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Heavy Artillery - Big guns


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#1 Genius

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 21:31

Hi all,

To begining, if somebody can help me on this post: riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=348&t=38306

Some works in progress:


French Artillery - "Artillerie Lourde sur Voie Ferrée" (A.L.V.F.)


The 305 mm canon with Schneider sliding recoil (Canon de 305 Modèle 1906/10 sur affut truck à glissement Schneider)


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I have other canon model with this same truck if i want (i have other profile of a 320 and 370 mm model 1915).

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Here a original 320mm version: Image


Statuts:
- 2390 polygons
- only central and rear truck is finished (just the attach in the to do list)
- I don't do the front truck because i want to do a copy of the rear truck but i have too many polygons on this (only the 12 weels are 720 polygons, all the rear truck have approx. 1300 polygons)
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#2 Waxworks

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 21:44

Would it be possible to make a field version of the British naval 6" gun as here: BL 6-inch Mk VII field gun?

It is just the naval gun mounted on a basic improvised carriage. The British have a lack of heavier longer ranged counter battery artillery.
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#3 Genius

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 21:58

An other French Artillery - "Artillerie Lourde sur Voie Ferrée" (A.L.V.F.)


The 194 mm canon "Tout Azimut" (TAZ):

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An original 194 mm TAZ version

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Statuts:
- 1154 polygons
- I don't do all the train weels for same reason of the 305 mm (and i d'ont know the spacing of rails , it's 60 cm ("voie de 60")or a 1435 mm ?)
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#4 Genius

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 22:21

The German Sk L/45 - "Langer Max" 38 cm canon.

1) The SK L/45 on a "Bettungsschiessgerüst" emplacement (source:html2.free.fr/canons/canmax.htm) - a 1916-1917 emplacement type.

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An original:

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Status:

- 1211 polygons
- 3D model completed

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#5 LordNeuro_Srb

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 22:33

Wow gr8 work, and somthing teat is missing in rof. Genius gr8 work, i hope u will manage to get it in rof and working. It would add much more to mission mekers and to immersion in rof.
:S!:
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#6 Genius

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 22:41

An other version of the German Sk L/45 - "Langer Max" 38 cm canon.

1) The SK L/45 on a "Eisenbahn und Bettungsschiessgerüst Betonbettung" emplacement (source:html2.free.fr/canons/canmax.htm) - a 1918 emplacement type.

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Original:

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2) An a "Eisenbahn und Bettungsschiessgerüst Bettung mit Eisenunterba" a train emplacement, i use the same 3D model (1918 type)

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Original:

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Statuts:
- 3D model not finished
- 480 to 670 polygons
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#7 Genius

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 12:23

Would it be possible to make a field version of the British naval 6" gun as here: BL 6-inch Mk VII field gun?

It is just the naval gun mounted on a basic improvised carriage. The British have a lack of heavier longer ranged counter battery artillery.


Re,

Image

1439 polygons
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#8 SYN_Vander

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 19:33

Looking good Genius! Heavy artillery is sorely needed.
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#9 hq_Jorri

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 20:44

I don't know much about modeling, but your smoothing seems way off..

Are you working with solids?
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#10 Genius

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 22:54

I don't know much about modeling, but your smoothing seems way off..

Are you working with solids?

Sorry, I don't understand.

Wich parts ?

I use basic mesh (cube, plane, cylinder) and use smooth shading to limit number of polygons.

Cylinder use a lot of polygons, for example a cylinder with:
- 9 vertex = 32 polygons
- 13 vertex = 48 polygons
- 19 vertex = 72 polygons

If you have 28 wheels of 48 polygons = 1344 polygons (the limit in LOD0 on SDK manual are 3000 poly)
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#11 Genius

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 23:05

Some update in langer max canon (railway version)

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Status:
2914 polygons (with approx. 900 polys for weels)
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#12 hq_Jorri

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 10:36

Not to demotivate your great efforts, but you need serious training from an experienced modeler or at least some very good tutorials before you proceed any further in the wrong direction as you are doing now.

Its unfortunate that the RoF community is lacking such a person, although Vander has made excellent progress in teachin himself to model so perhaps he might be of help.
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#13 M.H

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 13:15

Is the gun and the trailer one object ?
In blender or do you use a score of many objects to construct one object ?
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#14 Genius

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 14:26

Not to demotivate your great efforts, but you need serious training from an experienced modeler or at least some very good tutorials before you proceed any further in the wrong direction as you are doing now.

Its unfortunate that the RoF community is lacking such a person, although Vander has made excellent progress in teachin himself to model so perhaps he might be of help.

Re,

I accept all constructive criticism and I recognize that I am only a beginner in 3D modeling.

But I'd love you to tell me what's wrong exactly because I did not understand what you wanted to say in your previous message (i don't speek English very well, i'm french… :D , and i use most of Google translator). Can you post me a screens to explain ?

May be I would get a few points to improve.

Just to explain, I do a lot of effort to learn all the intricacies of 3D modeling but it does not happen in a few days (I currently spend more time in modeling than playing ROF and i have a job).

Sincerely ;)
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#15 Genius

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 14:32

Is the gun and the trailer one object ?
In blender or do you use a score of many objects to construct one object ?

The gun and the trailer are two objects but the gun is not finished yet (in the game we are one block with multiple objects).

I want to use, as soon as possible, same part of object to limit size of textures (same weels, same parts of canon, front/rear truck, etc…).

Cheers :S!:
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#16 M.H

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 14:48

Wow , I need to try my hand at blender again . Do you use repeated duplication of plane or do you just modify a cube .
merci
P.s. - I tried to 3D model a while ago but failed miserably . Now my computer mouse passed away and I can't use blender properly anymore cuz I don't yet (but will get soon) have a new one.
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#17 hq_Jorri

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 15:01

Hi Genius,

I'm not a modeler myself, and I might actually have been wrong with my previous statement.

do know thre are some very good tutorials included with 3dsMax that might be of help.

I wish there was someone more experienced in modeling here to help newcomers such as yourself make a better start :( Is there nobody who makes 3D models in the French RoF community who can help?
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#18 lederhosen

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 20:37

errr

with the range these guns must have…would one actually find one near the front??
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#19 actionjoe

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 20:55

with the range these guns must have…would one actually find one near the front??

They keep their accuracy up to 20km (and they were indeed made for this, striking HQ/railway stations, fortifications,etc… deep on the enemy rears), so yes they were quite close to the front.

Some infos about their use on Verdun 1917 offensive (in french)

And sorry, can't help it either on them, but,

Courage, on(enfin, tu) les aura! ;)
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#20 Genius

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 23:38

Thanks all,

For M.H., for beginning i use the basic mesh closest to the modeled object. Then at each change in size / shape of object i extruded (E) and modify vertex (G for Grab or S for Scale) for that best resembles at the object.

Sometimes, i do a loop cut (CTRL+R) in basic mesh and i modify my oject by moving some vertex.
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#21 M.H

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 06:26

Thanks for those tips . Much appreciated . merci :)
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#22 Habu

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 08:28

Courage Génius, je ne peux pas t'aider, mais juste d'encourager.

J'ai trouvé ça si ça peut t'aider, c'est pour la version 9, mais le gros du boulot doit s'apparenter à la version 8.
http://www.siteduzer...-pour-les-zeros" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.siteduzer...m/informatique/ … -les-zeros
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#23 jeanba4

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:55

Genius, you must start somewhere, so keep on
Maybe you can find poeple on C6 (outside the RoF communauty) to help you ?
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#24 Genius

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 22:32

Salut Phoenix (As Habu) et Jeanba!

Merci pour vos encouragements.

Le site du zero est une vrai mine d'or est je l'utilise déjà pour compléter mon apprentissage du logiciel.
Perso, je préfère utiliser blender que je trouve plus intuitif.

Pour l'instant ce projet n'est qu'à ses débuts et je souhaite finaliser le projet sur les forts de verdun où l'on m'a gentiment proposé de l'aide avant de continuer.

Une fois fini, je pourrais avancer sur ce projet et en effet demander de l'aide, surtout côté texturing (mais avant il faut finaliser le modèle 3d et définir la carte uv)

A+

Google traduction

Hi Phoenix (As Habu) et Jeanba!

Thank you for your encouragement.

The "site du zero" is a real gold mine is I already use to supplement my learning software.
Personally, I prefer to use blender which I find more intuitive.

For now the project is in its infancy and I hope to finalize the draft of the forts of Verdun where they kindly offered my help before continuing.

Once finished, I could move forward on this project and indeed ask for help, especially side texturing (but before it must finalize the 3d model and define the uv map)

A+
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#25 Genius

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 22:51

Hi all,

I have adjusted different 3D model.

Here the most advanced:

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By cons I have great difficulty in reducing the number of polygons :? even if i modeled the wheels with plane + cylinder without circle face (thanks Syn_Vander for this tips). Actually model have approx. 3900 tri.
I don't know if the recommanded limit is the same for buildings ?. I think I can greatly reduce polygons in other lod removing the cylinders and keeping only the exterior plane + simply model of bogey.

This model have:
- 1104 tri for the artillery train
- 2790 tri for the two bogeys with:
* 24 shock absorber = 960 tri
* 24 cylinder without face = 768 tri
* 2 bogeys structure = 704 tri
* 24 rotation axis = 192 tri
* 24 x 2 planes = 96 tri
* miscellaneous = 70 tri

Before using certain parts of other models (mainly wheels), I would like to know your opinion to avoid wrong.

Other 3D model not finished (except Skl/45 BETTUNGSSHIESSGERÛST and BL 6 inch):

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#26 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 00:03

If you talked to SYN_Vander you likely have his SDK for helping to put 3D models into RoF mentioned HERE Post #8. The model as seen at a distance will have less detail by making several extra LOD models with less polygons.

From what I read you are approaching the build correctly, extrude face, manipulate vertices or points to make the shape, and so on. Build on a basic structure much like working with clay. For other people they like to subdivide, so it is more like sculpture. Find your style, but start with a simple project first. I'm just learning to put things in game as well.

I would suggest NOT putting any 3D detail that will not be seen easily. You mentioned a lot of polys used on wheel suspension and springs. Keep the model simple by using the 2D texture to add detail instead of polys/faces. You will be surprised by what a good texture can do for a basic model.

I am sure you've seen Vander's thread on naval drifters. The basic model in the first post is the same as appears at the end in the video HERE. A simple model is transformed into a great addition to the game by animations, damage model, and texture tricks. Drop shadows are your friends… :D
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#27 MarcoRossolini

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:50

I suppose the question the questions you have to ask is what is going to be seen from 3000 feet? I doubt that little swivel stool thing will, so cut it. I have very little knowledge of 3d modelling but I've seen plenty of it in computer games and I bet if you made those stairs on the left below the gun barrel into just one diagonal flat surface and then made up a texture with stairs on it that would work.
Some of the lower parts where its mounted on the railway could be done away with as well and replaced with a flat surface.

Ignore me if it's not what you're looking for, I don't know anything.
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#28 Genius

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 22:26

Re,

Thanks for your help.

I have remodeled the 2 bogeys and i have deleted some minor objects.

I have now 2924 tri ! :D

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Bye
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#29 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 22:59

If I read your post correctly, has Vander told you about using the alpha channel of the texture to cut 'windows' into your model? For example, rather than make a high poly-count ladder, just use a thin rectangular 'slab' with 6 faces and then cut the ladder 'spaces' between the rungs with alpha channel edit.

Black in alpha channel means that no 3D mesh will appear at that spot when rendered in-game. So you -could- make square 3D wheels and round them in 2D alpha channel, but it won't look quite correct because of the edges exposed. Use it only on thin areas, like windows, ladders, or handrails.

Also remember that any flight of bombers will only ever encounter one of these rail guns, so keeping poly count low is not as critical as ships since many of those could be on the map at same time. Correct me if wrong, those who know better… :?
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#30 Genius

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 22:21

Re,

For Weels, i refer to this answers:

Wheels are normally modeled in 3d. To save polygons, you can only model the rim of a wheel and use a square polygon with alpha texture for the spokes in a wheel. This is how it's done for RoF vehicles.
riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=555659#p555659

I understand this:

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The guns were usually by 2 or 4 pieces (French doctrine).

For large pieces of artillery (305 mm or more) shots were made on curved track (the guns are fixed azimuth). This allowed:
1) have a field adjustable firing azimuth (moving train on the curve)
2) facilitate the brake parts during recoil (more friction)

Recon and artillery adjustment was essential for the effectiveness of long-range shots (you can see also a bréguet on the picture below)and counter artillery

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For other guns, shooting can be done in azimuth, there was greater flexibility.

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#31 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 10:45

I really like your model of the 194 mm artillery pieces, they can travel on the 60 cm raillines on the RoF map, according to the document below, and do not need the special railway 'sidings' like the bigger 305 mm gun. Was the 305 mm gun also used in groups of four?

Why not concentrate on the 194 mm guns? They would be more flexible targets, and can appear anywhere on the map.

EDIT: Maybe you have this PDF (LINK HERE). It is a WWI French document translated to English: a lecture on the general organization and use of high-powered heavy artillery. Discusses the role, organization, mission, operation, and materiel of heavy artillery. A nice read.

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From the image below, perhaps you will also need another car for the 305 mm ammunition and crane.
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#32 Genius

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 13:11

Hi, Thanks for your document.

Other great source are here:
Railway Artillery - Volume 1
Railway Artillery - volume 2

The 305 mm or 274 / 320 / 340 / 370 mm guns with the same recoil track ("affut a glissement schneider") of the modeled are using by group of 2 or 4. Other are on St-Chamond or Batignolles mount.

The french railway artillery at verdun on august 1917 are the following units implemented (source: albindenis.free.fr/Site_escadrille/ALGP_Guy_Francois.htm):

12th group RALGP 77th ( 34th and 35th batteries ): 4 howitzers 400mm battery south of Woods Sartelles near Baleycourt orders EC Boissonnet .
11th Group 78th RALGP ( 31st and 32nd batteries ): 4 x 370mm howitzers in battery Bevaux walls and the orders of the EC Bourély .
25th Battery 73th RALGP 2 mortars 370 Fromeréville ( Capt. Leroy ) .
22th Battery 77th RALGP 2 guns 340 Mle 1912 Tavannes tunnel and ravine Hinvaux ( Capt. Gauthier- Villars ) .
Fourth group of 78th RALGP 4 guns 32 cm Mle 70-81 on cobs Thierville (EC Lawrence).
Third group of 77th RALGP 4 guns 32 cm Mle 70-84 on cobs Recicourt (EC Barral ) .
First group of 77th RALGP 4 guns 32 cm Mle 70-84 on the ears of St. Bartholomew (EC Mannheim).
Second group of 78th RALGP 4 guns 32 cm Mle 70-84 on the bottom of the ears Belrupt (EC Rolland ) .
25th Battery 78th RALGP 2 guns 305 B battery barracks Marceau and the ravine Valtoline ( Lieutenant Commander Stapfer ) .
23th Battery 78th RALGP 2 guns 305 Mle 93-96 G on cobs Courcelles then Sartelles ( Capt. Buat ) .

19th Battery 77th RALGP 2 guns 285mm over the ears of aviation Faubourg Pavé ( Ltt Causse ) .
7 batteries totaling 28 mortars 270 Mle 1889 coast forest of Hesse Bourrus aux Bois , near Fort Marre, the ravine and gully Helly vines were made ​​available to the Army Corps.
1 group of 8 guns 240 TR Hesse Forest at Fromeréville at Bethelainville wood .
1 group of 9 guns 240 Mle 1884 tractors near Arpens , Hospices and Claire Coast.
2nd Battery 74th RALGP 4 pieces 19 cm Mle 70-93 ( Lieutenant Ship Kerdudo ) .
Eight 164 mm guns navy Belleville, Roman Camp near Fort Souville and Farm Bertrame (1st, 2nd , 6th and 7th mobile batteries marine gunners ) .
5 fixed guns to 138 mm Marine Wood Bourrus in the forest of Hesse in Ranzières to Jaulny and one room on a houseboat .


For limit the space texture, i want to use maximum of the same object (like weels) and for this i will do finish one 3d model completely(no matter which) with uv map and copy parts of them for other models.

Sincerely. :S!:
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#33 Genius

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:10

News,

Beginning the Uv-mapping

I have determinated this texture surface:

Map: 2048x2048 = 4194 Kpixels

305mm: 774 Kpixels
194 mm: 492 Kpixels
Skl45 train: 774 Kpixels
Skl45 fixed 676 Kpixels
Bl 6 inch: 65 Kpixels
Misceleanous: 65 Kpixels

Free space texture : 1 348 Kpixels (approx. four-five 512x512 textures)

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Edit (update):

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#34 Markow

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 20:58

? what a bomb that destroy ?
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campribV.png


#35 SeaW0lf

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 22:57

Awesome work.
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"There will be honor enough for us all."

#36 MarcoRossolini

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:28

Looking good… :)
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#37 SeaW0lf

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:05

It makes me envy those who master that kind of software :mrgreen: I would go ballistic with it (no pun intended) and would probably lose my job as a consequence :D :x
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"There will be honor enough for us all."

#38 Genius

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 22:30

Hi all,

Update, uv mapping of skl/45 train are finished.

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#39 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 23:37

deleted post
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#40 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 23:44

Just curious genius, but will UV mapping in Blender export properly to Max? I don't know much about Max.

There were some hurdles (now overcome) with just getting the torpedoboot mesh to import properly into 3DSMax. Using OBJ seemed to be the least bothersome, but UV mapping may be different. Give one a try before going the complete distance with all of them in Blender. Let us know what happens.

You wrote in other thread:

Uv mapping are made on wings3D or 3DS MAX ? you are using a share texture ?
For export, i use export as object (.obj), The export in 3DS Max not working with 3DS MAX 2008.
Haven't tried to UV map the torpedoboots yet since still detailing the mesh, but yes, plan is to share texture between the two ships currently modeled since they are very similar configuration. Mapping in Wings3D is terrible BTW.

As I mentioned earlier in other thread, OBJ is the way to go, because 3DS format will not tolerate 4 or 5-sided polys in the mesh, everything must be triangles. 3DS is a very old file standard, and not robust at all… Even when using OBJ, the mesh import into Max has been subdivided into triangles –see the Max image of file import in the torpedoboot thread.

THEREFORE, I wonder what will happen with UV maps made on one mesh, when the Max imported mesh is then subdivided in a similar fashion. Since it is subdivided, likely not be an issue, but who knows until it is tried.
:S!:
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