37 gavagai

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 22:35

It is included in "RoF Refined."
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#38 J.j.

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 16:41

I was thinking, does the mod affect the capacity of machine guns to pierce armor?
Just asking, because I was just reflying the Udet vs tank mission in the Du doch nicht campaign, and I wasn't able anymore to destroy the Whippet tank. But maybe some other things have changed in ROF since the last time I played this mission?
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#39 gavagai

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 22:13

It probably does, J.j. Thanks for the report.
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#40 Spag

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 00:08

I was thinking, does the mod affect the capacity of machine guns to pierce armor?
Just asking, because I was just reflying the Udet vs tank mission in the Du doch nicht campaign, and I wasn't able anymore to destroy the Whippet tank. But maybe some other things have changed in ROF since the last time I played this mission?

I am having trouble busting balloons too!
I poured over 200 rounds into one the other day and it would not catch fire.
Is anyone else having trouble with balloon busting since the mod??

It has happened previously since installing the mod, but I was putting it down to my wayward accuracy.
That could still be the case, but I haven't been able to bust a single balloon, out of about six attempts since the mod.
Great mod otherwise.

Cheers,
Spag. :)
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Bite off more than you can chew.

Then chew like Hell ! ! !



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