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A few medal changes to PWCG


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#1 Louvert

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 15:22

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Hello Pat and All,

I am fully enjoying the latest version of the Campaign Generator and all it offers. However, just as before, I can't leave well enough alone when it comes to the medals and I continue to tweak them during my various careers. I've made numerous medals over the course of different campagins and in a couple different configurations: the first being the same size so they will plug in just as they should; the second being larger images showing the medals in presentation cases. While I prefer the way the latter appears on the pilot's page I don't know that Pat would want to use them as they require other image changes in order to display properly. That being said, here are a couple of screenshots showing the two:


Image


Image


On my French pilot's page I have switched the CdGs to show palms only as this medal was almost always presented to airmen at the army level, which is what the palm denotes, (the various stars denoted awards of the medal at regiment/brigade, division, or corps levels). And historically this medal would never have been presented without an attachment of some sort but I have not changed the plain version of it - yet.
Also, I've switched to the ribbon only for the "Insigne des blessés militaires" as the French wound medal was not officially adopted until 1920. During the war, (actually starting December 1916), the simple ribbon was used with a red star attachment given for each time the recepient was wounded in combat.

Pat, if these are something you would like to use, I could work up a full set of medals, (in the stock sizes you currently run), from the many images I have on file. Let me know.

Cheers!

Lou

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#2 Barkhorn1x

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 16:39

I like that presentation Louvert. Hope Pat agrees.
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#3 elephant

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 16:52

I like them too, very nice indeed.
I have made that comment again to you in another forum, Lou…
I find the ribbon of the Iron Cross 2nd class not in scale with the actual medal.
You could use the very nicely done default RoF graphic found in the Useful Materials section, alternatively.
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#4 PatAWilson

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 16:57

Sent Louvert a PM. He has just discovered that the price for doing good work is to be asked to do more work :).

But yes, I will be happy to incorporate those just as I have incorporated TVRKO's new icons.

I am not a great graphics artist. I'm not awful, but there are lots of people out there with way more talent than I have. Always happy when folks feel strongly enough about PWCG that they would like to contribute.
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#5 HotTom

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 18:10

Those look great, Lou! :S!:
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#6 BroadSide

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:19

Can the name of the medal be included in the display?
(perhaps even when it was awarded and for what actions)
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#7 PatAWilson

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:25

Not easy, but possible. Would probably have to add all new functionality, like a medal box page, to do it right. I took it down as an idea on the to-do list. Can't promise immediate action but it is a good idea.
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#8 J5_Wolf

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:33

Very nice indeed…
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#9 Louvert

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 16:11

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Can the name of the medal be included in the display?

How about something like this:


Image

Image


Great minds think alike BroadSide. I actually began adding brass name plates for the medals late last night as I was working on this project.

At this point I am about two-thirds the way along with all the new images and hope to have it nearly done by this evening so that I can turn everything over to Pat.

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#10 Barkhorn1x

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 16:28

Excellent progress. Love the format.
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#11 elephant

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 17:03

Fantastic!
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#12 Blade_meister

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 17:03

Louvert, that looks great Sir, thank you for your hard graphical work and your time, it is people like you and Pat and some others which are making ROF that much better in conjunction with 777.

S!Blade<><
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#13 J.j.

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 17:11

On my French pilot's page I have switched the CdGs to show palms only as this medal was almost always presented to airmen at the army level, which is what the palm denotes, (the various stars denoted awards of the medal at regiment/brigade, division, or corps levels). And historically this medal would never have been presented without an attachment of some sort but I have not changed the plain version of it - yet.

Both statements are false. The first time the Croix de Guerre was awarded, it wore no palm or stars - those decorations were for subsequent awards.
Also, even if palms were the most awarded, some French aces also received stars for award of the Croix de Guerre at Régiment / Brigade, Division, or Corps d'Armée levels.

Also note that any award of the Médaille Militaire, or the Légion d'Honneur with the rank of Chevalier or Officier automatically add for the recipient one bronze palm to his Croix de Guerre.

The exemples of :
René Fonck with 28 palms and one star
Image
Charles Nungesser with 28 palms and 2 stars http://fr.wikipedia....arles_Nungesser" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://fr.wikipedia....arles_Nungesser

Albert Deullin with 13 palms and one star.
http://fr.wikipedia..../Albert_Deullin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://fr.wikipedia..../Albert_Deullin
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#14 BroadSide

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 18:53

.

Can the name of the medal be included in the display?

How about something like this:


Image

Image


Great minds think alike BroadSide. I actually began adding brass name plates for the medals late last night as I was working on this project.

At this point I am about two-thirds the way along with all the new images and hope to have it nearly done by this evening so that I can turn everything over to Pat.

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Terrific work Lou!
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#15 Louvert

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 23:02

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Thanks everyone, glad you like 'em. :)



On my French pilot's page I have switched the CdGs to show palms only as this medal was almost always presented to airmen at the army level, which is what the palm denotes, (the various stars denoted awards of the medal at regiment/brigade, division, or corps levels). And historically this medal would never have been presented without an attachment of some sort but I have not changed the plain version of it - yet.

Both statements are false. The first time the Croix de Guerre was awarded, it wore no palm or stars - those decorations were for subsequent awards.
Also, even if palms were the most awarded, some French aces also received stars for award of the Croix de Guerre at Régiment / Brigade, Division, or Corps d'Armée levels.

Also note that any award of the Médaille Militaire, or the Légion d'Honneur with the rank of Chevalier or Officier automatically add for the recipient one bronze palm to his Croix de Guerre.

Actually J.j. I'm going to have to disagree with you Sir about both of my statements being false.

Firstly, I said that the French CdG was "almost always" awarded with the palm to WWI airmen, and that is quite true. Well over 90% of all CdGs were given with palms in these instances because the pilot in question was mentioned in dispatches at the army level. Yes, there were some CdGs presented with stars, but very, very few by comparision. Thus my "almost always" comment.

Secondly, there were no CdGs given without attachments and if you can find historic evidence from WWI to show that there were I would very much like to see it. The Croix de Guerre is the French equivalent of the British "Mentioned in Despatches" and as such is given to signify each occurance of being mentioned. The French further denoted at what level the receipent of the award was mentioned, (i.e. regiment/brigade, division, corps, or army), by the use of attachments. The CdG was not given for the action itself but rather was given to signify that the person had been officially mentioned in dispatches for said action, thus the specific attachment. Your own note above about recipients of the LdH and MM also receiving a bronze palm for their CdG is additional proof of my point. These individuals had been officially mentioned at the army level as receiving these high honours and that official mention also got them a bronze palm to their CdG, (or if they did not have a CdG before then they also got that too, with the bronze palm attached).

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#16 tvrtko

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:09

Really great work Lou.
Keep up.

:S!: T
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#17 Louvert

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:41

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Pat's new medals are done and ready to go. Look for them in a PWCG update near you. :)

Image



Cheers!

Lou

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#18 HotTom

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:42

Wow! That looks great, Lou! :S!:
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#19 elephant

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:44

Great work Lou!
Thanks! :S!:
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#20 Louvert

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:50

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Thanks Gents, glad you like them. BTW, even though I didn't show them in the chart, all versions of the French CdG are included as are the bars for the British MM, MC, DFC, DSC, and DSO, as well as the oak leaf cluster for the USA DSC.

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#21 Rover_27

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:51

Louvert! That's fantastic! now I have to collect them all
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#22 HotTom

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:34

Just a small nit to pick:

The Distinguished Service Medal was indeed created during WWI but it is a non-combat award and reserved almost exclusively for generals, field marshals and a few monarchs. I don't think the rank structure in RoF goes that high. :mrgreen: You might consider eliminating it. The only US combat awards in WWI were the MOH and the DSC (both of which you included).

:S!:

HT
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#23 J.j.

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:43

http://www.theaerodr...als/usa/dsm.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...als/usa/dsm.php

On the other end, Ingalls was awarded the Navy DSM.
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#24 Louvert

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 07:17

Just a small nit to pick:

The Distinguished Service Medal was indeed created during WWI but it is a non-combat award and reserved almost exclusively for generals, field marshals and a few monarchs. I don't think the rank structure in RoF goes that high. :mrgreen: You might consider eliminating it. The only US combat awards in WWI were the MOH and the DSC (both of which you included).

:S!:

HT

Absolutely correct HT, and I was aware of that. However, I only involved myself in making new versions of the medals that Pat had included in his CM and did not get too deep into any possible revisions that might need to be made to keep things more historically accurate, (apart from providing him with images for the British MM). That being said, Pat may well be intending to make such revisions at a later date. As he told me when I was offering a few suggestions concerning this very subject: "One step at a time". A wise approach me thinks.

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#25 Barkhorn1x

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 13:40

Excellent work Lou. Love the presentation.
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#26 HotTom

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 18:36

Just a small nit to pick:

The Distinguished Service Medal was indeed created during WWI but it is a non-combat award and reserved almost exclusively for generals, field marshals and a few monarchs. I don't think the rank structure in RoF goes that high. :mrgreen: You might consider eliminating it. The only US combat awards in WWI were the MOH and the DSC (both of which you included).

:S!:

HT

Absolutely correct HT, and I was aware of that. However, I only involved myself in making new versions of the medals that Pat had included in his CM and did not get too deep into any possible revisions that might need to be made to keep things more historically accurate, (apart from providing him with images for the British MM). That being said, Pat may well be intending to make such revisions at a later date. As he told me when I was offering a few suggestions concerning this very subject: "One step at a time". A wise approach me thinks.

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Okay. Just wanted to make it clear. I don't think a pilot (unless he's Billy Mitchell) would be wearing a DSM. :mrgreen:
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#27 HotTom

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 18:43

http://www.theaerodr...als/usa/dsm.php

On the other end, Ingalls was awarded the Navy DSM.

The Navy DSM is a different award. Lou has portrayed the Army DSM.

As of WWI, the US Navy did not have a combat award secondary to the MOH and the equivalent of the Army's Distinguished Service Cross. There was no Navy Cross at that time.

The Navy DSM was created in 1919 and given higher precedence to the Navy Cross, also created in 1919 and awarded for combat and non-combat service. It was not until 1942 that the Navy Cross was changed to a combat-only award and given precedence over the DSM.

In short, Ingalls, who was the Navy's only ace, was given the award that was second in precedence to the MOH and the equivalent of the Army's DSC awarded to many Army aces at that time.

If that doesn't cure your insomnia, nothing will. :zzz:

There's an interview with Ingalls (who returned to active service in WWII and retired as an admiral) at 20:27 of this video with some interesting comments on the Camel:


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#28 J.j.

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 17:08

Secondly, there were no CdGs given without attachments and if you can find historic evidence from WWI to show that there were I would very much like to see it. The Croix de Guerre is the French equivalent of the British "Mentioned in Despatches" and as such is given to signify each occurance of being mentioned. The French further denoted at what level the receipent of the award was mentioned, (i.e. regiment/brigade, division, corps, or army), by the use of attachments. The CdG was not given for the action itself but rather was given to signify that the person had been officially mentioned in dispatches for said action, thus the specific attachment. Your own note above about recipients of the LdH and MM also receiving a bronze palm for their CdG is additional proof of my point. These individuals had been officially mentioned at the army level as receiving these high honours and that official mention also got them a bronze palm to their CdG, (or if they did not have a CdG before then they also got that too, with the bronze palm attached).

IT seems you're right, see here:
Image

My bad, so it seems the ROF award needs a correction! Luke? :D
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#29 HotTom

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 17:54

I just noticed this and maybe it's too late to change it…but…the medals should be displayed in their correct order of precedence with the highest award on the left (as you are facing them). The way you have them displayed is backwards.
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#30 PatAWilson

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 23:17

Not 100% sure but I think that they are currently displayed by date of issue.
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#31 Barkhorn1x

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 21:47

Not 100% sure but I think that they are currently displayed by date of issue.


…and that would explain the "reverse" positioning.
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#32 Louvert

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:48

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Yes, the medals are being displayed in the order they were received, and not their order of precedence. I'd prefer them to display in the latter form myself but that would require Pat to make coding changes and I have no clue how much work that would entail. I imagine each medal would need to be assigned a numeric value but then you would also have to contend with the awards of other countries as well. For instance, a French flyer who was awarded let's say a British DSO would display that after all his French honours, even though the DSO would be a higher award than the French CdG. It could get tricky. For now I suppose a person could go in and manually adjust dates of awards so they would display in order of precedence.


EDIT:

I checked it out and discovered all you need to do is rearrange the order of the entries, not the dates. So for example, in my current PWCG campaign, I have rearranged the medals entries in William Albert's 'CAMPAIGN' file to appear as follows:


Medals
{
Medal
{
Type = "Legion d' Honneur";
Date = 01/05/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Medaille Militaire";
Date = 07/01/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Medaille d' Honneur";
Date = 21/02/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Croix de Guerre with Silver Palm";
Date = 12/01/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Croix de Guerre with Silver Palm";
Date = 16/01/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Croix de Guerre with Silver Palm";
Date = 09/02/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Croix de Guerre with Silver Palm";
Date = 25/02/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Croix de Guerre with Silver Palm";
Date = 27/02/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Croix de Guerre with Silver Palm";
Date = 03/05/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Croix de Guerre with Silver Palm";
Date = 26/06/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Croix de Guerre with Silver Palm";
Date = 25/07/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Croix de Guerre with Bronze Palm";
Date = 31/07/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Insigne des Blesses Militaires";
Date = 15/01/1916;
}
Medal
{
Type = "Military Cross";
Date = 24/07/1916;
}
}
}



The resulting display now looks like this:

Image


Much better. :)

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#33 PatAWilson

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 12:29

Thanks Louvert - I can probably do that sort of thing programatically. I'll put it on the to do list. Gets a bit tricky for the Germans with their regional medals. I guess they would go after the national medals.
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#34 J.j.

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 17:31

I see two odds things on the French medals:

1) The Croix de Guerre was never awarded with one silver palm, one silver palm was wore "in lieu" of 5 bronze palms.

2) What is the "Médaille d'Honneur?"
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#35 Louvert

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 19:04

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J.j. you are quite right that the Croix de Guerre avec palme d'argent does indeed denote five awards of the CdG with bronze palm, which is precisely how it is being used in my example. Lt. Albert has 41 confirmed victories to his credit and as the practice was to present a CdG for each victory, voilà!
As to the Médaille d'Honneur, I believe there is only one example of it being awarded to a WWI flyer; 2nd Lt Douglas Cameron of No. 1 Squadron RFC/RAF. Pat included the medal in the CG as he felt the French were a bit light on variety.

Pat, that would be great if you could have the medals display in order of precedence. For the German awards, I believe they were displayed from lowest to highest with some sort of overall multi-state ranking system that I have yet to understand fully. I am only sure that the EK2c is always first in the row.

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#36 Gewehr98

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 05:09

Love the presentation with the medals!

One thing I would like to see as a dedicated tail gunner (aka crap pilot) is, instead of winning a pilot's badge, I'd like an observer's badge in my medal case.
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#37 J.j.

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  • Posts: 1959

Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:27

A Croix de Guerre with 41 palms seems very ulikely, as Fonck himself had 28. As for the Médaille d'Honneur, in fact it was the "Médaille d'Honneur des Affaires étrangères", often given for actions in the defense of France 's interests aboard.
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#38 Louvert

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 13:30

Love the presentation with the medals!

One thing I would like to see as a dedicated tail gunner (aka crap pilot) is, instead of winning a pilot's badge, I'd like an observer's badge in my medal case.

As you wish:

Attached File  ob.jpg   16.44KB   313 downloads Attached File  B_OB.jpg   16.83KB   305 downloads

:)

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#39 Gewehr98

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 15:20

yay! Thanks!
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#40 MaxDS

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:28

Is it too late to suggest the Purple Heart for the US?

Image

Source: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Purple_heart" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia....ki/Purple_heart

Also, Why is the WWI Victory Medal not shown on the image with the full list of Medals?
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