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Gav's mod 0.31: get your 1916 on!


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#1 gavagai

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 06:07

The attachment is a JSGME ready mod I've been working on. It includes 3 files:

1) A global mod for AI gunners (5th version).
2) Further adjustments to the Fe2b AI pilot's tactics
3) AI pilot mod for the Halberstadt Cl.2

This mod makes the AI gunners more aggressive and increases their tolerance to g-forces. It also tweaks the Fe2b and Cl.2 AI pilot tactics to make better use of these improved gunners.

Known issues:

1) The Fe2b nose gunner fires to low at everything (Cl.2 gunner as well, possibly). This might be a global problem with AI gunners.

2) The Fe2b gunner has to cycle through all of his positions sometimes instead of just going where he needs to go (probably can't fix).

3) You might see a gunner firing from a surprising position for a split second, e.g. inverted. This is the price we pay for more active gunners.

Advice: Keep your turns very gentle to make the best use of your gunner. His accuracy is affected by your g-load and vector changes.

———–

Newest version: Gav's mod 0.31

uploaded September 8th, 2013.

0.3 includes everything in the previous "Gunners that fight" mod, plus a bunch of revisions to 1916 aircraft to compliment the Fee. I have also included "AI pilot awareness" to balance the better piloting skills I have included for novice and average pilots (they fly better, but will sometimes lose their bearings). In addition to the correct sector limits for the DFW and Re8 gunners, I have revised the AI pilots for the following aircraft:

Central Powers:
Fokker E.III
Halberstadt D.II
Albatros D.II
DFW
Roland C.II

Entente
DH2
N11
N17
Sopwith Pup
Spad 7 150hp
Fe2b
Re8

The N11 and N17 have undergone the most dramatic changes among the scouts. I found a script command that had been severely limiting their performance that was leftover from when they had paper ailerons (before fm revision). The N11 is an especially dangerous opponent if you're flying the Fokker E.III. Try it. ;)

Another change is that I smoothed out the controls for the AI scout pilots. Some of you may have noticed their control surfaces fluttering in the past. This should happen much less frequently now, and (I hope) prevent the AI from being so hamfisted through its maneuvers.

P.S. Beware of 2 seater gunners. They are deadly!

Attached Files


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#2 Dutch2

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 06:15

Gav this is included the Fee gunner behavior.

edit: hehehe I'm #1 that downloaded this, maybe now I get a medal from Lou :lol:
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#3 gavagai

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 06:24

Yes, hopefully it will help your Fee gunner. He still hesitates for no reason sometimes, and I don't know why.
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#4 Dutch2

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:08

Did test it and now it react. The test was too short because the EIII got shot down by AA very quickly. Only strange thing is that the gunner is constant going from front to rear, but there is nothing on top, the EIII was always below.
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#5 JoeCrow

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:18

We can consider whether AI two-seater pilots should ever roll inverted. If you think they shouldn't, I think I can make it happen.

It's not at all conclusive but I've never seen inverted flight (loops or rolls) ever mentioned in combat reports for 2-seaters and it's very rarely mentioned for scouts. That's not to say that it couldn't be done but it doesn't sound like a good idea to disengage your gunner.
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#6 hq_Jorri

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:09

Hi gav I am using GunnerAImod1030, how does this mod influence it? Or does it only affect the Fee (and the ClII that you mention)?
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#7 Dutch2

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 13:29

Hi gav I am using GunnerAImod1030, how does this mod influence it? Or does it only affect the Fee (and the ClII that you mention)?

good point on that.
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#8 gavagai

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 13:47

Jorri, I said to disable your other mods when you test this out. ;)
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#9 hq_Jorri

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 13:51

Yes, but is that just to test his version out or does it actually include that mod as well?
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#10 gavagai

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 14:07

It mods the same file that avimimus' mod relies on. I'm not making use of anyone else's work here.

P.S. I also increased gunner accuracy against ground targets and balloons.

P.S.S. No one wants to tell us about how he got shot down by the Halberstadt Cl.2? :x
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#11 gavagai

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 16:33

Only strange thing is that the gunner is constant going from front to rear, but there is nothing on top, the EIII was always below.

Probably the E.III was moving back and forth between the two firing arcs for the front and rear gun. There's nothing I can do to fix that.
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#12 PatAWilson

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 16:55

Only strange thing is that the gunner is constant going from front to rear, but there is nothing on top, the EIII was always below.

Probably the E.III was moving back and forth between the two firing arcs for the front and rear gun. There's nothing I can do to fix that.

Is there any way to make the gunner delay for a moment before making the move? If yes it might be possible to achieve a result where he sticks with his firing position rather than get into a context thrashing mode.
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#13 Mogster

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 17:00

He has to move to the rear if he wants to move positions, even if the targets in front. Unfortunately as there's no back cycle key, only forwards for change position firing position we have to witness him leaping into the stood up rear position every cycle. Sigh…

We need some extra Fee love programming to sort this out, and the invisible Lewis gun. Unfortunately I'm not confident we'll get it any time soon.

Thanks for working on these mods Gav, I havent tried it yet but intend to. This sort of effort is our only hope till BOS is out I fear.
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#14 Dutch2

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 19:25

Only strange thing is that the gunner is constant going from front to rear, but there is nothing on top, the EIII was always below.

Probably the E.III was moving back and forth between the two firing arcs for the front and rear gun. There's nothing I can do to fix that.

Not a real problem btw, I'm very satisfy with this mod, finally he is doing something.
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#15 Panthercules

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 19:49

Just tried one QMB with some Fees against some FE3s - once with mods off and once with this mod.

Can't say I saw a whole lot of difference so far, but it certainly didn't look any worse with the mod than without. Certainly worth some further looks. Think I'll give it a try with some career missions and see what happens.
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#16 Mogster

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 20:28

He'll fire when you aren't wings level now which is an improvement though, he still doesn't seem to like the nose being pitched up or down though.

I chased an EIII through a descending turn and he didn't still fire once. When we were on the deck though he did a decent job, we had an EIII in front and one on our tail, while I was banking to keep on the first ones tail matey kept switching from the front gun to the rear giving both the treatment. It was quite cool tbh.

So the short version is I'd like to see him firing in a constant rate descending turn.
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#17 gavagai

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 23:55

new revision up

I wasn't able to get him to fire more under g load. It seems like we're maxed out in that category.
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#18 gavagai

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 14:24

I'm still waiting for someone to speak and say that I've made two seaters too good. Anyone? Have any of you tried it from the scout side?
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#19 actionjoe

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 18:33

Yep, it is cool to have these gunners while in the FE2, but against it…You maybe have a chance against a lonely two seater, but against 2 or 3, forget it.
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#20 HotTom

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 18:38

Sent you a PM. Yes, in the one test I did,the gunner seemed much more aggressive and was hopping around less and firing more. But he still can't hit anything.

Busy the rest of today but will report back when I start flying again Tuesday.

Bottom Line: It IS better but still not capable of accurate fire.

Thanks for trying to fix it, gav!
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#21 gavagai

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 19:00

HT,

I wonder, do you know the skill level of the gunner you have in your Fe2b? Maybe we should set up a single mission in four varieties to test out the relative strengths in a controlled fashion.

Like I said, the way I have it now the Ace and Veteran gunners will almost shoot you between the eyes. If your gunner is average or novice, you will have a lot more trouble.
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#22 HotTom

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 19:04

No, I don't know and I'm not inclined to fool with the Mission Editor to check it. It's whatever Pat has it set for.

Really, you need to number all these versions. I can't keep them straight while testing if you call them all the same thing.

I just flew a test and you've posted two new versions while I was up. :mrgreen:
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#23 CAFulcrum

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 22:19

I finally had a chance to try this.

Huge improvement over the stock gunner. He actively tracked against a single ai e.iii and fired from all stations, even during maneuvers. Seemed to correct while shooting too, which is much better than how the stock ai behaves (firing a burst without any movement at all).

Seemed to chronically undershoot though. I shot the e.iii down by taking out first one, then the other elevator, never shot a plane down like that myself :D He doesn't seem to lead correctly though. Same issue with ground targets, he hits them very well if you fly directly towards them, but if you circle he constantly shoots the ground just in front of the vehicle.

He did blow up a moving car, put in a very solid burst on it and it exploded as we flew past.

Fighting against the fee in an eindecker felt much more realistic. Rather than just risk getting an occasional lazer beam of bullets, I was recieving fire at all times when exposed to the fees gunner, even from a distance. I even got shots when wildly maneuvering. But shots I did get were single and not instant pilot kills. Felt like the right amount of danger. But still managed to shot the fee down easily, just a matter of putting the prop between you and the gunner. The fee did not maneuver much once I was parked on him, though he had wobbled and then circled into me previously, and I got hit as we merged.

The only other issues were that the gunner seemed to not fire when at a certain bank, even when pulling light Gs, and they took a very long time to respond to gun jams.

Maybe some day we'll get the kind of animations needed for the fee… not just the gunner moving, but gripping the side or showing when he is or isn't able to fire the gun.

Great work on this gavagai :S!:
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#24 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 00:52

We can consider whether AI two-seater pilots should ever roll inverted. If you think they shouldn't, I think I can make it happen.

It's not at all conclusive but I've never seen inverted flight (loops or rolls) ever mentioned in combat reports for 2-seaters and it's very rarely mentioned for scouts. That's not to say that it couldn't be done but it doesn't sound like a good idea to disengage your gunner.
I second this opinion. I just don't think Fee pilots did that sort of thing, or if an ace Fee pilot did so on a rare occasion, am sure he told his gunner to be seated with the 'fasten seat belt' sign and tone…
:lol:


He has to move to the rear if he wants to move positions, even if the targets in front. Unfortunately as there's no back cycle key, only forwards for change position firing position we have to witness him leaping into the stood up rear position every cycle. Sigh…
We share your pain Mogster. There has to be a simple way to code a keystroke to cycle 'counter-clockwise', i.e. left, through the firing positions, rather than just right.

It's just freaking silly how it is now…
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#25 gavagai

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:12

CAfulcrum,

I have also observed that the Fee nose gunner shoots too low. He shoots too low at everything. I don't know how to fix it, but I will pay attention to that problem as I tweak further.

At the moment I am studying the instructions for the ai pilots with the help of google translate. I realize that I had some fundamental misunderstandings about what certain parameters do. I thought I could completely prohibit two-seater pilots from rolling inverted but I don't think my idea works.
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#26 Panthercules

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 02:38

Gav - just tried another career mission flying Fees with your version 4. In general, it worked rather well. Two things stuck out:

(1) as others have noted, it was obvious that the gunner was very often shooting too low - not always, but usually (and it seemed to happen most when the target was closest - he seemed to lead better when the target was farther away).

(2) The gunner seems to shoot best and most consistently from the two side firing points, when the enemy is approx 10 o'clock low or 2 o'clock low. It seemed like the better firing solution I gave him at a target dead ahead, the more likely he was just to sit there and watch it evaporate instead of taking any shots (and it wasn't due to any of my manuevering - he would pass up easy shots dead ahead with me closing straight and level and easy, and then start making shots from one of the side postions even as I was turning to keep the enemy in that low forward quarter position).

I did manage finally to down the Halberstadt DII I was after, and things looked promising. Most of what's wrong with the gunners probably can only be fixed by the devs, but I'm encouraged by what I've seen of this version so far. Gotta call it an early night tonight, but will try to fly a few more missions with it tomorrow night if possible.

Thanks for giving this a try :S!:
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#27 CAFulcrum

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:05

CAfulcrum,

I have also observed that the Fee nose gunner shoots too low. He shoots too low at everything. I don't know how to fix it, but I will pay attention to that problem as I tweak further.

It seems to be the same case with the CL2 as well. It seems the hits they are getting are either from spread or aiming inaccuracy, or certain situations where the airplane or target just happens to cross the path of the bullet trajectory (ie about 20 degrees high/low.) I think if you can figure out how to shift his aim higher the mod will be perfect.
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#28 gavagai

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:13

The Cl.2 also? Good to know. Thanks for the feedback. Uploading yet another revision. This one includes better Cl.2 and Fe2b AI pilot tactics (AI gunner changes seem good for now), and it will be called 0.1. ;)
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#29 HotTom

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:53

Will grab it in the morning. Thanks, Gav!
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#30 jeanba4

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 17:56

Tested verion .1 with a Roland CLII against a Fee, then a Alb DII against a Fee, then a Spad against a Halb CLII and against a Roland CII.

I confirm they shoot usually quite low.
AI as gunner is very deadly compared to 1.030 ai mod, for instance, especially when you are in their 10 or 2 O'clock with sometimes real "sniper shoots". They are good also when you are in their 4 or 8 with high deflexion.
You are dead if you stand behind them for a too long time.

Against the fee, I noted that the fee gunner performed quite frequent inverted shoots too.
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#31 HotTom

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 18:31

It's a definite improvement although, as you note the gunner shoots too low. In any case, he is more aggressive.

Took and FE2 up in QM vs E.III veteran. Shot down two.

Found it works best in a turning fight if I go into lead pursuit and get my nose ahead of the E.III in the turn, then partially level off and let the E.III cross in front of me giving the gunner a clear shot.

In one case my gunner chewed off the E.III's tail. I'm not sure where he was hitting him in the second fight.

Certainly better than the default!

:S!:

HT
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#32 Mogster

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 19:57

I've noticed that matey stops firing when I get very close to an enemy aircraft, by very close I mean maybe 25-50m. At that range he should be dealing death to anything in front instead he just stops..,
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#33 gavagai

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 21:23

Sure he isn't reloading? I will look into that.

Good news:

I figured out how to stop the two seaters from rolling inverted as a defensive tactic.

I also found something for the time it takes the gunner to change positions, which is defaulted to 0.5 seconds. I will reduce it to 0.25 for the Fee gunner to compensate for his retarded position changes.
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#34 Panthercules

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 22:17

Sure he isn't reloading? I will look into that.

Good news:

I figured out how to stop the two seaters from rolling inverted as a defensive tactic.

I also found something for the time it takes the gunner to change positions, which is defaulted to 0.5 seconds. I will reduce it to 0.25 for the Fee gunner to compensate for his retarded position changes.


I have a feeling that it's already a lot faster for them to change positions than it would be possible to do IRL, so I'm not sure this needs tampering with. However, I agree that the going around in circles thing is a bit weird so I understand your trying to reduce the differential between moving left (requiring 3 position changes) and moving right requiring only 1).

Does this also affect when/how fast they decide to change positions, or can that be adjusted independently of how fast they take their new position once they've decided to make the move? I'd be fine with them actually being able to "assume the position" faster (as a way of compensating for the circling mechanic), but not if it also makes them vacillate between the different positions even faster/more often than they already do. I'd rather see them go the opposite direction, i.e., be more likely to stay in one place longer (and let me maneuver to give them a decent shot from that position) and more reluctant to flit about among all the various positions like they often do now.

I already get dizzy watching them turn around like whirling dervishes, and I suspect they get dizzy too - might explain their tendency to shoot so poorly sometimes :lol:
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#35 gavagai

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 00:21

Good points panthercules. I will try it out, and if you guys hate it, we can go back.

No progress on figuring out how to get the gunner to aim a little higher.

I have the Bristol F.2b AI flying with dangerous precision now. They do this silly roll thing like the Sopwith Camel when they move to the attack, though. Wish I knew how to make that go away.
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#36 Panthercules

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 05:07

Hey Gav - sorry I wasn't able to test this much tonight. My next career mission was an artillery spotting one, and I hadn't flown one of those for ages so I had to give it a go. It was a blast, and I actually managed to rain destruction on both the primary and secondary targets, and was rewarded with some very satisfying secondary explosions. Lots of fun, but no encounters with EA (my escorts apparently took care of them while I wasn't looking) so I didn't get a chance to put your mod to the test.

I did ask my gunner to attack a balloon we were passing on the way to my secondary target area - he did it quite well and scored a few hits, but I didn't want to lose the altitude necessary for another pass so we didn't actually down the balloon. And between some RL issues and the hour I spent on that arty spotting mission, I ran out of time for testing, so I'll have to give it another go tomorrow night if possible.
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#37 CAFulcrum

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 16:06

I had the opposite experience in a career balloon attack mission, gunner refused to attack the balloon even when ordered and my wingmen wouldn't attack either, they just circled endlessly, even after the enemy scouts protecting the balloon were destroyed.
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#38 Panthercules

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 16:37

I had the opposite experience in a career balloon attack mission, gunner refused to attack the balloon even when ordered and my wingmen wouldn't attack either, they just circled endlessly, even after the enemy scouts protecting the balloon were destroyed.


Hmm - did you use key commands or the widget menu to tell your gunner to attack the balloon? (and if key commands, have you checked to make sure your settings weren't reset by the update?) I usually don't use the widget menu, but I already had it up for the arty spotting aspects so I used it for my gunner commands this time, and it worked OK for me.

Was the balloon already winched all the way down to the ground? I'm not sure that matters, but I'm wondering if maybe it starts being considered as a ground target once it reaches bottom, as I have destroyed the occasional balloon in that state and not gotten credit for it as a balloon. (I always figured it was because the balloon had self-destructed by being winched too far down and hitting the ground, but maybe something else was going on?)
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#39 CAFulcrum

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 17:33

I had the opposite experience in a career balloon attack mission, gunner refused to attack the balloon even when ordered and my wingmen wouldn't attack either, they just circled endlessly, even after the enemy scouts protecting the balloon were destroyed.


Hmm - did you use key commands or the widget menu to tell your gunner to attack the balloon? (and if key commands, have you checked to make sure your settings weren't reset by the update?) I usually don't use the widget menu, but I already had it up for the arty spotting aspects so I used it for my gunner commands this time, and it worked OK for me.

Was the balloon already winched all the way down to the ground? I'm not sure that matters, but I'm wondering if maybe it starts being considered as a ground target once it reaches bottom, as I have destroyed the occasional balloon in that state and not gotten credit for it as a balloon. (I always figured it was because the balloon had self-destructed by being winched too far down and hitting the ground, but maybe something else was going on?)

I used the keyboard to navigate through the widget… as far as I know it's worked before.

There were two balloons at the target site. I went after the northern balloon, which was winched down when I attacked. I ended up shooting it while it was close to the ground until it began to sink and blew up when it crashed. The gunner had not fire at this balloon.

I then went after a few halberstadts that had been fighting an escort flight of fees. The gunner shot at these ones but I had to take over to actually knock them down as he wasn't shooting while I turned the plane. (is it maybe an issue of gunner skill? I'm at the lowest rank right now in my fee career)

When the halbs were down I climbed, found my flight of fees were continually making steady passes at the southern balloon. There was a flak truck here and I decided to go after it and the gunner on the ground. The flak truck took a lot of hits before I finally managed to kill it, and the machine gunner was impossible to kill (though I saw a few hits on him). During this time the balloon had winched down. I ran out of ammo before I could take it out; the other balloon took about 4 drums of lewis ammo before it started to sink.

I got no credit for the balloon.

It's strange because I've gotten two other balloon kills with the fee and one of them was by the same method as in this flight. Maybe I should have kept shooting once it started to descend?

In another missions (recon) one of the balloons at the secondary objective descended, but the other remained at alt and I shot it down with only a single clip of lewis ammo, and received a kill…

My gunner never shot at those balloons either (before gav's mod), and so far I haven't observed any ai fees shooting at balloons, though with gav's mod they are much more active in pursuing enemy planes.
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#40 gavagai

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 21:46

I don't think the issue is gunner skill. There seems to be a maximum to which you can set the g tolerance, and it's not so much that you can do a good coordinated turn to pursue an enemy and have the AI gunner still fire. At least, I haven't figured out how to increase it more. Ideally I think you should be able to go to 60 degrees of bank if you stay coordinated, as that works out to 2 Gs. Tough, but not impossible for a gunner with a single weapon if he already has it in place.

I've been experimenting with getting the AI to actually dive to attack, instead of doing those stupid lazy circles or corkscrew thing. When I get that right for the Fee I will upload another revision that includes the change that prevents the AI Fee pilots from rolling inverted.
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