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Reduced rate of fire mod


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#1 gavagai

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 18:20

Hi everyone,

Here is a mod that reduces the rate of fire of the Vickers, boosted Vickers, Spandau, and Parabellum machine guns. Some of us want to try this because we have read that pilots did not set their guns to fire at the maximum rate (in order to prevent jams). It also seems prudent because nothing was done to strengthen airframes or engines with 1.026, when firepower was dramatically increased for most scouts.

Just put it in your jsgme folder and enable it as normal. Make sure to select mods on.

Here are the changes:
boosted Vickers: was 750rpm, now 550rpm
Spandau: was 650rpm, now 450rpm
Vickers: was 500rpm, now 450rpm
Parabellum: was 700rpm, now 650rpm
Lewis gun remains at 550rpm.

Attached Files


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#2 J.j.

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 18:40

Well, in your files there are defintively two types of Spandau, and also two types of Lewis. What are lmg_08_15_f.txt and lewis_inv.txt?
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#3 gavagai

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 18:48

Yes, but none of the German scouts use the spandau file marked "f." (I looked at many of them)

The other file is for an inverted Lewis gun. Is that on the dolphin weapon mod?

I have included all of the files that ungtp'd, but I haven't necessarily adjusted all of them.
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#4 J.j.

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 18:51

Ok. Strange though that the lmg08f file is not used!
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#5 gavagai

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 18:54

At least, I haven't found the aircraft that uses it. I will keep looking. Tell me if you find a German scout that doesn't have its rate of fire impacted by the mod.
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#6 Panthercules

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 20:11

At least, I haven't found the aircraft that uses it. I will keep looking. Tell me if you find a German scout that doesn't have its rate of fire impacted by the mod.


Just curious - is it that hard to change the rate in these files? Why not just go ahead and adjust all the files? That way, you won't have to worry about maybe missing some (and if they're not used, presumably the adjustment won't hurt anything).
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#7 gavagai

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 20:17

Sure panthercules, will do. It is very easy to mod these files. Part of the reason why I left it was to see if I could find out where the file is used. This is a test, after all, not a finished mod.
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#8 hq_Jorri

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 20:24

Nice one!

Did you check the Fokker E.III for the mystery spandau?
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#9 gavagai

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 20:25

Yes, it doesn't have it.

———–

Ah, found it. It's there for the Roland, W12, and Halberstadt D2.
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#10 gavagai

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 20:37

Updated the file so that the "f" spandau has the same rate of fire as the other one. The only difference between them is that the "f" weighs 13kg. I guess that's because these newer aircraft do not include the weapon mass in the aircraft components.
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#11 HotTom

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 20:40

Hi everyone,

Here is a mod that reduces the rate of fire of the Vickers, boosted Vickers, Spandau, and Parabellum machine guns. Some of us want to try this because we have read that pilots did not set their guns to fire at the maximum rate (in order to prevent jams). It also seems prudent because nothing was done to strengthen airframes or engines with 1.026, when firepower was dramatically increased for most scouts.

Just put it in your jsgme folder and enable it as normal. Make sure to select mods on.

Here are the changes:
boosted Vickers: was 750rpm, now 550rpm
Spandau: was 650rpm, now 450rpm
Vickers: was 500rpm, now 450rpm
Parabellum: was 700rpm, now 650rpm
Lewis gun remains at 550rpm.

Cyclic rates have nothing to do with jams. Why would they?

Jams were caused by primers that didn't ignite and shell casings that burst and insufficient powder in the casing, mostly due to poor quality control resulting from the huge number of rifle-caliber rounds manufactured every day in WWI and a bit of greed by the contractors.

Bad primers (British ammunition particularly has very hard primers, it takes a really good whack from the firing pin to ignite them) were the main reason and, in that respect, the simple manual recycling of the action was a quick and easy cure, which RoF models quite well.

Rate of fire had nothing to do with it.

I'll still try your mod, though. :mrgreen:
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#12 gavagai

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 21:03

Ok, help me out here then. Why did Boelcke have his Spandaus set to 440rpm even though they could be set much higher?
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#13 HotTom

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 21:16

I dunno. Could be all kinds of reasons: Conserve ammo, minimize vibrations (more accurate and less parts falling off).

Email him and ask. :mrgreen:
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#14 J.j.

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 21:20

Yes, it doesn't have it.

———–

Ah, found it. It's there for the Roland, W12, and Halberstadt D2.

Sounds like the early Spandau, W.12 and Marine units used an early version of the Spandau. It is strange the E III doesn't have it.
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#15 gavagai

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 21:30

By default the only difference is that the regular spandau weighs 0.01kg, and the "f" weighs 13kg.
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#16 hq_Jorri

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 21:40

Those three planes were developed later than the E.III, that could be related to it.
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#17 gavagai

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 21:41

Yes, I think it's because the sim has become more modular. Rather than including the weapons in a total mass, the weapons are separate objects with their own mass and drag properties.
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#18 Panthercules

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 22:22

Cyclic rates have nothing to do with jams. Why would they?

I can understand why certain kinds of problems (like the types of jams/misfires you mention) wouldn't seem likely to be affected by the attempted rate of fire. And I don't have any practical experience with belt-fed MGs, so I'm just speculating here. However, from a purely logical perspective I can imagine a number of reasons why higher cyclic rates might tend to increase the occurrence of certain types of "jams"/feed problems. I would think that just the mechanical process of trying to run those loaded-into-the-belt(or drum)-by-hand rounds through the gun mechanism at higher speeds/rates would magnify any little imperfection in the ammo feed system and be likely to result in a potentially higher failure rate (i.e., jams or whatever you want to call them).

In any event, regardless of the theoretical basis (or lack thereof) for this potential concern, if there is actual historical evidence for an operational rate of fire that is significantly lower than the maximums reflected in the current RoF setup, it would be nice to be able to implement that lower rate via a mod like this, so I appreciate gav's efforts and I'm looking forward to trying it out.
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#19 HotTom

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 22:26

That's all very lovely, Panther, but I am going back to Gav's rationale for making this mod: "Some of us want to try this because we have read that pilots did not set their guns to fire at the maximum rate (in order to prevent jams)."

He uses bureaucratic doublespeak just like you do. :mrgreen:

Who is "us" and who is "we"? And was the real reason preventing jams? Who says so?

Oh, and the belts weren't hand-loaded, they had a machine that did it. I used to own one of these M1918 Belt Loaders (stillused in WWII) back in my MG days: http://www.gunpartsc...30Cal-37176.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.gunpartsc...com/Manufacture … -37176.htm

Lewis guns had a loading machine, too: http://www.ima-usa.c...ine-loader.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.ima-usa.c...ation/british-m … oader.html

:S!:

HT
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#20 gavagai

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 23:00

HT, there's also the issue of the damage model not being adjusted at all with 1.026. Weren't you impressed with the "awesome firepower" after 1.026?

This mod also reduces the ridiculous firepower advantage that the German scouts have in the early war period. By default the 2xSpandaus can fire up to 1300 rpm, compared to the 500 rpm of an Entente scout, a factor of 2.6, not 2!
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#21 HotTom

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 23:22

THAT sold me as I always fly Allied (not Entente :mrgreen: ) and I usually fly in 1916. :S!:
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#22 Gadfly21

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 23:48

Downloaded.

BTW Gav, there is a mod (perhaps it was in your mod compilation) that reduces pilot hit count to 2.
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#23 gavagai

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 23:55

Yeah, that is old and it no longer works. I removed it from the mod compilation a long time ago.

Maybe I should try again?
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#24 Panthercules

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 00:39

Oh, and the belts weren't hand-loaded, they had a machine that did it. I used to own one of these M1918 Belt Loaders (stillused in WWII) back in my MG days: http://www.gunpartsc...30Cal-37176.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.gunpartsc...com/Manufacture … -37176.htm

Lewis guns had a loading machine, too: http://www.ima-usa.c...ine-loader.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.ima-usa.c...ation/british-m … oader.html

:S!:

HT


Cool - nice to learn something new every day :)

I thought I remembered reading something about pilots sometimes loading up their own belts (or at least checking the work of their ground crew in loading their belts), and it made it sound like they were being done by hand, but using a machine certainly makes more sense given the vast numbers of MGs in service at the time (both on the ground and in the air) and thus the massive number of ammo belts needed to feed them.
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#25 gavagai

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 12:09

There are anecdotes with some pilots checking over their belts, e.g. MvR. If it takes 800 rounds to bring down a target you don't want malfunctions!

—————–

So, any reactions to this mod? So far I like it. It takes significantly longer to down a target most of the time. Sometimes I fire on target and don't see any visible result (sound familiar?). I am still happy that we got the 1.026 update, but the miniguns it delivered were not what I had in mind. Slowing down these weapons to pre 1.026 speeds allows us to finally see the effect of greater dispersion without a higher rate of fire confounding the result.
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#26 Hellshade

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 12:42

HT, there's also the issue of the damage model not being adjusted at all with 1.026. Weren't you impressed with the "awesome firepower" after 1.026?

This mod also reduces the ridiculous firepower advantage that the German scouts have in the early war period. By default the 2xSpandaus can fire up to 1300 rpm, compared to the 500 rpm of an Entente scout, a factor of 2.6, not 2!

Historically accurate or not, it would make dogfights a bit more challenging and therefore, IMHO, rewarding if I couldn't just make a single quick pass in my Alb DIIt and saw the wings off of a pup with alarming regularity.

Last night I toasted 3 pups in three quick, successive passes. Every one of them had their wings disintegrate with just a quick burst. It's like the poor pups have a sign and a dotted line on their wings that says "Please cut here with Spandau scissors". ——–
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#27 Hellshade

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 12:47

There are anecdotes with some pilots checking over their belts, e.g. MvR. If it takes 800 rounds to bring down a target you don't want malfunctions!

If it took MvR 800 rounds to bring down a target, clearly someone needs to tell him to upgrade to patch 1.026. Problem solved. :mrgreen:
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#28 J.j.

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 13:21

https://combatace.co...-jsgme-enable/ 

Some very interesting infos also, from guys modding OFF.


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#29 J.j.

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 13:39

Here maybe my suggestions:

boosted Vickers: was 750rpm, now 800rpm
Spandau: was 650rpm, now 450rpm
Vickers: was 500rpm, now 450rpm
Parabellum: was 700rpm, now 650rpm
Lewis gun remains at 550rpm.
Ballon gun: was 600rpm, tune it down to 550 rpm.

About boosted Vickers, nearly all infos I found on the Haelton device state a rate of fire of 850 rpm. I have no idea where the 750rpm figure of ROF 1.026 patch comes from.
Of course I understand this will make some teeths to crinke, especially from German pilots. :mrgreen:
But if you found evidence of less than 850 rpm, then post it!

Vickers 11mm seems to have work from 500 to 600rpm, so median value of 550 is maybe good.
For Spandau this is problematic, we have conflicted infos.
I think it is great to have equal ROF for early Vickers and Spandau (pre-summer 1917), but I thin an option to have Spandau rate of fire fired up a bit for 1918 could be good, let's say 525 rpm? (median values between 450 and 600rpm, which to have been max rate of fire of aerial Spandaus to avoid jams or stoppages)
So a JSMGE option for an "early" and "late" Spandau could be good, just my opinion.
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#30 2Lt_Joch

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 13:45

nice find J.j., especially post #14 by Bletchley:

The Lewis gun Mk.I had a rof of 550 rpm, increased to the higher rate of around 700 rpm with the introduction of the Mk.II and Mk.III in May 1918.

The Vickers and the Maxim (Spandau) had a reliable rof of around 450 rpm when used with fabric belts in the air. The earliest mechanical synchronisation gears used by both the Germans (Fokker and Albatros types) and the British and French reduced this to around 350 rpm. The introduction of an improved Fokker type with the Albatros D.III or D.V (not quite sure of the exact date) then raised this back up to 450 rpm, but the introduction of a muzzle booster seems to have only improved the reliability of the Maxim and not increased the rate of fire. The limiting factor here appears to have been the continued reliance on fabric belts that would become stiff when cold and wet, and would not reliably support a higher rate of fire. The Germans were the first to introduce the metal disintegrating link belt to replace the canvas belt, but they do not appear to have had access to the right quantity or type of hard alloy to provide a stiff enough belt that would work reliably in the air, and after initial experimental use in the Fokker E.III they went back to using canvas belts.

The British introduced the Constantinesco synchronising gear in March 1917, a big improvement on earlier gears as it did not rely on a mechanical linkage and did not therefore limit the rate of fire by engine speed. This appears to have raised the rof of the Vickers to around 450-500 rpm, still limited by the use of a canvas belt. The first metal disintegrating links appear to have been the Sangster links introduced for land use in January 1916, but not in great numbers, and the Myers Mk.I or "MS" belt for air use in July 1916. These early links, however, suffered from the same problem with the metal alloy as the German type and were therefore rejected for air use, with Col. Sefton Brancker reporting to Trenchard that "the articulated belt is made of too soft a metal and the clips are subsequently jamming". It was only with the Prideaux link first developed in December 1916 that a hard enough alloy was used, and not until October 1917 with the Mk.III version that a good enough design for reliable air use meant that a higher rate of fire could be supported. The introduction of the Hazelton muzzle booster in May 1917 then raised the Vickers rof to 1000 rpm in land use, and it was the combination of the Constantinesco synch. gear and Prideaux links already in use that meant this could then be exploited to raise the Vickers rof to 850 rpm for air use (reduced from 1000 rpm to reduce jams and stoppages) in October 1917. This also appears to have been the time that the ammunition load for the synchrionised twin-Vickers used on the Sopwith Camel went from 250 rounds per gun (2 x 250 round canvas belts) to 500 rounds per gun (2 x 500 round Prideaux link belts), just in time for a change of role for the Camel to ground strafing and attack support.

Bletchley

On the German Spandaus, Dave Watts had posted that some pilots would set the ROF of one gun higher than the other to increase the overall ROF:

Something of possible interest is while Langdon Badger and I were discussing a particular Dr.I, Langdon said the left gun had the R.o.F. indicator tab lining up with the gun seam (420 R.o.F.), whereas the right gun appeared to be set at a higher R.o.F. A thought came to me which I expressed to Langdon that the pilot could select to have the left gun set at a lower more reliable R.o.F. and have the right gun set at a higher R.o.F. so if it does stop operating due to a weakly charged round he could use his right hand, (being right-handed), to quickly reach up and recharge the gun and continue firing. The left gun would be more difficult to recharge for a right-handed person in a bulky flying suit. The end result would be a potential higher R.o.F. for the pilot.

(post 14)

www.theaerodrome.com/forum/aircraft/41918-synchronized-rate-fire-reality-urban-legends-
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#31 unreasonable

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 14:00

Thanks for this mod - I have just converted my Jasta 2 B career DiD pilot to the new rate of fire on the Alb DII, and overall he likes it, even if he is now spending 3 days in hospital after underestimating an FE!

If you are just giving a quick squirt to drive an opponent down you waste less ammo, while if you have a good firing position the new rof is still sufficient to do the job. It somehow sounds better too!

btw: have just come back to give Rise of Flight another go after leaving it aside for 2 years due to my initial disappointment with the single player experience, and I am impressed by how much it has improved. Mods like this help, even if it is partly placebo effect.
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#32 Hellshade

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 14:07

btw: have just come back to give Rise of Flight another go after leaving it aside for 2 years due to my initial disappointment with the single player experience, and I am impressed by how much it has improved. Mods like this help, even if it is partly placebo effect.

If you haven't already, I highly recommend Pat Wilsons Campaign Generator. I believe it's up to version 14.1. Career mode is in permanent beta, but PWCG has been coming along nicely.
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#33 unreasonable

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 15:01

Thanks for tip Hellshade: I will PWCG a try, for my next career. (I am up to about 20 hours now, do not want to abandon ship…)
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#34 gavagai

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 16:37

Here maybe my suggestions:

boosted Vickers: was 750rpm, now 800rpm
Spandau: was 650rpm, now 450rpm
Vickers: was 500rpm, now 450rpm
Parabellum: was 700rpm, now 650rpm
Lewis gun remains at 550rpm.
Ballon gun: was 600rpm, tune it down to 550 rpm.

About boosted Vickers, nearly all infos I found on the Haelton device state a rate of fire of 850 rpm. I have no idea where the 750rpm figure of ROF 1.026 patch comes from.
Of course I understand this will make some teeths to crinke, especially from German pilots. :mrgreen:
But if you found evidence of less than 850 rpm, then post it!

Vickers 11mm seems to have work from 500 to 600rpm, so median value of 550 is maybe good.
For Spandau this is problematic, we have conflicted infos.
I think it is great to have equal ROF for early Vickers and Spandau (pre-summer 1917), but I thin an option to have Spandau rate of fire fired up a bit for 1918 could be good, let's say 525 rpm? (median values between 450 and 600rpm, which to have been max rate of fire of aerial Spandaus to avoid jams or stoppages)
So a JSMGE option for an "early" and "late" Spandau could be good, just my opinion.

Hi J.j.,

I'm really looking for a primary source that backs up rate of fire for the boosted vickers on an aircraft. All of these weapons could be set to fire very quickly, but so far the evidence I've seen says that the rate was typically decreased for use on an aircraft.

So, we have the 440rpm figure from Boelcke. I'm yet to see a corresponding statement from a British of French pilot. Does anyone have one?
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#35 J.j.

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 18:15

Just to check… We plan to use it in our historic coops, I guess this mod is like all AI mod, depending on the settings of the server?

I mean, normally only the server has to install it, then it "forces" all other players to have the reduce rates of fire?
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#36 LukeFF

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 19:14

US Army Ordnance Pamphlet, from November 1918. The full document is somewhere on Google Books:


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#37 J.j.

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 19:17

Well, 800 rpm for increased Vickers!
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#38 HotTom

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 19:47

They put those boosters on for a reason!

Thanks for doing the research, Gav! :S!:
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#39 gavagai

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 20:25

Thank LukeFF. That's going to be a serious firepower advantage, but if that's how it was, then that's how it was. I'll update the mod when I get home tonight.
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#40 2Lt_Joch

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 20:42

Well that resolves the Allied side, although it looks like the "boosted" rate would only apply after oct. 1917.

There seems to be a lot less info on the German side (what else is new :roll: ). For example, I find it hard to believe that they were using cloth ammo belts all the way to the end of the war? Second, I have also seen references to a "booster" being used by the Germans, although I have not seen any info on performance.

As far as I can tell, the Vickers and the Spandau were both improved versions of the Maxim and both shared the same basic design, so the "booster" should have worked as well on the Spandau as on the Vickers. I am sure the Germans captured planes with "boosted" Vickers and saw the advantage. I find it hard to believe they would not have tried to use the same design. After all, the Germans always closely examined captured Allied planes and had no problem copying all the good stuff.
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