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Nieuport 17 glass rudder


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#41 SeaW0lf

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 05:03

So, I mostly fly the Nieuports when they are available in the FC missions, but today the balance was too off and I switched sides. I was in an Albatros and in only one minute I saw two Nieups rudders fly away.

One was on my account, but I peppered the plane with a spray of bullets so thin that I thought it would do no damage at all, since in most planes you can use all the bullets in the body and nothing happens. But the rudder flew away like a butterfly. Then, a guy next to me did the same thing to another Niep and, voilà, another rudder went away! Plus the fact that I have lost my rudder in most of the missions that I play Nieups. But this time was "cool" to see it from another angle.

It is raining rudders…
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#42 gavagai

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:04

:(
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#43 Pirato

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 14:29

Flying the N17 a lot lately. It feels like 8 out of 10 times I get shot down is because I lose the rudder for nothing. A stray bullet seems to be enough to take the rudder off.
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#44 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 14:58

Patch 1.026 changed that, the gunnery changed a lot from that point on !
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#45 SeaW0lf

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 16:07

Yes, the other day I flew the N17 and lost two rudders in a row. I gave up on that bird, but I lose rudders on the N11 too, which is one of my favs.
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#46 NewGuy_

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 16:10

Yes, the other day I flew the N17 and lost two rudders in a row. I gave up on that bird, but I lose rudders on the N11 too, which is one of my favs.

Oh, you should keep up with the N17. She is so sharp looking and neat-o. :D I use it even against DVIIfs, DR1s, and Pfalzcopters. The usual result is not good for my poor N17, but I have a blast, anyway. I see how long I can go, before I get blasted out of the simulated sky. It is all good fun.

:S!: MJ
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#47 Dressedwings

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 16:23

Misha I tend to fly the Nieuport 17 all the time with a lewis gun and can report similar experiences(except maybe the less skillful Fokkers).

:lol:

Nieuport 11s and 17s are my two favourite Allied aircraft so far in the sim.
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#48 NewGuy_

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 16:51

Misha I tend to fly the Nieuport 17 all the time with a lewis gun and can report similar experiences(except maybe the less skillful Fokkers).

:lol:

Nieuport 11s and 17s are my two favourite Allied aircraft so far in the sim.

Yes, Nieuports are lovely machines. I don't blame you for liking the Nieuports, so very much. :)

:S!: MJ
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#49 SeaW0lf

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 18:19

For some reason I don't like the N17, and the glass rudder does not help. I find the N11 to be a totally different bird, although I can say that they belong to the same family. And it might sound strange, but I love when I have the enemy centered in my sight and the gun jams or the drum runs out :)
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#50 NewGuy_

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 22:39

For some reason I don't like the N17, and the glass rudder does not help. I find the N11 to be a totally different bird, although I can say that they belong to the same family. And it might sound strange, but I love when I have the enemy centered in my sight and the gun jams or the drum runs out :)

Utterly understandable, SeaWolf. I am a proponent for using the N17 in multiplayer and even I have reservations. There are simply not enough missions that allow the N17 to really shine. In air quake, it is almost a given that a map featuring the N17 will feature the Fokker DVIIf, DR1, DVIII, Pfalz DIII, and/ or Albatros DII. There is rarely any incentive for one to use the Albatros DIII and the Albatros DIII is rarely used. Typically, if I want to see an Albatros DIII in air quake, I have to sim fly it, myself.

When I do sim fly the Albatros DIII, I am almost always met by one or several Camels or Pups. After going, "S!" half a dozen times to someone using a 10% fuel loaded Camel or Pup, I say screw it and I then I switch to a Halberstadt DII. :lol: When I am on the Allied side, whether I use a N17 or a 150 hp SPAD VII, I am usually up against a DR1, DVIIf, or a Pfalz DIII.

So long as maps feature DR1s, DVIIfs, Pups, and Camels, along side N17s and Alby DIIIs, I think that N17s and Alby DIIIs will not be so highly regarded, by a great many players.

:S!: MJ
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#51 SeaW0lf

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 01:32

For some reason I don't like the N17, and the glass rudder does not help. I find the N11 to be a totally different bird, although I can say that they belong to the same family. And it might sound strange, but I love when I have the enemy centered in my sight and the gun jams or the drum runs out :)

Utterly understandable, SeaWolf. I am a proponent for using the N17 in multiplayer and even I have reservations. There are simply not enough missions that allow the N17 to really shine. In air quake, it is almost a given that a map featuring the N17 will feature the Fokker DVIIf, DR1, DVIII, Pfalz DIII, and/ or Albatros DII. There is rarely any incentive for one to use the Albatros DIII and the Albatros DIII is rarely used. Typically, if I want to see an Albatros DIII in air quake, I have to sim fly it, myself.

When I do sim fly the Albatros DIII, I am almost always met by one or several Camels or Pups. After going, "S!" half a dozen times to someone using a 10% fuel loaded Camel or Pup, I say screw it and I then I switch to a Halberstadt DII. :lol: When I am on the Allied side, whether I use a N17 or a 150 hp SPAD VII, I am usually up against a DR1, DVIIf, or a Pfalz DIII.

So long as maps feature DR1s, DVIIfs, Pups, and Camels, along side N17s and Alby DIIIs, I think that N17s and Alby DIIIs will not be so highly regarded, by a great many players.

:S!: MJ

I agree in part, because I consider the N11 better overall than the N17. I never dueled in the two planes, so I can't say which one is better. At first, the only advantage I see on the N17 for a server like Aces Falling is the belt fed machinegun.

On the planes match up, Sid has been doing a great job at Aces Falling. There are two missions that I recall that the obvious choices are the Albatroses, Halbs, Nieuports and Sopwith Tripes. I consider it a very balanced match. There are a couple missions with DVII and Nieuports and the Nieups chew the DVII without any ceremony (due to the bad DVII FM I reckon, but they do chew the DVII). The DVII is also a very good match for the SE5a. I just think the Pfalz and the Pup should be removed from these missions.

What I think the Camel / Dr1 are so popular is because they are a very similar match, although they have two different styles. A good Dr1 pilot will not necessarily excel on the Camel and vice versa, but they are evenly matched. Then, when you master one of them, or both, it is really a pleasure to fly against each other in servers like Aces Falling. The machine becomes irrelevant and what matters is the pilot. Together with their agility, that allows a fencing match type of duel, this is one of the reasons why they are so popular.
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#52 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 19:41

What I think the Camel / Dr1 are so popular is because they are a very similar match, although they have two different styles. A good Dr1 pilot will not necessarily excel on the Camel and vice versa, but they are evenly matched. Then, when you master one of them, or both, it is really a pleasure to fly against each other in servers like Aces Falling. The machine becomes irrelevant and what matters is the pilot. Together with their agility, that allows a fencing match type of duel, this is one of the reasons why they are so popular.

… and this is well put Mr.SeaW0lf, I will agree with that 100 %
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#53 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 19:51

Anyone saying "it is the men not the machines" should be sentenced to 100 rounds DH2 vs DR1


that said, yes camel and dr.1 combine but not really with historical stats and the other planeset. Once on the field, they pretty much dominate. boring for me. I like dolphins.
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#54 SeaW0lf

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 19:54

What I think the Camel / Dr1 are so popular is because they are a very similar match, although they have two different styles. A good Dr1 pilot will not necessarily excel on the Camel and vice versa, but they are evenly matched. Then, when you master one of them, or both, it is really a pleasure to fly against each other in servers like Aces Falling. The machine becomes irrelevant and what matters is the pilot. Together with their agility, that allows a fencing match type of duel, this is one of the reasons why they are so popular.

… and this is well put Mr.SeaW0lf, I will agree with that 100 %

Tks, Sahaj.
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#55 SeaW0lf

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 19:58

Anyone saying "it is the men not the machines" should be sentenced to 100 rounds DH2 vs DR1.

Guilty as charged :D
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#56 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 20:55

Anyone saying "it is the men not the machines" should be sentenced to 100 rounds DH2 vs DR1


that said, yes camel and dr.1 combine but not really with historical stats and the other planeset. Once on the field, they pretty much dominate. boring for me. I like dolphins.


Guys,

do not look at it one sided, you repeat only gavagai's propaganda from all those years in which he beats it to death in every topic. They dominate in furballs and of course they do ! Its their purpose, deadly dogfighters, two of the best dogfighters of the war and especially on servers where furballs are very common you see them dominate by players who mastered them. Did you ever played a campaign, an event, a long strategic mission ? once you do it, and those who did know it very well, then you will see why they were eventually pulled out of service.

Dogfight servers is not the ultimate source from which to draw conclusions as to how the FMs ought to be tweaked. basta.

S!
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#57 gavagai

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 21:18

Dogfight servers is not the ultimate source from which to draw conclusions as to how the FMs ought to be tweaked. basta.

Correct. It is data that should drive FM tweaks. The data is on the side of the Camel and Dr.I being out of proportion to our other scouts.
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#58 SeaW0lf

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 21:29

Dogfight servers is not the ultimate source from which to draw conclusions as to how the FMs ought to be tweaked. basta.

Correct. It is data that should drive FM tweaks. The data is on the side of the Camel and Dr.I being out of proportion to our other scouts.

Think about it, if you rather prefer to underpower the Camel / Dr1 to be proportional to other planes that are in fact underpowered, we would have two different games in one. A planeset that tops the speed on the DVa, around 170km/h, with all other planes behind it, including the Camel / Dr1, and another plane set composed of the DVIIF, Spads and SE5a that goes from 200/220km/h (the DVII is irrelevant, since even the Nieups dominate it). And you have a gap of 30km/h in the middle with no planes. Then I can say that ROF would be as dead as a doornail. It would be better to sell two different games.

This compensation philosophy to screw what is good to compensate for what's bad is what makes the whole world blind. People do this a lot with flak, which ruins the gameplay.

I rather complain about the speeds and FMs of the Albatros series, the Pup, the DVII and the N28 / Pfalz. They are the ones that need attention. Otherwise you don't have a handful of wrong FMs, but almost the whole planeset wrong. That would be great.
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#59 gavagai

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 22:37

Fond of strawmen, seawolf?
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#60 JoeCrow

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 22:52

Dogfight servers is not the ultimate source from which to draw conclusions as to how the FMs ought to be tweaked. basta.

Correct. It is data that should drive FM tweaks. The data is on the side of the Camel and Dr.I being out of proportion to our other scouts.

That's assuming that you know what you are talking about in the first place of course!
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#61 SeaW0lf

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 23:16

Fond of strawmen, seawolf?

I see the situation very black and white, with no gray areas. I even had to research strawmen. Not really fond of it.

I indeed think that what you suggest will create a huge gap in between two set of planes. Not a solution, but even more problems. The more people come up with data and not reason, the more people give the excuse for someone to say that every data is debatable.

I think Pat Wilson was right when he said that what should be done is a balance in between planes, not much about data. This plane should be faster than this one, slower than the other, and that one more maneuverable, and so on.

Perhaps what created all the discrepancies in the game was just this obsession with data.

—–edit—–
I said what I said because I think the Camel and the Dr1 are about right (I told you this thinking of mine in another thread) and some other planes are the ones that need FM fixes, especially the Albatros series and the DVII. Therefore, slowing down the Camel / Dr1 would ruin two more FMs for the sake of other wrong FMs. And create the aforementioned speed gap in between two distinct set of planes; A disaster in my opinion, nothing related to strawmen.
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#62 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 21:03

Hate to be a necro, but here is something of a controlled test, because a few of us have been asked to pull a list of bugs together. There is hope. If you know of real bugs (not flight model wishes or features) then let me know here or PM me.

I sat on the airfield with SYN_Dan, he in a N17 and me in a HP400. I fired a single Lewis at his rudder from the side gunner position and it took multiple bursts to knock the rudder off, at least 8 rounds according to Dan and my eye.

Now, the damage model does not show after the first burst, and sometimes not after the second burst (we did this a few times), then holes appear, and then the rudder falls off. At least 4 multiple bursts of 3 or more bullets each. I was close enough not to miss, or didn't miss very often. No video but screenshots taken if you wish, but try it for yourself.

What I suggest is happening is that the rudder may take damage and not appear to be damaged to the N17 pilot. Further damage may occur to the N17 rudder and the pilot makes a hard turn stressing the rudder, which then falls off. It appears that the rudder falls off with very little damage, but it is the combination of stress during dogfight maneuvers which could be causing this.

Again, try it for yourself. Have someone spawn in a N17, you as a gunner with a single Lewis and get close together. Fire as short a burst as possible at the rudder, then another, and another. Let me know if your experience is different from ours.

Still, it comes off much easier than other similar rudders (Dr1, EIII, Pfalz, Halb D2) so I will be reporting regardless.
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#63 gavagai

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 21:39

From what angle did you fire at the rudder? With the side gunner it sounds like you fired at the rudder with its largest surface area exposed. What we notice is that it takes hits and comes off easily from dead astern.

Also, there was definitely a change somewhere along the way. It wasn't always a glass rudder.
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#64 SeaW0lf

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 22:18


It as the wind blew from Halberstadt :xx: :(

This video is old in the thread, but it is never enough as a reminder. And what really stands out is that everyone who flies Nieuports experiences regularly the glass rudder effect. To be honest, I don't think I ever lost a rudder in any other type of aircraft in ROF.

To me, it is more than proved as a "real" bug. If we were talking about Albs DIII and DVa loosing bottom wings I could even agree. And Gavagai has a point; it does not mean you can shoot it from every direction. A bug always has its particularities. And if it only came off with lateral shots, the better, because usually we are being shot at from high angles.
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#65 Surfimp

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 22:31

I would like for this rudder thing to be fixed as well, if there is really hope of some bugfixes.

The only times I've ever seen a rudder come off, or had it happen to me, was with the N11 and N17.

If you watch the end of this video, you'll see the N11's rudder pop off after a pretty epic dogfight. Can't quite tell but it looks like the Albie got a quick burst in.

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#66 SeaW0lf

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 22:46

It looks like a ram at the end from the Albatros (the image don't show if the Alb got its prop clipped), but the fact that it popped just the rudder is an indication of the problem. But there are so many accounts of it that to talk about the Nieuports glass ruder is to carry coal to Newcastle. The devs might know about it too.

In my opinion we just have to keep reporting the bug so maybe one day they will fix it.
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#67 Surfimp

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 22:46

One other thought, though: in reviewing both the above videos, it seems like the Nieup's rudders popped off after very close-range passes with other planes.

EDIT: I see this is what you're saying, too, SeaW0lf.

This is maybe crazy, but could it be possible that the collision detection for the rudder is off somewhat, allowing it to get "knocked off" even though the planes seem like they pass without a hit?

Only reason I ask is because I had this kind of "lag collision" happen last night in MP. Granted it wasn't the rudder that popped off the Dr.1, but still, for me it was if nothing happened, for the Dr.1 it was like a wing got clipped or something:

At 0:21

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#68 SeaW0lf

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 22:57

I just saw the video comments and Zebra also thinks it is a ram (the Nieup video). Or maybe a near miss, and you might have solved the riddle. From what I remember, close passes is what takes to clip my rudder. Or maybe it is a mix of collision detection and damage model.
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#69 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 08:27

Not meaning to flog the horse here fellows, but we need something more than anecdotal evidence, or combat videos where we can't really be sure of what damage the rudder has taken along the way (as I saw no visible damage to N17 rudder for several confirmed rounds hit sitting on the grass). It just isn't close to proving anything unfortunately.

If you think it might be a certain angle of shot that takes it off quickly, then let's test that on an airfield where it can be controlled.

RE: "close misses" or "lag collision"

If a collision box error, then it might be captured on video. All videos above appear as close contacts. Perhaps if a test was conducted online the issue of even slight connection lag/ping difference between players may make a collision appear as if only a close pass happened. A split second would make all the difference on video from a certain player's perspective!

The fact that one aircraft can fly away from a glancing collision apparently undamaged is not new, and believe it was explained by a limit in the game engine where kinetic energy of one plane over the other (and perhaps the different types of bits that make contact, i.e. landing gear verses wing, prop verses rudder…) is the deciding factor.

Hope you can tell that I'm trying to be positive in my critique of the evidence thus far, and quest for something more objective.
:S!:
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#70 =HillBilly=

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 12:06

The Nieuports had a very weak rudder attachment, one bullet in the right place bye bye.Maybe in ROF it is a little over board, maybe not.http://www.finemodelworks.com/arizona-models/reference/Thumbs/Aircraft/France/Nieuport/17/Nieuport_17.html

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#71 SeaW0lf

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 14:36

The Nieuports had a very weak rudder attachment, one bullet in the right place bye bye.Maybe in ROF it is a little over board, maybe not.http://www.finemodelworks.com/arizona-models/reference/Thumbs/Aircraft/France/Nieuport/17/Nieuport_17.html

The question is, we all know the Albatros problems with the lower wing, we all know the Dr1 problems with the top wing… Why it was never historically acknowledged the problem with Nieuport rudders? It makes no sense. The plane would probably have a history of crashes and to be grounded for investigation, like the others were.

All videos above appear as close contacts.

The video from =AxA=V.Alexx is not even a near miss. They just cross ways and the rudder pops like it was handpicked by a ghost. If something happened, it can only be a bug / misplaced damage box. I don't ever recall being hammed in a near miss in more than a year playing every day, although I recall losing my Nieuport rudder dozens of times. Many of them were while spinning around with the enemy, hence why I think Surfimp might have something there.
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#72 =HillBilly=

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 15:20

A bug no I don't believe so, a very accurate damage model yes, looking at the drawings you can see a single pull pin holding the rudder on, what a dumb idea for a war plane.
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#73 SeaW0lf

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 16:15

A bug no I don't believe so, a very accurate damage model yes, looking at the drawings you can see a single pull pin holding the rudder on, what a dumb idea for a war plane.

How do you explain the ghost shots (that don't exist) that take the rudder? How we never heard of anedoctal accounts about it during the war? You seem to try to justify the unjustifiable.
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#74 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 16:34

A bug no I don't believe so, a very accurate damage model yes, looking at the drawings you can see a single pull pin holding the rudder on, what a dumb idea for a war plane.

How do you explain the ghost shots (that don't exist) that take the rudder?

You got a mission log of that? Most likely you took damage and then overstressed the aircraft.
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#75 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 16:43

The video from =AxA=V.Alexx is not even a near miss. They just cross ways and the rudder pops like it was handpicked by a ghost. If something happened, it can only be a bug / misplaced damage box. I don't ever recall being hammed in a near miss in more than a year playing every day, although I recall losing my Nieuport rudder dozens of times. Many of them were while spinning around with the enemy, hence why I think Surfimp might have something there.

Was the video in MP or single player? If it was in single player, all aircraft create prop wash that could have torn a damaged N17 rudder off. The N17 was clearly damaged already, it was smoking after all…

If it was a MP dogfight then no prop wash, but again, ping difference could very well account for the perceived distance between the aircraft on the video, where in fact contact could have been made pulling the rudder off.

You wanting to prove ghosts (or bugs) by anecdotal evidence doesn't make your opinion any more valid than the equally valid alternatives. Thus we need a new objective test to discriminate between the alternative theories. That's science. Unfortunately there is no conclusive proof of anything in these videos.
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#76 =HillBilly=

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 16:44

SeaW0lf I have had my rudder shot off more often in the DVa than the N17 is this a bug too, or a good damage model?
And flying the E III in a steep dive the rudder is the first thing to go, is this a bug? Seeing bugs where no bugs exist is looking for things to complain about. Enjoy the sim for what it is.
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#77 ST_ami7b5

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 17:40

Stop talking and fight at Aces Falling
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#78 SeaW0lf

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 17:41

Oh, well, lots of people seem to see the same problem / bug. And it is not shot off; it just pops off with the "turbulence" of the enemy.

Honestly, I never saw any plane lose a rudder to my guns, and I have been shooting planes a lot. Being shot too, for that matter. At the other hand, I have often seen Nieuports loose the rudder to my guns, only Nieuports. Now, if you are talking to be sprayed beaten by machinegun, flak, ground fire, with pieces flying all over, then you might have lost other planes rudders along with wings too, fuselage, undercarriage and so on so forth.

From what I experience, it is a bug, not a weakness of the plane. And it happens frequently, two, three times in a row in servers like Aces Falling.

Now, if every bug report that is not "alien" to flying and that regards accuracy is taken as a complain…
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#79 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 18:04

If the rudder is just falling off without any damage to the aircraft, that should be easy to prove with a mission log from the stats webpage. If you won't even bother to post an example of that, then there is very little chance that anyone is going to look at this "bug".
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#80 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 19:26

The video from =AxA=V.Alexx is not even a near miss. They just cross ways and the rudder pops like it was handpicked by a ghost. If something happened, it can only be a bug / misplaced damage box.

No. It is a network issue. Sending information over the net takes time, but even though very little, the representations on screen are different, not virtually the same over the net. Client side prediction is usally used to mask that. Depending on what network code is modeled (whos shots count for damage etc.. it is normal that there are some discrepancies…

Especially on lower end machines with lower frame rates, great distances with high ping and so on, that is normal.

IF it was "a hitbox" you could easily reproduce it by flying your prop in QMB in its tail..

If the rudder is just falling off without any damage to the aircraft, that should be easy to prove with a mission log from the stats webpage. If you won't even bother to post an example of that, then there is very little chance that anyone is going to look at this "bug".

no, it won´t
the accuracy of the stats is not reliably covering this, nor does it give types of damage other then damage/wounded



overall, you can also lose the Nieuport rudder in SP but it seems only at certain shooting angles, it might be a bit of bug, but hey, a minor one because lets face it: Hillbilly is right, a single bullet through the rudder pole would mean desaster in the real world, too.
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