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Help Request: Looking for info on the British N.17


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#41 gavagai

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 23:31

Is it Ok to ask (beg, bother, whine)for a revision to the top speed of the Nieuport 17 to be 175kph TAS at 2000m? Right now the top speed is ~165kph at this altitude, which makes it slower than the Bebe N.11. It appears slow at all other altitudes as well, but this altitude is often cited.
:S!:

That's a problem with the Bebe, not the N17. Sources are contradictory on this point, but at the moment I would hate to see the N17 become another Sopwith Pup or Camel. I really like flying it right now, and it would become boring if it were running down the Albatrosses like the British scouts do. At the moment, the N17 vs Albatros D.III matchup is one of the best in the entire sim, and it seems close to historical descriptions, too.
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#42 Damocles

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 23:44

There is no time to order books. And stop asking for other revisions. Stay on topic.

Jason


The book is available for download, you can have it on your desk in a couple of minutes.
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#43 Panthercules

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:34

There is no time to order books. And stop asking for other revisions. Stay on topic.

Jason

Jason - I've gotten this book and am looking through it now. Some great skins lurking in it, but nothing seemingly useful about the cockpit or similar details so far (only about halfway through so far - a lot of operational details about the pilots, units and missions but not very much about the planes themselves, so far. Hopefully that stuff is in the back.

Jason - please check your PM for info regarding the stuff in this book.
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#44 WF2

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:28

There is no time to order books. And stop asking for other revisions. Stay on topic.

Jason

Geeee, Okay, just trying to help out.

Why the big rush over a plane that is 98% the same as what we have now?

Just curious?
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#45 hq_Jorri

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:56

I can understand. A nice experiment. See in what minimal time frame and with what minimal resources a new plane variant can be produced, and how profitable it i :). I hope it will be cause for 777 to consider more project like this (NAval Sopwith Pup with windshield and wing window?).
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#46 Mogster

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 13:41

There is no time to order books.

Jason

It appears to be available for download :?
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#47 Panthercules

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 16:01

There is no time to order books.

Jason

It appears to be available for download :?

I've already purchased, D/L'ed and reviewed the book and provided the info to Jason - nice find, and thanks to WF2 for the post/link to it.
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#48 Jason_Williams

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:45

Ok guys,

Small update. Thanks to help from the community and some research on our end it looks like we have enough info to create a plausible British N.17. I've always wanted this interesting variant of the N.17 in the game so I have been searching for a way to make it happen for a while. A very short window presented itself where we could attempt it. It's only possible because most of the work is simple 3D work and not major FM work. Anytime a change of power plant happens it dramatically increases development time.

We have VERY STRICT development schedules and that is why I had only a few days to research the topic. That's why there is no time to order books through the mail or fuss with other discussions. We can only do what we do if we stick to our schedules.

So, if there are no further issues that appear, you should see the British N.17 in a near future update. It will be a standalone aircraft and not a field mod, but if you don't already own the French N.17 I suggest you make sure you have it in your hangar.

:S!:

Jason
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#49 HotTom

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:59

Great news!
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#50 Feathered_IV

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:09

I hope this aircraft makes it through. Given the lack of documented evidence, one must make some deductions based on what is known. Or just as telling, on what isn't.
As the aircraft was manufactured in France and delivered to the British in France itself for operational use, the N.17's would not have had the benefit of other aircraft assembled by the Home Establishment, with all the native instruments and other resources on hand. There seems to be no evidence to suggest that significant numbers of British instruments were exported to France for the purpose of kitting out incomplete Nieuports. Nor does there seem to be any suggestion that the many Moranes and Spads delivered to the British had anything less than their regular compliment of French instruments when delivered. Certainly no service manuals for fitting out partially built French aircraft are to be found. Nor does there appear to be any any area where this massive task was known to take place.

It seems very likely that The N.17 carried it's own native instrumentation when delivered to the British. Given the amount of personalisation that went of at an operational level however, one could be certain that some British instruments were indeed added as modifications in the field.

Edit: beat me to it! :S!:
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#51 J.j.

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:44

I just hope we will have the options to mount - or dismount - French instruments as field mods, even if it is a "British" Nieuport.
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#52 Jason_Williams

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:01

I just hope we will have the options to mount - or dismount - French instruments as field mods, even if it is a "British" Nieuport.

Sorry J.J. this will not be possible.

Jason
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#53 Stick-95

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:03

As the man said about the book:

note: The price shown here is for download only.

Quick.

EDIT, didn't see the other post. never mind
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#54 J.j.

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:16

I just hope we will have the options to mount - or dismount - French instruments as field mods, even if it is a "British" Nieuport.

Sorry J.J. this will not be possible.

Jason

Ouch! Why's that? Impossibility to have two different instruments mesuring the same thing, like speed or altitude? Does this mean any different instrumentation (for example for Britsih SPADS, or for French or Birtish Strutters) is impossible?
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#55 navair2

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:45

A few more pics if they haven't been submitted:

Attached Files


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#56 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 23:30

A few more pics if they haven't been submitted:
Image

nice, I like the Se5-style windscreen
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#57 Jason_Williams

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 00:42

I just hope we will have the options to mount - or dismount - French instruments as field mods, even if it is a "British" Nieuport.

Sorry J.J. this will not be possible.

Jason

Ouch! Why's that? Impossibility to have two different instruments mesuring the same thing, like speed or altitude? Does this mean any different instrumentation (for example for Britsih SPADS, or for French or Birtish Strutters) is impossible?

We're simply not going to do it, It's a British bird at that point. But yes we can't have some gauges imperial and some metric in the same cockpit as far as I recall. I'll have to see what can be done with the Strutter since we have not built that one yet. If anyone has details on what the differences were there please send it now rather than later.

Jason
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#58 LukeFF

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:44

Jason, there are some pics of the French instrumentation in the Strutter here, especially this page: http://memorial.flig...rutphotod5.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://memorial.flig...rutphotod5.html

http://memorial.flig...r/Strutter.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://memorial.flig...r/Strutter.html

(it's an original-production plane)
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#59 M.H

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:11

http://s834.beta.pho...7climb.jpg.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://s834.beta.pho...cket.com/user/m … b.jpg.html
Did this help ?
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#60 pollux18

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 13:15

Exemple the Strutter French Mémorial Flight: http://memorial.flight.free.fr/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://memorial.flight.free.fr/

Follow the path: Workshop/Sop Strutter/…

You will see a lot of detail photo of the French version.

Image

Image

Image



Etc…
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#61 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 18:24

The RFC variants could reported go 5kph faster due to the reduced weight, and had an improved ceiling and climb, probably.

that would not make too much sense, more drag=slower while less weight=better climb as a rule of thumb.

there was a quote from Nieuport Aircraft of World War One by Ray Sanger on the aerodrome, that kind of confirms this suspicion:

Most Nieuport 17s delivered to the RFC came with the fittings for the central Vickers gun mounting, but Aircraft Depots were ordered to remove these and install a single over the wing Lewis gun on a Foster mounting. Trials were conducted using both guns, but showed a speed reduction of about 5 km/h, and a ceiling reduction of 1250 m. Time to 3000 m increased by 45 sec, while time to 4575 m increased by 6.5 minutes.
http://www.theaerodr...ament-help.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/aircr … -help.html
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#62 HotTom

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 18:54

The RFC variants could reported go 5kph faster due to the reduced weight, and had an improved ceiling and climb, probably.

that would not make too much sense, more drag=slower while less weight=better climb as a rule of thumb.

there was a quote from Nieuport Aircraft of World War One by Ray Sanger on the aerodrome, that kind of confirms this suspicion:

Most Nieuport 17s delivered to the RFC came with the fittings for the central Vickers gun mounting, but Aircraft Depots were ordered to remove these and install a single over the wing Lewis gun on a Foster mounting. Trials were conducted using both guns, but showed a speed reduction of about 5 km/h, and a ceiling reduction of 1250 m. Time to 3000 m increased by 45 sec, while time to 4575 m increased by 6.5 minutes.
http://www.theaerodr...ament-help.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theaerodr...com/forum/aircr … -help.html

Zebra, I think he's talking about using both the Vickers and the Lewis at the same time.

You keep dragging this quote from thread to thread and using it incorrectly each time.
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#63 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 19:19

well, if you take one gun away (the definatly less draggy, heavier one), you would still having the drag effect, but less weight. that was what I am trying to say. The reducing in topspeed would come from the draggy mounting, not the extra weight, while climb limits most likly come from the weight side. clearer now?
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#64 HotTom

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 19:27

This is getting to be an impossible conversation because, in addition to Jason's thread, WF2 started her own thread on the same topic and you keep hopping back and forth between the two. And I'm dumb enough to keep following you. :mrgreen:

In any case, again quoting Totalspoon in The Aerodrome Forum:

"The British fitted the Lewis as it gave better performance. Trials conducted using both guns, but showed that when fitted with the lighter Lewis Gun, speed increased by about 5 km/h, and ceiling improved by 1250 m. Time to 3000 m decreased by 45 sec, while time to 4575 m decreased by 6.5 minutes."

Assuming his data is valid, that appears to contradict what you are advocating (or guessing).
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#65 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 19:36

meh, discussing 2nd hand quotes is rather futile, but dear tom, you as a historian should be more then suspicious when those numbers are numerically excatly the same as in the other quote regarding 2 guns, only with an inverse meaning. Someone is quoting something wrong there, time to look it up in the book (which I don´t have..)
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#66 HotTom

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 19:46

meh, discussing 2nd hand quotes is rather futile, but dear tom, you as a historian should be more then suspicious when those numbers are numerically excatly the same as in the other quote regarding 2 guns, only with an inverse meaning. Someone is quoting something wrong there, time to look it up in the book (which I don´t have..)

Yes. I noticed that and agree completely. All the more reason for citing sources. :S!:
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#67 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 19:52

^^ true. S!
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#68 Mogster

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 00:04

Why would they fit both guns if they were looking for a performance increase? Testing with both guns mounted makes no sense.
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#69 HotTom

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:41

To see what effect mounting both would have?

Some French units mounted both, Lafayette Escadrille for example.

Seems a reasonable thing to test.
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#70 Raine

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:41

Here's the result of my trip to Ottawa. The Canadian Aviation and Space Museum's Np17 is a flyable replica, carefully rebuilt with professional historical input to copy Billy Bishop's machine. The earlier restoration work was tightened up following a smash-up in the late 1980s. Because the aviation museum had loaned the Np17 to the Canadian War Museum,I headed over to the war museum tonight.

I was disappointed to find the aircraft was ceiling-mounted, so a close-up of the instrumentation was impossible to obtain. But I was still able to make some hopefully useful observations. First, the museum had a very enlarged poster of the well-known photo of Bishop in the Nieuport with the Lewis pulled down on the Foster mount. I had suspected that there might be a dark faced instrument on the right side of the cockpit, above where the French tach would be, but that was not clearly visible even in the enlargement. There was, however, a period pitot on the lead edge of the starboard V-strut, so we can assume there was a British airspeed indicator on board.

There was a non-period altimeter mounted on the right side of the windscreen, which we can ignore. In a separate display under glass, there was a bullet-holed Nieuport windscreen Bishop had kept as a trophy, which I photographed. On it was mounted a simple bubble-type bank indicator. It is visible in some period photographs. There were two small pewter-coloured plates on the instrument. The one on the left bore the manufacturer's name over another word, possibly the manufacturer's location. The one one the right bore the letters "w" and "d" for War Department, separated by the War Department arrow symbol.

I realize that you are working to a time restriction, but I will be back in Ottawa in late March and can make appointments to do research in the considerable archives of both museums. Please PM me if there is anything you have a particular interest in.

I will PM you with some other photos I took tonight that may assist future developments.

Attached Files


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#71 Chill31

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:00

Raine, nice pics!

For those discussing performace changes due to gun mounts…

Climb performance is based on excess power which can be found by plotting power required vs power available. Where the excess is maximum, the climb rate is greatest.

To directly affect the climb rate, add weight to the airplane. If you increase the weight by 10%, you reduce the climbrate by ~10%. In this way, you could do some math and figure out the configuration of the aircraft as it was tested by comparing performance figures if you trust those figures.

Drag on the other hand is not as easy to figure out, but you could approximate it if you knew the weight change and the performance change. Whatever cannot be accounted for by weight must be increases in drag.

My point is that there is no need to guess about these things if you have at least one set of reliable test data.
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#72 gavagai

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 03:01

Looking at that ambiguous quote again, I think we are forced to conclude it describes testing the aircraft with 2 guns at the same time. (1) When it mentions the performance decrease, it does not mention a specific weapon being responsible for it. (2) The French (and later the British) would have been retarded to use the Vickers gun on the N17 if its performance impact had been so large *by itself*.

Totalspoon's *interpretation* of the quote is wishful thinking, nothing more.
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#73 ER_O_v._Kessler

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:39

Maybe that this files help a little bit

http://www.mediafire...p43y2rybl3aqqla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mediafire...p43y2rybl3aqqla

http://www.mediafire...41omke3pcukcyww" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mediafire...41omke3pcukcyww
:S!:
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Spandau.. What else ?? :icon_mad:


#74 Mogster

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 09:50

I do hope this initiative proves a viable way of funding changes to existing or new versions of planes we already have. If this works then I don't see why a similar model couldn't be applied to the DVII Diiiau for instance or the Camel engine variants.

Giving the RFC Nieuport to existing customers is the ideal solution as a customer and a nice gesture, I would have been prepared to pay for these changes though.
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#75 joecar

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 14:11

I do not know if these are common knowledge or have anything useful for Jason and the team, but I find these aircraft profiles interesting. Have not seen them posted here before (but probably have been…).
http://www.scribd.co...The-Nieuport-17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.scribd.co...c/104101045/Air … ieuport-17
http://www.scribd.co...file-Series-OOP" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.scribd.co...llections/37303 … Series-OOP
And many thanks for a new FREE plane soon!
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#76 redcoat22

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:44

I do hope this initiative proves a viable way of funding changes to existing or new versions of planes we already have. If this works then I don't see why a similar model couldn't be applied to the DVII Diiiau for instance or the Camel engine variants.

Giving the RFC Nieuport to existing customers is the ideal solution as a customer and a nice gesture, I would have been prepared to pay for these changes though.
I intend to gift a n17 to someone that would not normally buy it. I suppose it's my attempt to spur other such variant projects
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#77 Mogster

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 00:27

That's an excellent idea.
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#78 hq_Jorri

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:15

Indeed a very good idea!
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#79 J.j.

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 14:31

Here you go, a Vickers-less French Nieuport 17 of Escadrille de chasse N 103:

Image
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#80 BillyKid

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 19:03

Has an information thread been started yet for the 1 1/2 Strutter for images and tables? Looking for same for the Roland C2a and the Halb d2 as well.
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