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Nieuport 17 glass rudder


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#81 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 19:38

no, it won´t
the accuracy of the stats is not reliably covering this, nor does it give types of damage other then damage/wounded

It doesn't have to detail the damage, he just needs a log of a flight when his rudder falls off that shows no hits from enemy aircraft or flak. It's not definitive proof that there is a bug, but it's proof that the rudder is coming off without damage from enemy (or friendly) fire.
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#82 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 19:55

not all events are a 100% reliably logged. With that you can forget said "proof", because no log entry does not reliably equal no in game event. Use some common sense.


But that said, the rudder does not simply fall off. If you lose it online in a fight, with no apprent direct reason, be sure it is a network issue. simple as that. rendering shots from someome else sometimes can be a tiny bit late, but since on the other players instance you got hit and damaged, that data then reaches you with priority it is applied when it is processed in your machine…


just record any quick action server full of different ping people:

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#83 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 20:01

not all events are a 100% reliably logged. With that you can forget said "proof", because no log entry does not reliably equal no in game event. Use some common sense.

A flight with a missing rudder and no damage from bullets recorded is a lot more proof than "I think there is something wrong", which is all the proof he's provided so far. On the other hand, if you receive damage from enemy (or friendly) fire every time you lose your rudder, that's pretty strong evidence that the rudder is being shot off. In other words, use some common sense.
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#84 FourSpeed

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 21:01

not all events are a 100% reliably logged. With that you can forget said "proof", because no log entry does not reliably equal no in game event. Use some common sense.

A flight with a missing rudder and no damage from bullets recorded is a lot more proof than "I think there is something wrong", which is all the proof he's provided so far. On the other hand, if you receive damage from enemy (or friendly) fire every time you lose your rudder, that's pretty strong evidence that the rudder is being shot off. In other words, use some common sense.
BSR, I don't believe you're correct regarding the log.

Here's a brief snippet from our Wargrounds server C&P'd from the Stats Page (I've
only removed the pilot names from each line)

12.09.2014 07:50:30 [Halberstadt CL.II 200hp] was respawned 12.09.2014 07:50:32 [Fokker Dr.I] was respawned 12.09.2014 07:51:30 [Fokker Dr.I] take off 12.09.2014 07:51:31 [Halberstadt CL.II 200hp] take off 12.09.2014 07:57:02 [Halberstadt CL.II 200hp] was respawned 12.09.2014 07:57:48 [Fokker Dr.I] has destroyed AI [Caquot] 12.09.2014 07:57:51 [Halberstadt CL.II 200hp] take off 12.09.2014 08:01:18 [Fokker Dr.I] was disabled 12.09.2014 08:01:26 [Fokker Dr.I] crashed on the ground 12.09.2014 08:01:44 [Fokker Dr.I] has finished 12.09.2014 08:06:47 [Halberstadt CL.II 200hp] has killed AI [BotGunnerHP400_3] 12.09.2014 08:06:48 [Halberstadt CL.II 200hp] has killed AI [BotGunnerHP400_2] 12.09.2014 08:07:27 [Halberstadt CL.II 200hp] has killed AI [BotGunnerHP400_1] 12.09.2014 08:08:42 AI [Turret Halberstadt CL.II 200hp] has shotdown AI [Handley Page 0-400]
It's pretty sparse - and gives little (if any) indicator *why* something happened.

For instance, note in the middle of the log about the DR.1 "disabled" and "crashed".

There is no information about how or why it became disabled and crashed - did the
pilot crash into the balloon, oil the engine, break a wing, screw up a landing???

No Idea.

I can't see how this would help with identifying a so-called "glass rudder" situation
either, as it wouldn't be definitively stated in the log.

Now, the logs in the actual server "might be" more detailed (I *don't* know that for
certain as I've never looked at those), but even if they are, a typical player wouldn't
have access to them unless they're running their own server.


As for the actual OP issue, my purely subjective feeling is that there is something a
little odd with Nieuport rudders compared to other scouts, but I have nothing to prove
whether it is actually different, actually a bug, or just a quirk of Nieuport design.

Whether it should be looked at or not would be solely up to the devs (barring any definitive
proof of a bug).


Regards,
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#85 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 21:08

You're looking at the wrong page. Here are the details for an individual sortie:

09.09.2014 20:44:55
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] was respawned
09.09.2014 20:45:27
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] take off
09.09.2014 20:47:03
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.008) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:06
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.015) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:36
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.011) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:36
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.005) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:37
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.013) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:37
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.008) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:37
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.009) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:37
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.009) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:38
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has wounded (0.25) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:38
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.032) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:38
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has wounded (0.25) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:38
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.034) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:38
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.01) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:38
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has wounded (0.25) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:38
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.031) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:40
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.006) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:41
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.015) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:42
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.784) Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:47:42
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has shotdown Sgt.Gomez [SPAD 13.C1]
09.09.2014 20:52:09
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.01) No.42_Bandy [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 20:52:09
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has wounded (0.25) No.42_Bandy [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 20:52:09
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.033) No.42_Bandy [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 20:52:09
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has wounded (0.5) No.42_Bandy [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 20:52:09
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.068) No.42_Bandy [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 20:52:09
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.009) No.42_Bandy [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 20:52:10
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.005) No.42_Bandy [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 21:06:40
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.008) da_rasta_van [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 21:06:42
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.014) da_rasta_van [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 21:07:00
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.005) da_rasta_van [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 21:07:01
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.007) da_rasta_van [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 21:07:02
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.006) da_rasta_van [Sopwith Camel]
09.09.2014 21:09:20
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has landed
09.09.2014 21:09:31
Leprechaun [Fokker Dr.I] has finished

It doesn't specify exactly what the damage is, but it lets you know who, or what, caused the damage.
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#86 FourSpeed

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 21:17

Nope - only in some situations.

It does tell if there's a dogfight or where bullet damage occurs.

It still doesn't tell me what happened to that DR.1 though (even looking AT the sortie itself).

By all means, if you're looking at different logs, feel free to tell me *exactly* what
happened to that Dr.1.

Here's the info from the sortie log page you're referring to… No information at all as
to How or Why the Dr.1 was disabled and crashed.

12.09.2014 07:57:48 [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.006) AI [Caquot] 12.09.2014 07:57:48 [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (0.006) AI [Caquot] 12.09.2014 07:57:48 [Fokker Dr.I] has destroyed AI [Caquot] 12.09.2014 08:01:18 [Fokker Dr.I] has damaged (1.0) 12.09.2014 08:01:18 [Fokker Dr.I] was disabled 12.09.2014 08:01:26 [Fokker Dr.I] crashed on the ground 12.09.2014 08:01:44 [Fokker Dr.I] has finished
Regards,
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#87 Surfimp

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 21:19

Guys I will try to do some testing tonight in QMB and capture the results.
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#88 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 21:23

It doesn't matter "exactly" what happened. This just gives you some evidence that the rudder didn't fall off for "no reason". If player X claims that his rudder just fell off, and I go to the stats and see that someone caused damage, that is evidence that it was actually shot off. If I look at his stats and see no damage from other aircraft, that is evidence that there might be a bug.
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#89 FourSpeed

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 21:32

It doesn't matter "exactly" what happened. This just gives you some evidence that the rudder didn't fall off for "no reason". If player X claims that his rudder just fell off, and I go to the stats and see that someone caused damage, that is evidence that it was actually shot off. If I look at his stats and see no damage from other aircraft, that is evidence that there might be a bug.
You are completely missing the point.

Please tell me whether that Dr.1 oiled his engine, broke something in a dive, crashed
on landing or had his rudder come off… :)

The only thing I can definitively say in that case was that he wasn't shot down.
That's it.

Regards,
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#90 =HillBilly=

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 22:03

It was hit by debris from the AI [Caquot]
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#91 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 22:30

It doesn't matter "exactly" what happened. This just gives you some evidence that the rudder didn't fall off for "no reason". If player X claims that his rudder just fell off, and I go to the stats and see that someone caused damage, that is evidence that it was actually shot off. If I look at his stats and see no damage from other aircraft, that is evidence that there might be a bug.
You are completely missing the point.

Please tell me whether that Dr.1 oiled his engine, broke something in a dive, crashed
on landing or had his rudder come off… :)

The only thing I can definitively say in that case was that he wasn't shot down.
That's it.

Regards,
4 :S!:

No, you're missing the point. There is no reason to look at logs of flights that included anything other than player X claiming that his rudder fell off for no reason. We look at only those flights. If player X is hit by bullets in every single flight where the rudder fell off, then it's probably not falling off for no reason. It's being shot off. If we see some flights where player X loses his rudder without taking any damage from enemy fire, then maybe the rudder is just falling off.

Now, I suppose it's possible that some dishonest d-bag will claim his rudder fell off for no reason when it fell off because he hit a tree. Unfortunately, there is nothing that can be done about that by looking at the stats. We would need a track to spot cases like that. Given that I've never had a rudder fall off for no reason, I would definitely demand to see tracks if someone has stats to supposedly confirm his claims.
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#92 Surfimp

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 04:45

OK, I performed the following test:

QMB, scramble scenario.

I took an HP.

I had a flight of 1x Nieuport 17 (also did this with the Nieuport 11, same result).

As soon as the mission loaded, I jumped to the front gunner, aligned my sight at the base of the rudder, and fired short bursts.

I did this about 10x each for the Nieup 11 and Nieup 17, below is a representative example:



Then I did the exact same test with a Gotha and Fokker Dr.1

Representative result here:



My conclusion:
From this side angle, with a double machine gun aimed at the base of the rudder, it seems that the Nieuport 17's rudder is no more fragile than the Fokker Dr.1's rudder.

It's possible that it is more fragile from another angle, or circumstance; I only tested an easy-to-replicate scenario in the QMB. I will leave it for others to demonstrate other evidence.

I will note that, anecdotally, I have never seen a Fokker Dr.1 rudder shot off in combat, although I have seen it happen (and experienced it myself) many times with the Nieuport 11 and Nieuport 17. So despite the results of this test, I think there is still something to the claims, and there should be further testing.
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#93 gavagai

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 12:02

Thanks Artun. This is so easy to replicate I'm not even sure if I need to record a track. Just do a quick mission with a friendly N17 to shoot at (British or French N17 it doesn't matter), saddle on his 6, and do a little shooting at the tail feathers. The whole rudder will come off before you kill the pilot. This is from a direct 6 o'clock position where the only thing I can see is the edge of the rudder.

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#94 =HillBilly=

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 13:29

It really shouldn't matter what angle you shoot at, hits in the rudder area will take it off just like all other aircraft in ROF.
BUGHUNT OVER.
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#95 gavagai

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 16:12

It really shouldn't matter what angle you shoot at, hits in the rudder area will take it off just like all other aircraft in ROF.
BUGHUNT OVER.

Sure it matters. If you're firing from dead astern, the chance of hitting the pilot should be much greater than hitting the rudder simply because the pilot offers a larger cross-section. But when shooting at the N17 you destroy the rudder before you kill the pilot, and that doesn't happen with any other scout…reductio ad absurdum. Something is very wrong and it is long past the point of debate.
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#96 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 16:12

Surfimp, I reported the same test a few pages ago, and thanks for confirming and conducting it with a Dr1.

If the N17 rudder falls off from brief fire at dead-6 Gav, then let's see it. Unfortunately I don't do flight records or video on my SSD, so someone else please capture this if true.

Let's NOT turn this into an argument, but a civil debate!!! It is far from over. Approach the problem skeptically with designed tests, get results, and discuss, rinse-and-repeat, until the truth is revealed. We still have nothing at this point but opinions and conjecture.

If you are dead-set in one camp, then loose the ego and open your mind to alternatives, and don't jump to conclusions for sanity's sake. In other words, approach it scientifically, it is possible though we are admittedly limited by our available tools.
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#97 Surfimp

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 16:45

Thanks guys, I know that others have done the above test, just wanted to see if I could replicate and provide video results.

Sometime this weekend, I'll try again, in air this time, from dead astern at close range, and see if the N11 or N17 rudders are more fragile than the Halberstadt D.II or Fokker Dr.1. I will record more video and post here for reference.
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#98 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 17:18

observation: the damage seems to have 2 stages, a damaged rudder appears first in the above vids, then seperation. However, it all takes place on the ground.


Suggestion: Have you tried letting the Ai taking off with the damaged one? Does it stay on damaged in flight while maneuvering? (might be that damage state one seperates under maneuvering forces..)
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#99 gavagai

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 22:44

Surfimp, I reported the same test a few pages ago, and thanks for confirming and conducting it with a Dr1.

If the N17 rudder falls off from brief fire at dead-6 Gav, then let's see it. Unfortunately I don't do flight records or video on my SSD, so someone else please capture this if true.

Let's NOT turn this into an argument, but a civil debate!!! It is far from over. Approach the problem skeptically with designed tests, get results, and discuss, rinse-and-repeat, until the truth is revealed. We still have nothing at this point but opinions and conjecture.

If you are dead-set in one camp, then loose the ego and open your mind to alternatives, and don't jump to conclusions for sanity's sake. In other words, approach it scientifically, it is possible though we are admittedly limited by our available tools.

Nullius in verba, Bandy. I gave you the procedure. Try it. I posted it months ago and so far as I can tell no one has tried it.
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#100 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 23:19

I just have done some testing, and it doesn´t show much signs of abnormal instability in QMB. Often I got more pilot kills then the rudder coming off. So it either has been fixed, or it is an online phenomena, which to me is plausible, because damage seems to be calculated on the shooters machine and then the data goes to one who is shot at. Under laggy conditions, which can lead to mini-standstill on the shooters side or similar quirks, I have also encountered what seemed on-shot pilot kills etc.. so I guess it is not a bug per se, but a network issue.


some testing footage (guns not included, because guns=boring):


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#101 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 09:57

Nullius in verba, Bandy. I gave you the procedure. Try it. I posted it months ago and so far as I can tell no one has tried it.
Apparently you as well …

and Gav, linguam Latinam mortuam
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#102 =HillBilly=

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 12:35

What's with all the Latin lately? Are we in Med.school? Or is it some is trying to make others feel stupid?

Gav this is your thread please post screen shots or videos of the "Bug", what you are seeing and others is seeing is two different things.
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#103 Surfimp

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 22:35



Glass elevator maybe? ;)
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#104 JimmyBlonde

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 02:04

I never have any problems offline with rudders departing from the airframe, I've lost an elevator a few times but the rudder seems ok to me which leads me to…

My Solution: don't fly like a lunatic.
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#105 Ghost_666

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 02:08

My Solution: don't fly like a lunatic.
;)

But only a lunatic would fly something made of balsa wood and covered in tissue paper. :lol:
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Circling, Circling, in the sun.  Desperately trying to use my gun.  Up and down and around about.  Left and right I through my Scout.  When I had that Hun, on the run.  My little Newport she spun.  Down and down, with speed I went.  Into the ground, without wings I was sent.  In the mess the empty chair is set.  My flying time is spent.

 


#106 =HillBilly=

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 02:14

My Solution: don't fly like a lunatic.
;)

But only a lunatic would fly something made of balsa wood and covered in tissue paper. :lol:
A lot of lunatics flew balsa wood airplanes in WW2,( the Mosquito ) and love it.
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#107 Ghost_666

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 02:22

Yes, we all love it, so that makes all of us????
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Circling, Circling, in the sun.  Desperately trying to use my gun.  Up and down and around about.  Left and right I through my Scout.  When I had that Hun, on the run.  My little Newport she spun.  Down and down, with speed I went.  Into the ground, without wings I was sent.  In the mess the empty chair is set.  My flying time is spent.

 


#108 Proccy

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 03:49

Attached File  nuts.jpg   27.99KB   180 downloads
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Lieut. (A./Capt.) Andrew Weatherby Beauchamp-Proctor, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C., No. 84 Sqn., R.A. Force.


#109 Surfimp

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 07:07



This time through I tried getting as directly behind the plane as possible and aiming for the pilot (as Gavagai mentions) rather than the rudder post, which I was aiming for previously. In a couple instances, I saw the rudder pop off after the plane pulled up and away, presumably with a dead pilot leaning on the stick.

The rest of the time was like the first video, I wasn't able to get the rudder to come off before I killed the pilot.

So… still a bit inconclusive. It's possible that the rudder gets damaged extremely easily and if I was flying against a real pilot who would apply maximum rudder deflection immediately after the first hit(s), then possibly the rudder would pop off. Hard to say for certain and it would take two people working together in MP to find out for sure.

But it's definitely not easy to simply shoot the rudder off in flight. At least, I haven't been able to find a reliable, consistent way to do it using the QMB.
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#110 SYN_Vander

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 11:32

Looks to me that the N17 rudder DM is no different than others (as has been proved by static testing).
But I think the 2nd damage model of the N17 rudder has very low structural strength.
This would explain that if you try to shoot off a rudder of a static N17 on the ground, you will see no difference in behavior with other rudders. But in the air, as soon as the N17 rudder is damaged (might not even be visible) a very small force (normal use of rudder) can detach the rudder.

You could test this hypothesis in MP with two players:

Spawn in two seater and N17 next to each other. Shoot at rudder 2 times, then the N17 pilot takes off and sees if rudder falls off if force is applied. Rinse and repeat, each time firing more shots in the rudder before take-off.
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#111 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 11:51

But I think the 2nd damage model of the N17 rudder has very low structural strength.
This would explain that if you try to shoot off a rudder of a static N17 on the ground, you will see no difference in behavior with other rudders. But in the air, as soon as the N17 rudder is damaged (might not even be visible) a very small force (normal use of rudder) can detach the rudder.

I was suspecting that, also.
and like to add: in MP when a whole lot of bullets fly, things simply get less smooth FPS wise and thus what is continuus input on the real world on the stick gets a bit more choppy in the calculations, even augmenting the liklyhood of seperation.
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#112 SeaW0lf

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 10:59

Lost my rudder twice last night in a short stint with the Nieuports.

Haven't been flying the Bébé lately, but it was just to mount the N17 that I lost the rudder in the second flight, at the first long range shot from a bomber. Gave up on the N17, not my type or ride and got a N11. Few minutes later, another rudder flies away.

Before people start defending the bug… which always surprises me and is detrimental to this very special simulator, why a (major) bug that has crippled these classic rides lingers on for so long? Lafayette Escadrille anyone? Albert Ball? Guynemer?

I have been reading a lot, and common sense tells that planes that broke apart in flight were soon recalled and investigated. How come I never come across any account of a lost rudder in any airplane during the war?! Perhaps the rudder bug has more kills than many average pilots in ROF.

Please, it can't be that hard to fix it.
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#113 gavagai

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 11:26

Before people start defending the bug… which always surprises me and is detrimental to this very special simulator, why a (major) bug that has crippled these classic rides lingers on for so long? Lafayette Escadrille anyone? Albert Ball? Guynemer?

I remember when there was a bug that caused wings to fall of from tiny amounts of gun fire. People defended that bug, too, even though it was ridiculously obvious.

This bug is equally obvious when you are its victim, but very few fly the Nieuports because the Pup is much easier.
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#114 SeaW0lf

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 11:42

Before people start defending the bug… which always surprises me and is detrimental to this very special simulator, why a (major) bug that has crippled these classic rides lingers on for so long? Lafayette Escadrille anyone? Albert Ball? Guynemer?

I remember when there was a bug that caused wings to fall of from tiny amounts of gun fire. People defended that bug, too, even though it was ridiculously obvious.

This bug is equally obvious when you are its victim, but very few fly the Nieuports because the Pup is much easier.

Like they say… Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. Not much the Bébé, but I think the N17 is quite popular with some veterans.
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#115 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 13:55

Before people start defending the bug… which always surprises me and is detrimental to this very special simulator, why a (major) bug that has crippled these classic rides lingers on for so long? Lafayette Escadrille anyone? Albert Ball? Guynemer?

I remember when there was a bug that caused wings to fall of from tiny amounts of gun fire. People defended that bug, too, even though it was ridiculously obvious.

This bug is equally obvious when you are its victim, but very few fly the Nieuports because the Pup is much easier.
Guys, nobody is defending a bug here as far as I see, so enough with the snide comments (if I am not in turn reading between the lines, and don't think I am…). Yes, all of us would like the devs to quickly peak under the hood to look at this and compare to aircraft with similar rudders.

Personally I am posting to this thread because I have seen no proof other than anecdotal accounts. Several of us have fired at the rudder of N17's on the ground and have seen no major difference in the number of bullets it takes to fall off compared other aircraft rudders. I suspect Vander may be correct about the second damage model. Several squad mates flew the N17 during VM this Sunday and none of them encountered the "glass rudder", myself included.

Also as mentioned there may be some factor/variable involved in receiving damage to your rudder and then subsequently causing it to fall off from hard maneuvering, much like the Pup's damaged wings. If this is so, I would expect that at least the EIII and maybe the Dr1 (though a later aircraft likely with better design) should have a similar trait.

Something more than anecdotal evidence from the Nieuports needs to be collected. Exactly what I am not sure given what we sadly have limited to no access to the data output we would need.

And before anyone goes trumpeting that video posted a few pages ago, that is certainly not proof of anything other than server lag. Below is a video clip from a rocket attack vs. an Albatross. Both pilots have confirmed that the explosion occurred around the target in real time, rather than where it appears in the video, behind the Albatross. I should know, I was the SPAD pilot and the Albatros was a squad mate of mine.


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#116 SeaW0lf

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 14:07

Come on, every time we mention the bug someone shows up with theories that the rudder is ill mounted and this and that. Just read the whole thread.

That kind of comment, when really absolutely unfounded, and it is, only gives ammo for the devs to consider it irrelevant and questionable and move on to another priority.

The bug is major, behind only for when all the stabilizers where locking during spins. For who flies Nieuports, and the Bébé is my second favorite ride (perhaps a draw with the Dr.I), it is disheartening to see it linger for so long.

It is a serious bug, for crying out loud. Take some time to look into it and fix.
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#117 =HillBilly=

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 15:08

That kind of comment, when really absolutely unfounded, and it is
One might say the same for "rudder bug".Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not a bug, butt saying it is a bug is just as unfounded as saying it is not.
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#118 SeaW0lf

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 15:21

Sorry, wasn't picking at you intentionally, but the whole thread is tampered with objections and attempts to explain the bug as not being a bug. As if rudders flew during the war like butterflies. Then we get a little exasperated, and in the past every post about the bug was questioned, so…

And yes, I am passionate about the Bébé :D

And I really think that a DM fix is not that a big of a deal. I might be wrong (about being a relatively easy fix).

:S!:
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#119 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 15:30

Seawolf, they're not flying off like butterflies, they're being shot off. Big difference. Whether or not it's a bug is not as certain as you seem to think it is.
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#120 Hellshade

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 18:10

I remember when there was a bug that caused wings to fall of from tiny amounts of gun fire. People defended that bug, too, even though it was ridiculously obvious.

This bug is equally obvious when you are its victim, but very few fly the Nieuports because the Pup is much easier.

I remember I took a bit of crap for posting that bug (melting wings) right after the patch that caused it went live, but after I posted a video and repeatedly, respectfully stated that I figured it was an unintended effect from the latest patch, the Devs did look into it and they did resolve the issue. With that bug, it could take as little as 1 to 4 bullets and the wings would just melt away the moment the AI pulled the slightest G force on it. I'm not familiar if the N11 rudder issue is equally as obvious or not, but perhaps someone should post a video with multiple examples of it happening.

This was the video of what I called the "melting wings" bug.



Then again showing Camels wings just melting away, sometimes with barely any hits at all.


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