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Forts of Verdun - Séré de Rivière system (update beta v0.4)


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#1 Genius

Genius
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Posted 19 May 2013 - 20:43

Hi,

Just some test in Blender (i try 3ds max but too hard for me).

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Source:

www.lesfrancaisaverdun-1916.fr/
www.fortiffsere.fr/verdun/index_fichiers/Page5528.htm
de.academic.ru/dic.nsf/dewiki/456037
www.musee-du-genie-angers.fr/doc-fiche-9.pdf
www.langres.ims-creation.com/les_fosses.html et www.langres.ims-creation.com/le_camp_retranche.html

Some image:

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#2 Eckhart

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 00:09

Great job! We need those forts (Vaux and especially Douaumont) and some artillery barrages on them. This could be modeled into some volcano type action focused on Douaumont. It always bothers me to fly over those lush green woods around Verdun on those 1916 to 1918 maps. There was nothing green there at the end of 1916.
It would be great if ROF incorporated your model and replaced the nice landscape with the standard no-man's land. This highest concentration of shells ever spent in history was what fell on Verdun in 1916 and especially on the Douaumont.
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#3 Genius

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 00:10

Thanks,

Yes it would be great if some type of fortification "séré de rivières" was available.

Like:
1) "Douaumont type"
2) "Vaux type" (lobau-bondues near lille)
3) "Tavannes type" (with souville, belleville, more common)

I need help some help for understand map:

1) The "terrasse des chambres de la caserne-terrace rooms of the barracks" (see map) it is not at the same level at the "rue due rempart" or "allée charretière" ?

I understand that it is the first level: terrace (terrasse) it is not a couryard (cour)

2) What is the height of the casern, we have:
- 5 meters of concrete on the top
- the top of the level (see here www.langres.ims-creation.com/les_fosses.html) are at 8+9= 17 meters

=> height = 17-5 = 12 meters for 2 level / 6 meters for 1 level ?

3) near the "casemate de bourges" it is a ground level or not ?

Thanks in advance for your help.


§§§§§§§§§§

En 1888, une couche de béton de 2,5 m est ajoutée au-dessus de la caserne et les casemates sont renforcées d'une dalle de béton de 1,5 m. Entre cette nouvelle couche de béton et la maçonnerie de pierre, une couche de 1 m de sable vient faire office d'amortisseur. Les parties enterrées sont recouvertes de 5 m de terre. Les murs de soutènement sont quant à eux recouverts d'une plaque métallique sur une hauteur de 5 m. Le fossé est agrandi à une largeur de 12 m de large sur une profondeur de 8 m. Il est ensuite prolongé d'un puissant réseau de fil de fer de 30 m de large.

La partie centrale du fort est constituée par la caserne. Elle s'étend sur 2 étages, un rez-de-chaussée et un sous-sol, et comporte de nombreuses salles. On trouve au rez-de-chaussée la laverie, la cuisine, la boulangerie, l'hôpital, le poste de commandement et les réserves de munitions. A l'étage inférieur, la citerne d'eau, 2 réservoirs et la réserve de poudre.

§§§§§§§§§§§§

In 1888, a layer of concrete is added to 2.5 m above the barracks and bunkers are reinforced with a concrete slab of 1.5 m. Between this new layer of concrete and stone masonry, a layer of 1 m of sand is to act as a shock absorber. Buried parts are covered by 5 m of land. Retaining walls are in turn covered by a metal plate to a height of 5 m. The gap is enlarged to a width of 12 m wide to a depth of 8 m. It is then extended by a powerful network of wire 30 m wide.

The central part of the fort consists of the barracks. It extends over two floors, a ground floor and a basement, and has many rooms. It is on the ground floor laundry, cooking, bakery, hospital, command post and ammunition reserves. On the lower floor, the water tank, two tanks and supply of powder.

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#4 SYN_Vander

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:34

Looks good so far!

One tip: The devs told me once not to use many separate textures, but combine as many objects as possible in one texture. So in your case try to make one big texture for a "fortress pack" that can be used not just for Douaumont, but also for other fortresses?
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#5 jeanba4

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 12:15

Great job.
This would be a wonderfull addition to the game
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#6 Genius

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 23:42

Thanks,

For the texture ok for the info.

A+
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#7 Genius

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 15:32

news of the day:

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#8 Genius

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 23:55

Another step:

3D model - LOD0 completed

Casemate de bourges:

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Tourel Hotchkiss et observatory:

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Rue due rempart:

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Some control:

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Final result:

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Some question:

1) The next step is uv mapping or lod model ?
2) Can i do the uv mapping with blender ?
3) How many lod do you recommand ?
4) If they are the tree trunks on the model area, how to remove?

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Bye

Genius
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#9 Genius

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 00:08

Begin UV-mapping


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#10 Genius

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 23:09

Staff of the day:

- reduce polygons from 1472 tris to 1228 (-17%)
- end of uv-map (texture use 1/3 of 1024x1024 for other fortification)

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- test export in 3DS

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Nest step:
- try gennadish tools and try in game

Bye
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#11 SYN_Vander

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:17

Looking good. Maybe you can map a couple of those side walls on the same texture location? i imagine the concrete walls will look mostly the same and it will save you texture space, plus a lot of uvmapping :)

If you run into any problems with the gennadich tools just post here!
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#12 SQSN

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 07:54

Few suggestions, if I may:

First of all, since this is a HUGE object, I suggest to split it into fewer and smaller parts, each of which would be a separate, independent object in-game. Use 512x512 texture on each of this objects and try to use as much texture space, as possible. This way, although the texture will be smaller, then the current one, you'll get a higher pixel rate overall. For some of this smaller objects, same texture may be used, thus lowering total amount of textures for the whole fort.

The final structure would be then assembled in the mission or map builder.

Second, when unwrapping, try to make as less, as possible seams. Unwrap the mapping literary, by placing sides next to top, etc. So in the end you would get an unwrap, which, if printed on paper and cut with scissors, could be then folded into a 3D paper model of your object. :)

This way you will have much less troubles with aligning texture and eradicating visual seams on the object in the game.
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#13 Genius

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 21:10

Thanks for your comment and suggestion.

Yes this object is very big (400 m x 400 m).

What do you mean when you say : "I suggest to split it into fewer and smaller parts, each of which would be a separate, independent object in-game. "

I could split the "caserne/barracks" to the "superstructure" (ditch, wall, etc …) but this objects are very specific for douaumont.

If i do 2 textures of 512x512 i can't combine this with an other objects/fortifications type (see below) ?

For the quality of the texture can i use a 2048x2048 textures (SDK say ok for city blocks but 512x512 for unique (historical) buildings, fortress) ?
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#14 SQSN

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 21:24

I'd suggest to split the outer rampart into 5 parts, by the number of fort sides. At least 4 of them are symmetrical, which means, you can use same texture for this pairs of parts (or may be for all of them). And the 6th part - would be the central part with it's own texture. Plus, each cannon and MG turret, probably, would need to be made as a separate objects in order to be operational.

From the game perspective this would be 6 separate buildings, plus turrets.
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#15 Genius

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 23:15

Or I finish totally douaumont and make general parts for other like this:

- (x2?) Wall (in yellow) approx. 50 meters and 25-30 m ? (to adjust size of fort)
- 2x (left/right) Coffre/caponnière simple in dark blue
- 2x (left/right) Outer Coffre/caponnière simple in light blue (like vaux)
- Coffre/caponnière double in dark red
- Outer Coffre/caponnière double in pink (like vaux)
- Enter in green
- Angular wall (in purple)
- Caserne/barraks in black
= 10/11 objects

but problem/question:
- How to do the inner glacis (and adjust the size for various fortification) ?
- For "Casemate de bourges", turrets if i do separate objects they will be at ground level of the game (not at the glacis level)
- I don't know how to do turrets operational
- With this individual object can i create block ?
- If i do this objects, can i use the same texture files for
=> douaumont
=> individual objects (x10)
=> blocks wich use individual objects (if possible)
- Where to place textures (i dont have buildings subfolder and textures subfolders !) ?

Screen (Souville,Belleville, Tavannes, Vaux):

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test in game editor:

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#16 Jason_Williams

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 16:16

Cool! Adding forts would be neat!

Jason
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#17 jeanba4

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 16:17

Yes, a nice recon and Arty spotting target
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#18 SYN_Vander

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 17:20

Although the suggestion of SQSN to cut the model up in parts is a good one, there may be one problem: if the ground is not even ( as it never is) you will not be able to align the individual part correctly. You need to test this.

About turrets, you can model them individually and then attach them ( by providing x,y,z co ordinates) to the fort in the .txt file in luascripts\ worldobjects. See other objects under " firing point" for examples.
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#19 Genius

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 22:48

Thanks.

Yes i have problem to adjust this object at the level of the ground (size is too big for one pivot point).

After test,I think that the best way is to do individual (and generics) parts and package in blocks (city block can adjust the level of individual group of house).

The results will be less beautiful (seal between block, alignment not perfect) but it's the most adjustable.

What do you think?
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#20 Genius

Genius
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Posted 10 June 2013 - 00:04

Some news:

I started again from scratch.

I do individual objects in blender for generic fort

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And same but for douaumont :

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The goal is to play on the pivot of each object so as to match the difference in ground level.

But I need your help for some test:

I Export Blender file in Wavefront Objects (.obj)
When I import this file in 3DS max 8 i have only one object

1) How to separate object in 3DS Max 8 and make one block with many objects (like city block in rise of flight) ?
2) How to move the pivot point in 3ds Max 8 ?

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#21 Genius

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 20:33

Ok for objects,i will do export with this parameters:

- "object as OBJ Objects"

The other parameters are:
- Selection only (for test only douaumont)
- Apply Modifiers
- Include Edge
- Include Normals
- Include UV's
- Whrite materials
- Keep Vertex order

To move the pivot in 3ds max 8:
- Hierarchy button on right-top
- pivot
- Affect pivot only

I do a third version with low poly (961 tri), i adjust this to the ground level

1) I made level curve of the zone in rof editor (1 every 5 m. of altitude)

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2) I made a ground level in blender

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3) I adjust douaumont to the ground level (15 meters altitude difference between the highest point and the lowest point)

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#22 Genius

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 18:46

News: test of uv-mapping

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#23 J.j.

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 18:48

Super!
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#24 Jason_Williams

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:08

Looking big and strong.

Jason
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#25 Genius

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:49

Thanks,

Can somebody explains me this:

- When i import objects in 3ds max 8, i have 10 objects with 10 pivot but after export in mgm format i have only one pivot point ??

- I don't know why i have 24 material in max (gennadish tool), i don't affect material in blender. How to know what face or object that is? (I want to affect "ground" for the surface of the fort and "building" for the wall fo example)
=> If i affect one "default (standard)" with gennadish tools, all "default (standard)" are affected

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#26 SYN_Vander

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 12:55

Not sure what is happening, 10 objects shoudl stay 10 objects, each with their own pivot point.
About materials: This must be an import artifact, you only need one material in 3dsmax for these objects. So use the material editor and select one material, check texture name & path and apply to all objects.
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#27 Gunsmith86

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 19:35

looks very good!

;)
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#28 Genius

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 23:33

Thanks all.

Staff of the day:
- collision box (i have some difficult with the export in mgm/col format, i have number of ERROR #n_3: Collision node '' is not convex)

=> i have found a trick with blender: select your mesh in edit mode, tape "space", tape "convex" and click on "convex hull". In case of problem, deactive "join triangle" in mesh edit tools ("t" tools / left side)

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@Syn-Vander

Not sure what is happening, 10 objects shoudl stay 10 objects, each with their own pivot point.

Yes you are righ, i havejust some trouble with export in 3DS, all pivot point are zeroized.

For damage model, what do you think to only adjust the pivot point of the buildings (sinking into the soil, like this ?:

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#29 SYN_Vander

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:16

Hi Genius,

Nice to see the progress!

About the damage model: I think the bunkers in RoF do not even have a damage model. The simplest thing to do is give the damage model a damage texture, then you can ser what parts have been hit. Or you could spend some time in actually creating damaged versions of the parts, with pieces blown off etc, but beware of the extra polys this will create.
Don't forget a level od detail, your object will be seen from miles away! :)
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#30 Genius

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:28

Hi,

The advantage of lowering the level of the fort is to simulate the partial filling of gaps in the bombing without creating additional polygons. With adequate texture simulating the craters on the fort and glacis for complement.

Indeed, it is more works because I must create additional blocks of collision but i don't know if it's worth.

In SDK, i found this:
Maximum number of polygons for LOD 0 = 3000, LOD 1 = 1500, LOD 2 = 750 and so on.

What do you think of:

LOD 0:
1036 polygons

LOD 1:
570 polygons, -45% of LOD0 (80% of decimate modifier in blender + suppression of turrets)
or 670 polygons, -35% of LOD0 (only suppresion of turrets)=> ??

LOD 2: 464 polygons, -55% of LOD0 (50% to 70% of decimate modifier in blender + suppression of turrets)

Another question : How much distance correspond LOD 1 and LOD 2 ? It's is configurable ?
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#31 SYN_Vander

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:36

Hi,

The advantage of lowering the level of the fort is to simulate the partial filling of gaps in the bombing without creating additional polygons. With adequate texture simulating the craters on the fort and glacis for complement.

Indeed, it is more works because I must create additional blocks of collision but i don't know if it's worth.

In SDK, i found this:
Maximum number of polygons for LOD 0 = 3000, LOD 1 = 1500, LOD 2 = 750 and so on.

What do you think of:

LOD 0:
1036 polygons

LOD 1:
570 polygons, -45% of LOD0 (80% of decimate modifier in blender + suppression of turrets)
or 670 polygons, -35% of LOD0 (only suppresion of turrets)=> ??

LOD 2: 464 polygons, -55% of LOD0 (50% to 70% of decimate modifier in blender + suppression of turrets)

Another question : How much distance correspond LOD 1 and LOD 2 ? It's is configurable ?

I don't think it's possible to change the LOD distance for static objects (devs have never confirmed this, but I think SQSN said this). What I did was use the ME to see when objects change LODs. It's a lot further than you might think, so you will probably want to go for the lowest number of polys possible.

The max view distance (distance where the objects fades and disappears) is determined based on the size of the object (or maybe volume). For small objects like the airfield objects I created 2 extra invsisble polygons (by using non gennadich material) so they wouldn't dissapear too soon.
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#32 Genius

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 20:23

One question: The number of collisions box are impact in performance ?

Because, i have duplicated original collision box for damaged model (lowest level) and now, i have approximatly 50 collision box.:
- 25 with original level ("~" collision box)
- 25 witl lower level (without "~")
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#33 Genius

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 20:34

I have a problem for test damage model

I use MCU "Command:Damage" (level complete) in ROF editor with timer to douaumont object.

When the command is activated, i have a dust but the model is not replaced by "01_" model.

Someone have an idea ?
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#34 Genius

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 23:11

While waiting to find a solution to the problem of damage, i do some work to fort de Vaux.

It's more simple with little practice:

3D = OK
Collision = OK
UV map : just to organize the UV map with douaumont
LOD: To do

Polygons: 419 tri

Some screens:

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#35 MarcoRossolini

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:13

Genius!
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#36 Genius

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 23:41

Thanks!

LOD completed:
- LOD 0 = 419 tri
- LOD 1 = 220 tri
- LOD 2 = 164 tri

New arrangement of the uv mapping for douaumont and vaux:
- Douamont approx. 2048*800
- Vaux approx. 2048*400
- ?? to be determined: 2048*800
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#37 SYN_Vander

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 05:52

I have a problem for test damage model

I use MCU "Command:Damage" (level complete) in ROF editor with timer to douaumont object.

When the command is activated, i have a dust but the model is not replaced by "01_" model.

Someone have an idea ?

Hi Genius,

The object names in the damage model should be the same as the ones in the normal model. Also check the naming convention. I always use _xx as suffix where xx is the object number.
Also, did you set the gennadich material for the damage models?
If nothing works you can send the project to me so I can check it out. Usually it is something simple that has been overlooked :).
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#38 Genius

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 20:55

It's maybe me with rof editor, i test with watertower : Command damage - level complete to object.

I have only flame and dust but no damage !!

see:

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#39 SYN_Vander

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 05:51

The water towers have damage models for sure.
This maybe an artifact of "Damage" command, not giving full damage, but partial.

I always test damage models in the editor directly. In the damage property box, add a 1 to the list and so on. This is the number that is used in the suffix of the object name i.e. object_01
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#40 Genius

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 20:35

Hi,

When i try this the block properties don't save the changes.

1) I made object with linked entity
2) "Add" in damage properties
3)
Structure ID = 0 / Damage = 1 / "OK"
Structure ID = 1 / Damage = 1 / "OK"

=> No change in damage model and the change in the damage properties it's not save ! I don't understand

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