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Nieuport 17 glass rudder


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#201 Plank

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 09:47

Hmmph.

 

The blinking annoying thing is that I am doing quite well in the N17

fighting up a lather, and to get the rudder falling off every time

is causing me to be rather reticent to fly the darn plane at all.

 

I think in the last outing on WG when I flew a whole mission 

in that plane it's rudder came off about SEVEN times.

 

Frankly the N17 is not too shabby if you get a DR1 or DVa 

running out of E down low, but this rudder nonsense is

spoiling the good dog fights. Sigh.

 

If you see an N17 just aim at it's rudder... POP!

 

Salute!

 

Plank.

 

PS. and the little tyke is not too shabby at vertical fighting too...


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#202 gavagai

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 18:38

There is no problem with the N17 rudder unless you can PROVE it to the RoF peanut gallery. :P


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#203 FourSpeed

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Posted 05 December 2015 - 20:54

There is no problem with the N17 rudder unless you can PROVE it to the RoF peanut gallery. :P

 

...which, evidently includes the 777 devs, as I seem to recall them saying there is no problem either...  <shrug>

 

 

4


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#204 Plank

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 01:03

Chaps,

 

There is not much to prove.

 

Fly the N17 GBR on Wargrounds and really get into the snarling furball.

Your rudder will come off regularly.

 

If there is anecdotal evidence etc to back up the rudder

falling off all the time in RL then I guess the Devs got it right.

 

But I dare say the plane in RL would get grounded until it was FIXED,

and then sent back in to kick the DR1's bottom.

 

Oversimplification of damage models I would say is the issue.

and magnification of what appears to be a weakness.

 

But we will never know until the lid comes off the box and

we get to peer inside to see the workings.

 

and that probably won't happen.

 

(An interesting thing: the N17 can turn tighter than the Dr1 but slower,

the Dr1 goes wider but faster. If you let the DR1 extend a bit you can

shoot at it quite a lot as it turns in front of you to attack you again head on.

If you practice turning on a pin you can keep this up for quite a while, chipping

bit's off of it with your wonky aim single lewis gun.. )

 

 

Salute!

 

Plank.


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#205 Arty_Effem

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 04:07

Chaps,

 

There is not much to prove.

 

Fly the N17 GBR on Wargrounds and really get into the snarling furball.

Your rudder will come off regularly.

 

If there is anecdotal evidence etc to back up the rudder

falling off all the time in RL then I guess the Devs got it right.

 

But I dare say the plane in RL would get grounded until it was FIXED,

and then sent back in to kick the DR1's bottom.

 

The NP17's rudder never falls off without the plane taking any hits, the problem is proving from which direction it is unusually vulnerable. I would suggest you record your sorties then analyse them carefully.

I created a test map that allowed me to fire at a static NP17 from the side, which showed that the rudder could only be detached by hitting close to the hinged area as expected. Then I set-up a flying test in which an N17 just flies in a straight line allowing me to attack it with the Lewis gun of an SE5. Shooting from behind/below it takes quite a few hits to detach the rudder and only after doing substantial damage to the rest of the tail group.

This forces me (provisionally) to the conclusion that the rudder may be vulnerable to frontal attacks, which I tried to test by shooting backwards from a two-seater, but on one's own it's a tricky task. Maybe one day I'll set-up an online test server on which two players can experiment.


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#206 Plank

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Posted 06 December 2015 - 05:24

Dear Arty,

 

You absolutely correct.

 

The N17 GBR rudder will not come adrift of it's own accord,

it needs help.

 

and now that I think about it the N11 rudder was popping off

quite a bit when I was on Aces in Verdun...

 

Points to consider:

 

Shot from behind.

Shot reasonably close.

Shot by DR1.

Really working the plane but not very high IAS.

 

Like I suggested. Get on WG and get stuck in.

 

I would put money on the the damage by bullets and the

strain of ruddering are used to calc the break point.

Regardless of where they hit.

 

Your static n17 target is not straining it rudder at all.

 

Pull some G's with the rudder then shoot it...

 

It's a mystery...

 

and I will try to capture some track under duress....

 

Salute!

 

Plank.

 

PS. any time you want to set up a test server count me in.


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#207 =HillBilly=

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 03:29

Plank here is some prints of the Nieuport rudder attachment, study them, you can clearly see it's not a good design.

 

Attached File  Nieuport_17_Tail 2.jpg   112.79KB   0 downloads

 

Attached Files


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#208 Plank

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 04:03

Dear HB.

 

Not only is it not a good design it's also tiny.

 

Which means it's even harder to hit.

 

so a very small hinge = weaker hinge = large hit box...   ?

 

and I have yet to see any anecdotal evidence that N11/N17 pilots

were getting their rudders shot off all the time.

 

until then I am assuming the rudder getting shot off frequency is mythical.

 

Not to be a pain but we really need to substantiate features of certain planes.

Particularly ones that are quite spectacular.

 

Luckily you can sort of nurse your plane down, but you wont be avoiding 

any attacking plane. so it's all tits up really...

 

Salute!

 

Plank.

 

PS. actually the hinge looks fine. It's a not heavy weight nor bullet proof but it is pretty compact.

       and quite had to hit....


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#209 gavagai

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 11:19

No other aircraft in the game suffers routine rudder failure where the whole control surface falls off.

 

There is enough evidence already.  This is just one of those things where they calculate the cost of fixing it versus the cost of not fixing it.


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#210 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 11:49

No other aircraft in the game suffers routine rudder failure where the whole control surface falls off.

 

There is enough evidence already.  This is just one of those things where they calculate the cost of fixing it versus the cost of not fixing it.

Hanriot HD1 sends me crashing rudderless quite often. Unless you mean "no other aircraft that anybody of consequence actually flies", then I have to agree  :icon_lol: .


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#211 =HillBilly=

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 13:57

No other aircraft in the game suffers routine rudder failure where the whole control surface falls off.

 

 

The Fokker E.III does in a dive with no combat damage.


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#212 B24_LIBERATOR

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 17:15

I believe the problem we found earlier was that there is one hitbox for the rudder and the pivot point. 777 is very good at making 1990's quality damage models. :icon_lol:


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#213 gavagai

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 11:12

I believe the problem we found earlier was that there is one hitbox for the rudder and the pivot point. 777 is very good at making 1990's quality damage models. :icon_lol:

 

So you shoot the rudder surface and the damage goes to the hinge.  Awesome.


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#214 Panthercules

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 15:55

If this is a hit box issue, would it be possible to mod this like was done with the pilot/gunner vulnerability hit box-based mod, to perhaps reduce the incidence of this rudder problem?


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#215 Ice_Age

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 09:26

I will also add my voice to those that think the N17 rudder is bs.  I don't fly the Nieuport, but I have made many surprising kills on them in which the rudder pops right off.  Those planes were in dire staits anyway, but I think they were quicker to kill because of this issue.  If I'm not mistaken, credit isn't always given for the circumstance in which their rudder is blasted off and then they crash.  But the chances of it getting fixed are probably nil, so I just thought I would say yes I think the plane has something wrong with the rudder. 


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#216 =HillBilly=

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 14:29

Proof is what is needed, so far the videos,(most of them) show collisions. We(I) need slow-motion to show how many bullets hit the rudder and where.  


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#217 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 19:47

The problem with getting proof is that there doesn't appear to be anything wrong when you shoot at the tail of a 17 on the ground.  


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#218 =HillBilly=

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 20:25

Proof like this video in very slow-motion, as it looks now it shows damage before rudder "falls off". Maybe a different angle too.

 

 

 

 

It also might serve to prove that there is no problem.


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#219 Arty_Effem

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 20:30

Proof is what is needed, so far the videos,(most of them) show collisions. We(I) need slow-motion to show how many bullets hit the rudder and where.  

Here is a video of my personal static testing, shooting directly at the rudder. It appears to indicate that hits on the rudder do transfer damage to the tail. I would also infer that the requisite hit count is not fixed but rather randomised for each instance of the plane.

Note that I was trying to fire single rounds from the machine gun and not all are audible, but it's clear when the gun is firing.

 

Draw your own conclusions:

 


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#220 J2_Trupobaw

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 20:51

Here is a video of my personal static testing, shooting directly at the rudder. It appears to indicate that hits on the rudder do transfer damage to the tail. I would also infer that the requisite hit count is not fixed but rather randomised for each instance of the plane.

Note that I was trying to fire single rounds from the machine gun and not all are audible, but it's clear when the gun is firing.

 

Draw your own conclusions:

 

 

 

Pistol may be more conclusive...


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#221 =HillBilly=

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 21:09

Arty I was suggesting "slow-motion" video of flying combat where the rudder comes off. :icon_e_salute:  

 

Your video does show a large "hit-box" maybe the deves should look into that, or the moders  could come up with some thing.

 

Edit: Panthercules is asking almost the same question about "hit-box" in this thread http://riseofflight....view=getnewpost


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#222 Arty_Effem

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Posted 14 December 2015 - 22:07

Pistol may be more conclusive...

 

I tried the pistol; it just took proportionally more hits to get the same result.


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#223 Arty_Effem

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 00:56

Arty I was suggesting "slow-motion" video of flying combat where the rudder comes off. :icon_e_salute:  

 

Your video does show a large "hit-box" maybe the deves should look into that, or the moders  could come up with some thing.

 

 

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the hitbox relating to the rudder; only the disproportionate damage being done. Bullet hits on such a surface would just make holes. Enough hits could well break the rudder, but not transfer enough energy to damage the tail. The simplest fix would be to raise the lower limit of the random range of hits required.

For this test I considered a static test to be more scientific. If someone wants to make a slow motion video of combat damage that's fine, however they'll need a high frame rate graphics adapter to make it worthwhile and even then it may be hard to analyse.


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#224 gavagai

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 11:28

At this point, someone who is not convinced is just being intransigent.  It is painful to admit that there's a long-standing problem with the N17 and nothing is going to be done about it.


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#225 Plank

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 11:32

Never let them grab your tail, the feathers come out rather easily...


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#226 =HillBilly=

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 15:32

I don't think there's anything wrong with the hitbox relating to the rudder; only the disproportionate damage being done. Bullet hits on such a surface would just make holes. Enough hits could well break the rudder, but not transfer enough energy to damage the tail. The simplest fix would be to raise the lower limit of the random range of hits required.

For this test I considered a static test to be more scientific. If someone wants to make a slow motion video of combat damage that's fine, however they'll need a high frame rate graphics adapter to make it worthwhile and even then it may be hard to analyse.

Mostly agree, the damage model dose seem a little excessive but bullet holes in fabric would be hard to see.

My I suggest that run the same test as the video, but shoot at the rear of fuselage(just under the horizontal stab),if the rudder falls off then the hit box is very large.

 

 

At this point, someone who is not convinced is just being intransigent

    @ gavagai  Just claiming there is a problem and not truly identifying exactly what and where the problem is is being intransigent.

Instead of just complaining about it do something to find where the problem is hiding.


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#227 Arty_Effem

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 17:47

 

My I suggest that run the same test as the video, but shoot at the rear of fuselage(just under the horizontal stab),if the rudder falls off then the hit box is very large.

 

I tried that; eventually it breaks the tail but only applies some fabric damage to the rudder. Only hitting the rudder directly can detach it. Same situation on the N11 and E3.


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