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A little side project: Naval drifters


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#41 SYN_Vander

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 15:33

Figured out how to make glass. Added the smoke- and damage effects. The engine is running, but she won't sail! It seems there is a recent bug in RoF that prevents ships from moving, because none of the others move as well!

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#42 NewGuy_

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 21:16

She looks great, Vander! The National Marine Manufacturers Association would approve! :D
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#43 hq_Jorri

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 21:22

Fabulous work!
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#44 SYN_Vander

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 21:32

It turns out that when you insert the ships in the middle of the Channel, they DO move. Finally, a screenshot of the Drifter in action:

Image

Never knew that smoke changes color and gets denser when a ship starts to sail (compared to idling).. nice detail!

I have sent the model to SYN_Bandy for skinning. All colors and textures you see now are just temporary/ stand-ins!

Next week I'll start work on the damage model. It will be interesting to make several damage models of different parts of the ship so it doesn't blow up in one go, but gradually gets more damaged.
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#45 Stick-95

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 21:34

+1
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#46 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 21:37

it really looks great and I hope it moves soon. And moves to the side of official content, mods off. One small sidenote though, it lacks proper lights and lightboards. For a vessel that size it should have a white on top and port and starboard lights, typically mounted on black boards to limit the arc of the light.

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#47 SYN_Vander

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 22:15

it really looks great and I hope it moves soon. And moves to the side of official content, mods off. One small sidenote though, it lacks proper lights and lightboards. For a vessel that size it should have a white on top and port and starboard lights, typically mounted on black boards to limit the arc of the light.

There are two lights mounted on either size of the cabin. But I have no good detailed photographs of how they would have looked like, so please provide! :)

Btw, that is a totally different ship in your photograph; not sure how that translates to a Drifter type.
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#48 ChiefRedCloud

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 22:19

Very nice Vander ….. lots of work here … thanks
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#49 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 22:54

There are two lights mounted on either size of the cabin. But I have no good detailed photographs of how they would have looked like, so please provide! :)

Btw, that is a totally different ship in your photograph; not sure how that translates to a Drifter type.

your drifter yould have the port and starboard lights mounted on the roof of the bridge (I think you can faintly see as black dot them in the first image that you put there) for simple reasons: no obscurence when somebody stands there and overall good visibility. Like in all boats that mount would be made of 2 pieces of wood, probably painted black, and mounted in a L-shaped rectangular fashion, the long leg of the L pointing forward, the short pointing outward to the respective side. This is to limit the arc from which the position light can be seen, i.e. from forward to a bit more then 90° sideways so you can determine the general course of the vessel by which lights you see: white only = stern towards you, red+green and the white: bow towards you. red= left side, green right side. If you see red / green and the angle to your viewpoint does NOT change, you are on collision course.

the overall installation is more or less similar over different types of ships and still found today.

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#50 Feathered_IV

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 22:58

It's beautiful. I'd love to see it written into the game. Especially if there were a couple of variations in skin or details for variety.
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#51 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 23:20

some nice tidbits on the dover patrol:

http://www.ramsgateh...topic,75.0.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.ramsgateh...ry.com/forum/in … ,75.0.html


some wrecks of fishery vessels similar to the one you built and their history:

FV Gamecock (SH181) was a British registered steam fishing trawler of 151grt built in 1892 by Cook, Welton & Gemmel of Hull. On the 25th September 1916 she was sunk by gunfire from German submarine U-57 (Carl-Siegfried Ritter von Georg) when 20 miles NE of Scarborough.
http://www.wrecksite...eck.aspx?137131" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.wrecksite...eck.aspx?137131



Built for Hull Steam Fishing & Ice Co Ltd. (H.119); Yard No 89; Date of completion 10/06/1892; In Jan 1916 sold to Neville S Clarke, Scarborough; Skipper: J. Lang; Captured 16 miles E by N from Whitby by the German submarine U-57 and sunk by gunfire.

http://www.wrecksite...eck.aspx?137130" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.wrecksite...eck.aspx?137130
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#52 redcoat22

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:31

Fantastic work as always
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#53 SYN_Vander

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 14:17

it really looks great and I hope it moves soon. And moves to the side of official content, mods off. One small sidenote though, it lacks proper lights and lightboards. For a vessel that size it should have a white on top and port and starboard lights, typically mounted on black boards to limit the arc of the light.

I found them! On the below picture of a model Drifter, you can see them on the rear part of the engine room.

Image
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#54 tvrtko

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 14:23

Wonderful work Vander.
U sure you ain't… Wonder ? :D
Beside being nice targets, I'm
sure dr. Zebra will have another
"airport" to master his landing onto. :)
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#55 SYN_Vander

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 21:05

Working out the damage model is FUN! If you like shooting at trains, then you'll love attacking these ships!

Any part of the ship can be damaged and will get more visible damage after multiple passes. Of course, the quickest way to blow up the ship is to target the boiler room.

After first couple of passes, steam is venting out of the engine room (again, textures are very early WIP) :
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The engine stopped. Let's go in for the kill!
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Ka-boom!
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Perspective from cockpit (No, I didn't survive this! ;) )
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#56 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 22:19

that looks soo much like fun. A real good looking boat. I also like the model. I wonder If we can find good pictures of armed versions.

There is this painting, showing an interesting gun mount, but I don´t know how fictional that might be..

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#57 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 23:09

some obvious naval modifications seem to be the removal of the foremast and the addition of a kind of "flybridge" observation stand, albeit most images there seem to be post ww1

Image

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#58 LukeFF

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 23:42

Vander, are you planning to make a version with a German flag?
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#59 Jason_Williams

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:22

Looking good Vander! I'm ready for a battleship…sorry a dreadnought.

Jason
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#60 Feathered_IV

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:44

And something with sails perhaps. Still plenty around in those days. ;)
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#61 J5_Wolf

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:00

Beautiful Work Van
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#62 SYN_Vander

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:44

some obvious naval modifications seem to be the removal of the foremast and the addition of a kind of "flybridge" observation stand, albeit most images there seem to be post ww1

Yes, it's hard to determine if a photo is from WW1 or WW2 as the Drifters were active in both wars. Most pictures are from WW2. Thanks for that painting of the armed trawler! I was indeed thinking of removing the front mast and putting a gun there.

Vander, are you planning to make a version with a German flag?

Yep, I have reserved some texture space for a German flag, so there will be a German version as well.

Looking good Vander! I'm ready for a battleship…sorry a dreadnought.

Jason

Yeah, there are lots of fun ships to be made. My first objective was to have a ship that can be attacked and destroyed by the W12. The drifters were used by the British to tend the submarine nets and for mine sweeping so they were used in numbers and a valid target for German aircrews.
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#63 Trooper117

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:34

Waiting with anticipation here… damn good show!
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#64 SYN_Vander

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 21:20

Work continues, small update.

Here is an insight view in damage modeling. The ship is made up of 4 different components, each having three damage models (0, 1, 2). 0= undamaged. 2= totally destroyed. (The screenshot shows the masts as extra components, but that didn't work out too well).

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Armament trials have begun, three weapons have been tested.

First, the 13 pnd AAA gun:

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This gun was a bit heavy and difficult to operate on the small deck.

Secondly, the deck gun of the British submarine:

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Again, too cumbersome and can't be used as AAA gun.

The Admiralty have now settled for the 4 inch AAA gun, also used on cruisers:

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And it looks quite authentic:

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#65 SYN_Bandy

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 22:19

Glad to see that worked out. I assume this will not have an affect on texture work, which has already started? :D Expect rust. Rust Never Sleeps.

How about AAMG? I imagine it is possible (via mission parameters) to have some with just AAMG, some with AAA, and perhaps some with both???
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#66 LordNeuro_Srb

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 22:45

Gr8 work SYN_Vander. I hope we will se same of or amezing work in rof soon.
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#67 Waxworks

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 00:15

It should look authentic, as a 4 inch gun is probably what the vast majority had!

An old low angle gun is what was used and the crews barely had the training to fire on submarines at close range. They wouldn't have been able to operate their gun as a AAA weapon. Is it possible to add that characteristic, as with the low angle machine guns and the artillery?

Otherwise we could empty the guns, or empty most of them as there might be larger vessels with AAA operating nearby. However the Otranto barrage had a drifter for every 2 km of a 100 km barrage, which would be a fair amount of flak even on a much shorter barrage…
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#68 Ztenis

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:02

Better and better! I see you provided some light for those poor sods down in the boiler and is it me or have you flattened the top of the aft a bit? Anyhow, looking good! :S!:
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#69 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 18:17

what I found interesting, is that these vessels have been built so numerously and in different sizes, material variants and fishing variants (as drift netters and trawlers) but still it seems like there is only one survivor, the Lydia Eva in Yarmouth.

here is a bit of a vid:



———————————————————————

and on a very silly sidenote:
now that the drifter is ready to fill the barges role on the 3d-waves, the barge has been freed to server other purposes:



See how desperate the sealegged crowd gets, when it comes to carriers?
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#70 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 18:38

I think actually the small 4inch gun seems to fit the real thing best..


here are just some more things for those interessted in the general topic:

original pre 1920 fishing footage with said vessels, but a bit grainy:
https://www.youtube....h?v=bPItjK5ofAk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">

more historic footage:
https://www.youtube....h?v=Sjhf3E7rmhw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">

and a song for entertainment with paintings as acompaning images:
https://www.youtube....h?v=uOzge2ep_e0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">

another nice song/pic vid:
https://www.youtube....h?v=6Ov81aogaxg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">

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#71 SYN_Vander

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 18:34

So I'll probably have to make the 4 inch forward firing gun. Shouldn't be too hard.

But I have read about AA guns being fitted to drifters. See here, for example

"…Jan 1916: Taken up by Admiralty (No. 2720), as net layer, harbour service. 1 x 3 pdr. AA."

http://www.llangibby...cidents/val.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.llangibby...ipse.co.uk/milf … ts/val.htm


And

"Dittmar and Colledge BRITISH WARSHIPS WW1 gives

Admiralty No 755, Port No YH554, AMIABLE, 72 gross tons launched 1910,, armed with 1 x 6 pounder AA gun, net minesweeper, requisitioned January 1915 and returned 1919…"

from here: http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=165927" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://1914-1918.inv...nzone.com/forum … pic=165927

So which gun? I found this:

3 pounder (looks a lot like the ones on the drifter photos):

http://en.wikipedia....under_Hotchkiss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia....under_Hotchkiss

"It was also used ashore as a coast defence gun and later occasionally as an anti-aircraft gun."

6 pounder:

http://en.wikipedia....under_Hotchkiss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia....under_Hotchkiss

"Britain lacked any dedicated air defence artillery early in World War I and up to 72[7] 6 pounders were adapted to high-angle pedestal mountings at key establishments in Britain for close air defence by 1916."

Still puzzled by all this. And were any of these vessels armed with a AA machine gun ??
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#72 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 18:55

impressive indeed
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kpt. pil. / Capt. Sahaj / Operations Officer / 1. Eskadra Mysliwska / 1. Pulk Lotniczy / http://www.1pl.boo.pl

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http://warthog-extensions-by-sahaj.com


#73 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 18:55

clear yes on the machineguns in 1918. Here is a bit on a wreck of such a drifter in the mediteranian sea:

(my guess is that towards the end of the war, the observation plattform above the wheelhouse and a gun on the bow, either 6 or 3 pdrs must have become fairly standard. most pictures taken in the 1920 show the drifters with an added structure on top of the wheelhouse)

The Drifter HM Eddy started her life on the shipyard slipway of Alexander Hall and Company Ltd. of Aberdeen in Scotland in March of 1918 The drifter was a essentially a trawling fishing boat design which were adapted by the admiralty to serve in the British navy as mine sweepers and a host of other duties. The Eddy was launched on the 14th of August 1918, being ready for service on the 27th of August of the same year. The Eddy was an Ocean Class single screw steel steam drifter and was the 10th drifter out of the 21 that the Hall Company was to build for the British Admiralty. She was assigned pennant number FY12, and then sent off to join a squadron conducting mine-clearance on the south coast of England.

The Eddy’s hull measured 26.21 meters in length, with a beam of 5.63 meters and maximum load draft of 3.48 meters. She had one triple expansion steam engine developing about 270 HP, and supplied with steam from one single-ended cylindrical boiler fired from the aft end. Coal bunker are arranged at each of the boiler and were connected by hinged water tight doors with the Cross bunker in the Fish-hold, the total coal bunker capacity was about 37 tons. Special equipment fitted to the vessel for Admiralty service comprised of a trawl winch with two drums, capable of taking 400 fathoms of steel wire- rope. This was fitted on the upper deck forward of the wheelhouse. An ammunition room in what originally was the fish hold. A small mess hall with accommodation for the crew, a bunker at the rear of the hold fitted with fresh water tanks and also minesweeping bollards and fairleads. She was also armed with a small three-pounder gun on a gun platform in the bow and a Lewis machinegun above the wheelhouse.
http://www.oneweekho...m-drifter-eddy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.oneweekho...y.com/malta/val … fter-eddy/


here is a list of hired steam drifters that worked for the admirality in WW1, it seems that the armament was not homogenous. lots of QF-6pdrs and 3pdrs, one main gun seems to be the rule.
http://www.fishingbo...&layout=default" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.fishingbo...ritage.com/inde … ut=default
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#74 SYN_Vander

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 19:10

Still not entirely sure if that machine gun was fitted in WW1 or later, but let's assume it was! :)
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#75 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 19:19

I think it is pretty logical to assume so, as in the beginning of ww1 the anti aircraft armament was really underdeveloped ("anti ballon guns") and improvised but towards the end in 1918 air threads could just not be ignored and vessels that did stand alone operations would direly need at least something to fight back, in case the enemy was encountered.

there seems to be a nice book on the overall subject:
http://www.amazon.co...6790255-0504238" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.amazon.co...R-N-Trawlers-Ad … 55-0504238
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#76 Waxworks

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 20:01

A trawler is a bigger vessel than a drifter, with a bigger crew and engine capacity. A bigger ship with 2-3 guns might have either an AAMG or a light AA gun. I've not come across any evidence of an AAMG mounted on a drifter.

The Battle of the Otranto Straits p35 "Drifters, as the name implies, work in a more passive manner after shooting their nets…. They deployed astern wire mesh nets 180 foot deep. this implies a naïve notion that the submarine was a giant steel fish to be netted, but this was not the case. The nets were so-called 'indicator nets,' that is, they were fitted with buoys released by the violent motion of a submarine maneuvering against the nets. The buoys, devised to ignite and burn calcium when fouled, would thereby betray the presence of a submarine under the surface."

Nets were used where it was prohibitive to maintain fixed minefields, in part to channel U-boats into minefields.

Admiralty Drifter

6 pounder

These were reserve vessels, and crews with far better levels of weapons familiarity had no light AA on their ships. The coastal motor boats which were intended for action against the enemy had no AAMGs until very late in the war.

Even if their guns were capable of HA fire, which I doubt, the ships would have to have AA ammunition and gunlayers capable of AA fire, and they simply did not have. All the gun was there for was to put a hole in a surface U-boat at very close range, should one surface after fouling a net.

These sort of vessels move around in numbers, if you have half-a-dozen sailing to their patrol line and they all have flak, that is a lot of flak. It would be like having flak trucks with truck convoys, just silly in terms of history..

So if you include a version with a single low angle 3, 4 or 6 pounder gun, that would be the version I would use for the drifter itself. If the vessel was a stand in for another bigger ship then an AAMG or an AA gun version might be more useful.
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#77 SYN_Vander

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 20:19

In "Mine Warfare Vessels of the Royal Navy from 1908 to date" they list all Drifters used as Mine- sweepers and only list 6 pdr gun as armament "where fitted". Not all had armament.
However: I have read that the crew would have rifles on board (to shoot mines if necessary) so I could at least add a sailor with a rifle? :)

Okay, but then the Drifters will simply be sitting ducks, looking from a mission perspective. Not too bad perhaps, considering that they are AI targets only.

Another thing: What are the chances of hitting an aircraft with a machine gun, mounted on the top of the steering hut, in anything other than a completely calm sea???

https://www.youtube....tjK5ofAk#t=101s
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#78 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 22:00

A trawler is a bigger vessel than a drifter

not necessarily, it refers to the method of fishing. Drift netting vs a trawled net. Since trawling is the more efficient way to fish, but it gives a bit inferior quality in fish, due to damage from the net, these vessels soon got larger and the typical enclosed bow-section devoloped. However, at the beginning of WW1 these vessels were pretty similar and derived from the same class of construction.

for instance if you go through this nice site
http://www.gooleships.co.uk/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.gooleships.co.uk/index.htm you see a lot of development. notice the difference in size, hull material changing from wood to steel, bow form changes and addition of powerful winches, a-frames and the like. Open wheelhouse on the ones built up to 1910-12 then closed. I´ve picked out some military vessels also, it started in 1918 that they got provisionary means on the wheelhouse which later turned more and more solid in the 1920.

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#79 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 23:04

Ok, I made a quick count
analysis with the data from:
http://www.fishingbo...&layout=default" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.fishingbo...ritage.com/inde … ut=default
(nice site with literature refrences given)

Out of 26 vessels hired to the admirality (all hired early in the war 1914-1916, note: this does not include purpose built naval ships along the lines of civi-drifter-blueprints) 20 were used in asw-net operations.

Overall, 19 were armed. 11 with 6 pdrs, 7 with 3-pdrs and one with a 2.5 pound aa gun and 7 without any mention of armament. Among the "non-armed" hired vessels 5 were used in roles other then asw or patrol (like hospital tender, boom defence tender) In 3 cases (2.5, 3 and 6 pdr guns) an anti aircraft role is additionally explicitly specified.

the question remains how machine gun arment was counted in the navy, I think those may have been not counted in the offcical armament register, maybe they also were brought aboard like other small arms on a more flexible basis.
But given the fact that at least rifles were tendencially on board, a lewis could serve to stand-in for small arms fire in rof in some cases.



Another thing: What are the chances of hitting an aircraft with a machine gun, mounted on the top of the steering hut, in anything other than a completely calm sea???

given that the sea moves periodically and a sailor should have an anticipation for the movements probably slightly worse then on land. Might differ drastically with crew experience though, i think.



and one a side note, there is also a seemingly rare aft gun instalation, image probably taken between 1918 and 1920

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#80 SYN_Vander

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:14

Well, the solution should be simple then: I'll add an AAA variant and it will be up to the mission designer to use it or not.
So I will go for 3 versions ( which was the idea all along :) ):

- unarmed
- armed with 6 pdr forward firing gun
- armed with 6 pdr AA gun ( this one will have the forward mast removed )

I will create a new 6 pdr gun which will not be as powerful as the current 13 pdr on the Thornycraft.
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