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Help Request: Looking for info on the British N.17


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#1 Jason_Williams

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 16:14

Pilots,

We are interested in POSSIBLY adding the British N.17 as a stand-alone plane to ROF. To even consider it fully we need more information such as the cockpit layout (were there British gauges?), Lewis mount and any other differences that existed. Once we have some serious references we can better evaluate what we can do. For planning purposes we need this info this week.

We need pics, drawings, specs and other serious references. Post in this thread if you want to help. Please only the British N.17 with the single Lewis. We are not doing anything to the French N.17.

Jason
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#2 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 17:02

When is the deadline that you need this info for Jason?

I have a lot of sources but am not home with them until the weekend. Then it becomes a choice of you can have it done quickly or you can have it done right.

Would be useful to know when exactly you need it and in how much detail.
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#3 Hokus

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 17:37

UK variant
http://mwmiller.thea.../n17/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://mwmiller.thea.../n17/index.html

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#4 Panthercules

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 17:41

Great news Jason - been looking forward to this possibility for a long time. I'm not sure how much info I have on the details (will have to look when I get back from work later tonight), but I'll be glad to post anything I can find. And of course I'll be happy to rework any of my existing British N17 skins to port them to the new model when the time comes.
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#5 gavagai

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 18:08

The British N17 had three drums for the Lewis gun. At takeoff, one on the gun itself, and two more drums on either side of the pilot, similar to the current single-Lewis weapon mod for the French N17.

(the Nieuport's Lewis) was on a quadrant so that it could be pulled down to a vertical position to enable the pilot to change ammunition drums when empty and clear stoppages. Two spare full drums fixed on spindles by a catch were located one each side on the inside of the cockpit. Special drums, twice the normal capacity of ground types, were made for the RFC, each carrying just under 100 rounds

Air Battle, William Fry, 60sqn

So, 3*97 = 291 rounds of ammunition.
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#6 Chill31

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 18:50

Great news Jason - been looking forward to this possibility for a long time. I'm not sure how much info I have on the details (will have to look when I get back from work later tonight), but I'll be glad to post anything I can find. And of course I'll be happy to rework any of my existing British N17 skins to port them to the new model when the time comes.

I am curious, why have you been looking forward to this for a long time?
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#7 NewGuy_

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 18:56

Image

If someone can confirm that this is indeed a picture of Albert Ball's N17 or a picture of any actual fielded British N17, for that matter, I request that both spinner and clear (plastic?) center upper wing cut out be made available as part of a field mod add-on option in the store. The team might also consider a personalization add-on that allows one to select a variety of spinner colors, for the British N17, and for all other ROF planes that may have spinners (or radiator covers) as field mods, in the future.

:S!: MJ

The source for my picture was a website, found here: Albert Ball website The picture can be found under the section titled, 'Aircraft Flown,' on the bottom of the page, at the right hand side.
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#8 hq_Jorri

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 19:01

Great news, I sincerely hope you guys manage to squeeze this into your planning :)
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#9 HotTom

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 19:09

It would be greatly appreciated and purchased immediately (by me at least)!

Thanks, Jason!
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#10 Chill31

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 20:04

Would someone please identify the differences to me? I am not yet sure of why anyone would be excited…if it was a D7 with d3au engine, or a N28 which turned as a N28 should, I would understand the cause for excitement. As it is, a N17 with english instruments and a single lewis is causing a stir and I dont get it.
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#11 hq_Jorri

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 20:07

Because the British N17, with no Vickers and the foster mount, is way cool. And we don't have it. And we might get it.

Like I said, way cool.
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#12 MarcoRossolini

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 20:19

It would be greatly appreciated and purchased immediately (by me at least)!

Thanks, Jason!


Most definitely likewise!
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#13 NewGuy_

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 20:28

Would someone please identify the differences to me? I am not yet sure of why anyone would be excited…if it was a D7 with d3au engine, or a N28 which turned as a N28 should, I would understand the cause for excitement. As it is, a N17 with english instruments and a single lewis is causing a stir and I dont get it.

Perhaps the team will consider introducing engine mods, then you can have your DVII DIIIau, so you may have the most common DVII type and I can have my 1918 220 hp/235 hp SPAD XIIIs, so I may actually have a late war SPAD to use against the numerous late war Central rides, already in game. Until such a time, we may both not understand the priority of a British Nieuport 17, but apparently others in the community do get the priority. They want it in the store. It is not a total lose, though. I actually prefer the N11 over the N17. If the (lighter?) British N17 is a bit more like the N11, I may take a liking to the British N17, as I have really taken a liking to the French N11. Currently, I would take a Nieuport 11 or a 150 hp SPAD VII over a French N17, any day of the week, without second thought. The British N17 may be a better Nieuport alternative to the French Nieuport 11 and the French Nieuport 17, though I doub't I will like it nearly as much as the 150 HP SPAD VII. Still, I will keep an open mind about this British machine.

I even have a historical source where an American pilot openly expressed his desire to get selected to pilot an early SPAD VII (a 140 hp SPAD, as I think he described it), over the French N17, while serving in a French Escadrille, so my feelings about the French N17 may have been shared by real life American pilots. :P I have to find the source again. It might be James Norman Hall, but I have to look back and make sure.
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#14 Raine

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 20:38

Jason,

I'm working in Ottawa Wednesday through Friday. While there, I will try to get to see the RFC Np 17 held by the Canada Aviation and Space Museum and send you some close-up photos.
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#15 Raine

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 20:48

Here's a good view of the gun mount on NP17 serial 1566 [Source: Canadian Aviation and Space Museum]

Attached Files


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#16 NewGuy_

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 20:53

Here's a good view of the gun mount on NP17 serial 1566 [Source: Canadian Aviation and Space Museum]

I really like that low profile mount for the British N17. It is not flush, but as close to flush as you can get, I suppose. The low profile British mount makes the British N17 look pretty sharp.

;)
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#17 Jason_Williams

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 21:18

Please no damn politicking or any other discussion. Just keep feeding us references. So far, there is little of use. Still missing some good cockpit pics. If that Canadian Museum is an original that would help clarify some things Raine. Thanks in advance.

Jason
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#18 Damocles

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 22:03

N17 cockpit

I think it's supposed to be one of the Canadian ace's planes, his name eludes me at the moment. Top scorer chap, maybe told a few porkies, you know who, whachamacallit. The clue is the taco in the windscreen.

Ahhh!!! Bishop, that's the fella.
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#19 navair2

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 22:30

If that Canadian Museum is an original that would help clarify some things Raine. Thanks in advance.

Jason


I believe it's a replica, Jason: http://1000aircraftp...ngBill/6494.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://1000aircraftp...s.com/Contribut … l/6494.htm,

and here: http://aviation.tech...aft/Nieuport17/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://aviation.tech...ses.ca/collecti … ieuport17/ :cry:
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#20 thenorm

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 22:46

Perhaps you could contact them and find out how much info they have, on the subject, hopefully some references came along with the replica…
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#21 Raine

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 22:50

I think it's a replica, too – the number is Bishop's from 60 Sqn. But the key will be to find out what authority they used for the cockpit reconstruction. This is an fairly academic group, not a flying club, so if their source material was first rate the information might be usable.
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#22 LukeFF

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 22:54

Yes, it's definitely a replica: http://www.friends-a...nieuport_e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.friends-a...nieuport_e.html

The aircraft owned by the National Aviation Museum (NAM) represents B 1566, which was one of 204 Nieuport, SPAD and Morane-Saulnier aircraft purchased from French manufacturers to support the Royal Flying Corps in France. The original reproduction was built by Mr. Carl Swanson of Sycamore, Illinois, to German drawings, and was completed in December 1961 in the markings of Escadrille N.124, Lafayette, of the French air service, with the serial number N2474. In this guise, it was armed with a fuselage-mounted Vickers gun. In February 1963, it was purchased for the National Aviation Museum by an anonymous donor, and was modified by Carl Swanson to the configuration of B1566 as shown in contemporary photographs. It was delivered to the Museum in April 1963 and placed on display in June 1963. On 4 May 1967, it was flown by the late Wing Commander Paul Hartman, a well known Royal Canadian Air Force test pilot, and, during the summers of 1972 to 1989, was flown at air shows across Canada, with the civil registration CF-DDK. Unfortunately, it was completely wrecked in an accident at the Abbotsford Air Show on 9 August 1989. It has been replaced by a new reproduction constructed by the restoration staff of the NAM, using a few parts salvaged from the wreckage.

Note the text in bold.
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#23 hq_Jorri

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 23:08

Ha, I like that! 'Original reproduction'….
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#24 =III=Flav

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 10:04

It would be greatly appreciated and purchased immediately (by me at least)!

Thanks, Jason!


Most definitely likewise!
Three's company…
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#25 Hokus

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:48

Duxford Nieuport 17 cockpit view.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=rAVdmcXsBOQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">
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#26 150GCT_Veltro

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 14:54

N17 cockpit

I think it's supposed to be one of the Canadian ace's planes, his name eludes me at the moment. Top scorer chap, maybe told a few porkies, you know who, whachamacallit. The clue is the taco in the windscreen.

Ahhh!!! Bishop, that's the fella.

Also here.

Image
http://www.canadaatwar.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=9362
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#27 O_WolfPac

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 14:55



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Image
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#28 Gunsmith86

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 15:08

French Fighters in British Service During WW1
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2000/06/stuff_eng_profile_frenchww1.htm

British Nieuport 17/23 Ammo question
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/aircraft/31275-british-nieuport-17-23-ammo-question.html
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#29 Karma-Police

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 15:26

Image

Don't forget that the Aldis sight as the same angle than that of the Lewis machine-gun.
You've forgotten this detail on the SE5a so don't do it again on the Nieuport…
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#30 Waxworks

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 15:37

There's an image in the section 'Some photos from the inauguration' here: Replica Nieuport B3459
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#31 piecost

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 17:21

Great pictures/video of the Duxford N17. However, it is a Warner powered replica:

Data Topic for Airplanes Performance.
post #25
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#32 Mogster

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 17:21

Would someone please identify the differences to me? I am not yet sure of why anyone would be excited…if it was a D7 with d3au engine, or a N28 which turned as a N28 should, I would understand the cause for excitement. As it is, a N17 with english instruments and a single lewis is causing a stir and I dont get it.

I'm interested in it, removing the Vickers and all of its mounting paraphernalia must make some difference to the handling of such a lightweight plane surely. Its a classic RFC plane, the overwing Lewis gives it a classic look. It should be in game, with it available to the AI. There's been quite a few posters asking for this for a while.

I don't see this as being a massive project but I'm still happy to pay for it. I also don't see why doing this is any less worthy that your suggestions, I'm not sure why you have such a beef with it. If its a case of the RFC N17 or the revisions you suggest then of course I'd take the revisions but I don't see that we're being asked to make that choice.
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#33 Jason_Williams

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 19:02

Image

Don't forget that the Aldis sight as the same angle than that of the Lewis machine-gun.
You've forgotten this detail on the SE5a so don't do it again on the Nieuport…

We did not forget, technology limitation.

Jason
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#34 1PL-Sahaj-1Esk

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 19:24

Would someone please identify the differences to me? I am not yet sure of why anyone would be excited…if it was a D7 with d3au engine, or a N28 which turned as a N28 should, I would understand the cause for excitement. As it is, a N17 with english instruments and a single lewis is causing a stir and I dont get it.

I am with Chill31 here, a N11 bis not more not less. Still better than not having it in though.
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#35 Gadfly21

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 19:54

Is it Ok to ask (beg, bother, whine)for a revision to the top speed of the Nieuport 17 to be 175kph TAS at 2000m? Right now the top speed is ~165kph at this altitude, which makes it slower than the Bebe N.11. It appears slow at all other altitudes as well, but this altitude is often cited.

The RFC variants could reported go 5kph faster due to the reduced weight, and had an improved ceiling and climb, probably.

This Nieuport has a twin Foster mount, cooling jackets modified, and flat-style windscreen. Iron sight hangs from wing.

Image

Spinner, mounted on RFC and French versions:

Image

:S!:
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#36 J.j.

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 20:00

Sorry to hijack but I'll be quick. The option to have also the "normal" French instruments with this Vickers- less Nieuport will be appreicated too, to simulate all the French Nieuports which fly with only a Lewis gun. They were not the majority, but in summer 1916 and some special Nieuports 17 were flied without the Vickers in combat.
So please, give us the option with this "new" Nieuport to have French instruments in addition to the Britsih one, as field mods for example.
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#37 Waxworks

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 21:26

More detail from Bob Gauld-Galliers at the.aerodrome.com on the St. Omer Nieuport I linked above:

"The Nieuport 17. B3459 is a full-size Repro in the markings of Captain P F Fullard of No 1 Squadron RFC. He was credited 42 victories over a mere five months of operation, seventeen of them in his Nieuport 17 B3459. John Day my co-builder and I started the project in 1992 and she first flew in 1997. We used Redfern and Rozendaal (the later, German drawings of a captured machine).

'The office'

For detail we spent some time at the Brussels Army museum, Belgium, measuring and photographing the only surviving genuine Nie.17. That like B3459 is actually a Nie.23, a later sub-type which differed from the better known Nie.17 only in the position of the Vickers gun on the upper fuselage. The RFC removed the Vickers completely in favour of a wing mounted Lewis on a Foster mount, so the model difference was irrelevant.

'Engine & cheek cowlings removed'.

We thought about fitting a rotary engine, and knew of two up for sale, but rotarys have a short life and you have to aquire a permit every time you fly other than local. So proudly sitting up front is a radial 'Warner Super Scarab' engine. The Scarab nominally develops 165 hp at 2,250 rpm, but the big mahogany propeller limits its rpm to 1,800. So on take-off it only produces about 120 hp, similar to the Le Rhone or Clerget rotaries. The Scarab sounds lovely and so it should do, slurping up 7 Imperial gallons an hour.

Performance: Cruise speed 95 mph. Stall 52 mph. Range 173 miles. S/L climb rate 800 fpm. Service ceiling 18,000 ft. Take-off distance 350 ft. Landing distance 250 ft."

While the absence of the Vickers should make the speed similar to the single-gun French Nieuport, and the climb should improve slightly, isn't the Nieuport 11 along with the Pup far too fast? It would seem foolish to ruin another Entente scout.
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#38 Gunsmith86

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 22:35

Surce:
NIEUPORT AIRCRAFT OF WORLD WAR ONE
http://www.amazon.com/Nieuport-Aircraft-Wold-Crowood-Aviation/dp/186126447X/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1360103247&sr=8-5&keywords=NIEUPORT+AIRCRAFT+OF+WORLD+WAR+ONE
No images of the RFC Cockpit only the text belowe in it

Page: 48
Most of the Nieuport 17s were delivered
to the RFC with the French specification
fittings for the fuselage-mounted Vickers
gun, but the Aircraft Depots were ordered
to remove these and fit single Lewis guns on
Foster mountings instead. A trial was made
with both guns fitted, but the performance
of the aircraft proved to be inferior, the
speed reduced by skm/h (3mph) and the
ceiling by l,2s0m (4, 100ft), and the time at
3,000m (9,8s0ft) and 4,s7sm (ls,OOOft)
increased by 4ssec and 6.smin respectively.
Furthermore the Vickers gun was considered
unreliable, and stoppages could not be
cleared as the guns were inaccessible.

Nieuports delivered from the factory did
not have an instrument panel, the few
instruments being attached to various parts
of the airframe. After a trial this omission
was soon rectified by the RFC as a field
modification.
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#39 WF2

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 22:55

Might I suggest that you buy Nieuports in RNAS RFC and RAF Service, published by Cross and Cockade International. You will find everything there anyone needs to know about Nieuports.

Image

Enjoy!
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#40 Jason_Williams

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 23:22

There is no time to order books. And stop asking for other revisions. Stay on topic.

Jason
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