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Area of interest for a possible Italian Front Map


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#1 Fafnir6

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 07:28

Hello,

The maps found on this page: http://www.firstworl...talianfront.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.firstworl...talianfront.htm encompass the entire Italian front. By my calculations, this is similar in size to the Western front map we currently enjoy in RoF (but with ~10% of the area covered by ocean). My question is this: would the area in these maps be suitable for air operations in a potential RoF Italian add-on? It would allow for action from 1915 to 1918. The Austrian seaplane bases at Trieste and such would be present so those actions could be undertaken. What are your thoughts?

If this area is good, then I can limit my searches for period references (towns, airbases, etc) and of aerial photographs to provide a basis for ground texture creation using these maps as a guideline. We have the SDK and some people have already made custom maps. If I can and others can gather sufficient historical resources, perhaps a map creation can be undertaken.

Cheers,

Fafnir6
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#2 M.H

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 10:46

We all want new maps . They are not in the Devs development plans yet . Dunno about modders ?
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#3 PCDurum

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 11:43

I would imagine all the increased elevation detail would be harder work than the Western front maps were to do and would probably tax CPU and frame rates iff not done correctly.

I for one can't think of a more deserving theatre for a new ROF map than the Italian Front.I would take anything offered by 777 in this regard tho much of the seaplane activity was further south around Brindisi and the fortified port of Pola in the Adriatic sea so ideally an Adriatic map would be great too!

I truelly want to be enthusiastic about the possibilities of an Italian Front but my common sense tells me we will see man land on Mars before we see Oeffags over the Isonzo! But hope does spring eternal! :)

ps: Maybe modding is the only answer in the end but as the tools are currently just too difficult to use by most this too would be a mammoth task. I could and would offer lots of detail on the Austrian side of things and would contribute and offer support in whatever way I could.
A big thumbs up from me obviously! :S!:
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#4 SeaW0lf

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 12:20

I can imagine flying over the Alps… That would be something.
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#5 MarcoRossolini

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 14:36

New Maps are possible, if you have the skill and courage, the "inspiration island" map is fan made by Difis, though I'm not sure how much he was supported by 777.
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#6 SeaW0lf

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 04:26

New Maps are possible, if you have the skill and courage, the "inspiration island" map is fan made by Difis, though I'm not sure how much he was supported by 777.

Is it done with the mission editor? I searched a bit and found that you ply the terrain with the "displacement " tab. Would be nice to have terrain accuracy, especially in the case of the Alps.
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#7 PCDurum

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 16:58

It certainly can be done I think and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from trying! I have made realistic detailed 3D maps for other games using totally different software than is used for ROF but know it would require long hours and lots of bloody lips.
It is possible to download reasonably accurate geographical terrain accurately onto Google map images to create realistic terrain but all said and done i'm not sure that would work in the current ROF engine.It still would take a massive amount of work to add the detail & do a realistic Isonzo map from scratch. Personally I would only attempt it iff it was to be part of a vanilla career format!
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#8 SeaW0lf

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 23:20

I was thinking about Google Earth and use key points with their correct altitude. It also gives a good idea about the vegetation, rocky and snowy terrain. It would give a fairly accurate Alps terrain, but the job would be massive.
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#9 TheBlackPenguin

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 05:09

I'd buy it :).
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#10 SeaW0lf

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 06:17

Well, I don't know if there is a way to kilt it together afterwards, but we could gather a group so that everyone can make an accurate section of the Alps. Then a supervisor could orient the group (or another group) in finishing the textures on the whole map (cities/rivers/vegetation/rock/snow/etc.).

With the "kilt approach", we could build such a map, accurate, perhaps in less than a year. But I am just imagining things, because I don't know if this is possible, if people would want to make it, if the terrain creator would be understandable to everyone or if 777 would accept it.

This together with the research suggested by Fafnir6.
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#11 SeaW0lf

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 06:22

But I just say this because the Alps would be a blast, something unique in the game. It would be well worth the effort.
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#12 Avimimus

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 13:51

One of the things I'm curious about - what is the highest airfield used in WWI?

Perhaps two small maps? One of the Adriatic and one of the Alps? I wonder if the game engine would require any updates to support the alps…
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#13 Fafnir6

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 06:54

The first step in this process would be to isolate appropriate area(s) for the map. Once we have that in place, then we can start accumulating all the necessary information to populate said area. The map I posted in my first post would encompass all the major LAND conflicts on the Italian front nicely…But, as PCDurum noted, the famous seaplane activity occurred further South. Also, unlike the Western Front, the Italian front moved very significantly between 1917 and 1918. My question there is would it make more sense to do a smaller Piave Front map for late 1917 & 1918 (so everyone can get their SVAs, A.1s and Aviatik-Bergs) and a smaller Isonzo Front map for 1915-1917? An Adriatic map could also be done in the spirit of the current Channel map, as noted by Avimimus in the appropriate area. Sooooo…1 huge map or 2-3 smaller maps and once that is settled, which areas? We have the awesome seaplane mechanics in RoF and it would be shame not to render the Adriatic battles with that in hand. Also, there are large bombers in RoF currently. How could that be incorporated? The Austrians used Gotha G.IVs and the Italians had their line of capable Capronis. Where were they based and where did they attack? A larger map might be better for that.

I should also note that it has come to my attention that the Corpo Aeronautica Militare (The RoF Italian community) has apparently begun an Italian Front Map project (I looked on their forums but I can't read Italian so navigation was difficult to say the least). Perhaps we could pool our resources with them and get this front in RoF? If additional resources are needed we might be able to run some sort of kickstarter to get this going (I would shell out quite a few bucks to fly for the Austro-Hungarians in RoF).

Any thoughts?

Fafnir6
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#14 M.H

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:55

How on earth do you make maps in ROF , other than mission editor ?
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#15 SeaW0lf

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 03:44

The first step in this process would be to isolate appropriate area(s) for the map. Once we have that in place, then we can start accumulating all the necessary information to populate said area. The map I posted in my first post would encompass all the major LAND conflicts on the Italian front nicely…But, as PCDurum noted, the famous seaplane activity occurred further South. Also, unlike the Western Front, the Italian front moved very significantly between 1917 and 1918. My question there is would it make more sense to do a smaller Piave Front map for late 1917 & 1918 (so everyone can get their SVAs, A.1s and Aviatik-Bergs) and a smaller Isonzo Front map for 1915-1917? An Adriatic map could also be done in the spirit of the current Channel map, as noted by Avimimus in the appropriate area. Sooooo…1 huge map or 2-3 smaller maps and once that is settled, which areas? We have the awesome seaplane mechanics in RoF and it would be shame not to render the Adriatic battles with that in hand. Also, there are large bombers in RoF currently. How could that be incorporated? The Austrians used Gotha G.IVs and the Italians had their line of capable Capronis. Where were they based and where did they attack? A larger map might be better for that.

I should also note that it has come to my attention that the Corpo Aeronautica Militare (The RoF Italian community) has apparently begun an Italian Front Map project (I looked on their forums but I can't read Italian so navigation was difficult to say the least). Perhaps we could pool our resources with them and get this front in RoF? If additional resources are needed we might be able to run some sort of kickstarter to get this going (I would shell out quite a few bucks to fly for the Austro-Hungarians in RoF).

Any thoughts?

Fafnir6

From my part, the question would be how hard it is to create a map, because on this thread Mission Editor Help please WolfPac comments on how difficult and risky it is to create a map and then break the editor.

Maybe we are talking about two different things, so it needs to be clarified. I used to play around with Bryce 3D, and the terrain creation was pretty straightforward. The difficulty would lay in the historic research and the accuracy and plasticity of the Alps.

If the job is just time consuming, I would go for the bigger map and try to delegate the work to as many people as possible. If the creation is complex and many times fruitless, then people should ponder if the intent is viable.
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#16 SeaW0lf

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 03:49

I also don't know if the mountains would slow the game too much due to the processing.
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#17 Fafnir6

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 06:46

I also don't know if the mountains would slow the game too much due to the processing.

Actually, I don't think that will be as difficult as you think. Also, I believe some of the CAM guys have worked on stock IL-2 stuff in the past (I may be mistaken). Learning that they were involved actually gave me a great deal of hope that this is going to happen. I also think that now is the time for 3D modellers and texture artists to start working on objects for this theatre. The new Channel map didn't need as much of this as an Italian map will…Houses, warehouses, town halls, Italian/Austro-Hungarian vehicles, etc. The Channel map borrowed lots of stuff from the Western front that will need to be built anew for the Italian front. If you can model in 3D or make textures THE FUTURE ROF COMMUNITY NEEDS YOU! For my part, I intend to learn a 3D package this winter so I will be able to contribute.

Cheers,

Fafnir6
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#18 SeaW0lf

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 09:17

No :o I used to just play around with Bryce 3D when I was still into graphic design and arts, and it has been a while. But I have an eye for spatial perception, graphic software’s and that kind of stuff.

But I can be a pawn in the big scheme of things if people really want to recreate the Alps. Last year, after I saw some tutorials at YouTube, I played around with the mission editor and I didn’t feel it was rocket science, but just too complex and that required a lot of study.

Regarding the 3D objects, I don’t know how it works, but I could give it a try, since I worked with graphics. The 3D creation process is more demanding than the pawn job of building terrain, so I don’t know if I would have much spare time. The terrain creation seems less stressful, just technical. I cope better with that.

If you know the game long enough and understand the mechanics, you could orchestrate a strategy.
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#19 PCDurum

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:33

I would say the Isonzo front would be the obvious choice for an Italian map. I'm not sure how much of the area could be included within the current ROF map limitations but iff you could include Trieste and at least the foothills of the alps to the north you could emulate most mission types & terrain quite nicely.

I'm looking into the map making side of things but I have to say atm its probably beyond my ability & time limitations to be able to tackle such a task in any kind of reasonable time frame.With the current limitations & my lack of knowledge in the workings of the ROF engine it would be an extremely daunting challenge for me.

I think iff someone like Wolfpack could be (tempted,persuaded,bribed) onboard & into leading a charge at it I think there would be much support for him and make it worthwile and with him onboard it would probably stand a much greater chance of being up to 777 quality requirements and ultimately achievable as a finished project.

Looking thru the threads I've noticed Wolfpack has been working on both a Gallipoli & Palestine map as well as completing his Fantasy Island map.

Perhaps something along the lines of a preorder or kickstarter type scheme similar to the additional aircraft and campaign mods would be the best tactical & rational way to get some forward momentum going?

Whatever is decided I'm very enthusiastic about this and would help support in whatever way I'm able. :)
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#20 Rama

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 13:00

Looking thru the threads I've noticed Wolfpack has been working on both a Gallipoli & Palestine map as well as completing his Fantasy Island map.
No. The Fantasy Island Map was done by DiFiS (and is the only Mod map that acutally made it into the game).
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#21 PCDurum

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 13:47

Ah, Thanks I stand corrected, still he does seem to have a certain grasp of whats required to a large extent. Which was my main point,in that he would understand more than most what would be required and what was possible.
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#22 Avimimus

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 03:09

The first step in this process would be to isolate appropriate area(s) for the map. Once we have that in place, then we can start accumulating all the necessary information to populate said area. The map I posted in my first post would encompass all the major LAND conflicts on the Italian front nicely…But, as PCDurum noted, the famous seaplane activity occurred further South. Also, unlike the Western Front, the Italian front moved very significantly between 1917 and 1918. My question there is would it make more sense to do a smaller Piave Front map for late 1917 & 1918 (so everyone can get their SVAs, A.1s and Aviatik-Bergs) and a smaller Isonzo Front map for 1915-1917? An Adriatic map could also be done in the spirit of the current Channel map, as noted by Avimimus in the appropriate area. Sooooo…1 huge map or 2-3 smaller maps and once that is settled, which areas? We have the awesome seaplane mechanics in RoF and it would be shame not to render the Adriatic battles with that in hand. Also, there are large bombers in RoF currently. How could that be incorporated? The Austrians used Gotha G.IVs and the Italians had their line of capable Capronis. Where were they based and where did they attack? A larger map might be better for that.

I should also note that it has come to my attention that the Corpo Aeronautica Militare (The RoF Italian community) has apparently begun an Italian Front Map project (I looked on their forums but I can't read Italian so navigation was difficult to say the least). Perhaps we could pool our resources with them and get this front in RoF? If additional resources are needed we might be able to run some sort of kickstarter to get this going (I would shell out quite a few bucks to fly for the Austro-Hungarians in RoF).

Any thoughts?

Fafnir6

Very interesting ideas.

My suggestion would be to work on a smaller Italian map which could be pushed to completion sooner:
- This way the map could complement other maps (e.g. if 777 or the Italian community built one).
- The map would probably have to be 95% complete before 777 Studios would invest in developing aircraft for it. So the sooner it is in beta the better.
- It could act as a lighter weight online map to complement any larger map

I wouldn't worry about any period prior to 1917… there weren't really enough aircraft.

Isonzo or Piave are priorities - but it would be nice to capture some of the Adriatic fighting. Note that one of the largest naval air stations (Austrio-Hungarian equivalent of Felixstowe) was in Trieste… so ut seems some seaplanes could be found in the North.

It is a shame the alps are so far away - there were some very neat trans-alpine raids during the war. I wonder if a second completely unpopulated map (i.e. no objects except maybe at the airfield) could be created to allow some Alpine flying.
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#23 PCDurum

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 15:16

Looking at the dimensions of the channel map,Ramsgate to Oostende is about 68 miles and Venice is about 65 miles from Trieste so size wise something like this map should be possible. It would allow for a little of all the favourable terrains & mission types.
The northern part of the map would include lots of tight valleys and the foothills of the alps although not the higher peaks.Ideally perhaps the map could be a little further east to include more of the actual Austrian bases but virtually all of the Isonzo front would be there with sea,major ports & some mountainous terrain! :)

It would be very interesting to see what the Italian forum guys are up to but I could not make head nor tail of their threads tbh! :lol:

Attached File  Italian front2.jpg   311.12KB   268 downloads
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#24 Avimimus

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 01:37

Looks pretty perfect to me (if you are going for one big map).

It'd be neat if there was some way to conveniently develop several small maps and then combine them - but I don't know enough about the RoF terrain data structure to know if this would be possible.

The one other consideration is airfield altitude - having a map which starts at higher above sea level would allow high altitude flight dynamics to be experienced with less climbing (and to continue to be experienced even if the AI dives to ground level).

This might be a good idea for a fantasy online map (similar to the charming island map) - an entire map set at higher altitude - somewhere in a mountain valley.
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#25 PCDurum

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 23:32

Iff there is anyone out there who could put this map together they would be a shining star amongst the dull and obvious glimmer!
It would be a stunning place to fly and a fantastic venue for a pro world designers skills to be let loose I'm sure. Its a shame there wasn't the same air activity in this area in WW2 then the map could have a duel worth and purpose.

I've had a good look and tbh the more I look at the ROF Map making process the more I realize how much work is involved and how much I would have to learn before attempting something on this scale and complexity which is why the greats should jump at it surely? Who really wants the next ROF career map to be the flat Russian Steppes? ;)
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