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Ground textures "smart blur" mod


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#41 NattyIced

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:47

It would appear that with making the ground texture more detailed, and a higher resolution, the blurring of some larger defined lines disappeared and caused more of a thick line that pixelated more while the finer lines became more apparent.

Potential solution - redo the textures to introduce more gradient for the lines in question to retain the fine line detail of smaller drawn lines, revert back to the prior textures with less fine detail in other areas, apply AnKor's mod, or simply never attempt to improve graphic quality as another individual suggested.

Something worthy of note, if the shader's quality is set to max then the lightened lines that have the pixelated look are quite nice when viewed closely and using Anisotropic x4 but then after some distance go into the jagged look again further out until the Anisotropic x4 stops and it goes back to <probably> bilnear to become blurry again.
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"Now comes a matter that I want to discuss with you: Our aircraft, quite frankly, are ridiculously inferior to British [aircraft]. The [Sopwith] Triplane and 200hp SPAD, as well as the Sopwith [Camel] single-seater, play with our [Albatros] D.V. In addition to having better-quality aircraft, they have far more [of them]. Our really good fighter pilots are lost in this manner. The D.V is so far surpassed by and so ridiculously inferior to the British single-seaters that one cannot begin to do anything with [the D.V]. But the people at home have brought out no new machines for almost a year, [only] these lousy Albatroses, and have remained stuck with the Albatros D.III [types], in which I fought in the autumn of last year." - Manfred von Richtofen


#42 AnKor85

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:05

After messing with shaders I started to suspect, though I can be wrong, that ROF renders ground textures in two steps: first it mixes various layer together to produce a new texture in memory, then it applies this custom texture to the actual landscape.

This will explain why some of you didn't see the minecrafty look. Setting texture quality to low while keeping other settings on high (as I did) only affects how original textures are drawn onto the intermediate one which still remain high res and retains sharp edges. However, lowering landscape quality affects the size of intermediate texture and thus makes it blurry hiding the jaggies.

This led me to a though - what about that shimmering in the distance? Part of it is caused by forests and cannot be solved easily, but even without forests - it doesn't look right. Now, I suspect the answer may be hidden in that intermediate texture. It looks like it doesn't have enough (or even any) mipmap levels and always rendered at full resolution. This isn't a good thing however - at large distance way too many texture elements should be combined into single pixel on the screen and no amount of anisotropic filtering can handle that. This is what produces shimmering because small change of viewing angle causes completely different texture elements to be drawn for the same pixels.

Unfortunately mip map generation is something that is controlled by the application and I can't make a mod to test this assumption.

Potential solution - redo the textures to introduce more gradient for the lines in question to retain the fine line detail of smaller drawn lines
This is most likely what they did with British textures. But I doubt they are going to update the Western Front.
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#43 AnKor85

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:31

EDITED 26.01.13
LOOK FOR UPDATED VERSION OF THE MOD HERE
- Re: Ground textures "smart blur" mod

—————

Or maybe I was wrong and anisotropy can handle that and I can make a mod for it.

Take a look - for me this tiny mod it eliminates ground detail shimmering (except forests, but that's another issue):
Attached File  Ground - No Shimmering.zip   1.24KB   65 downloads

This mod is experimental - I made it during a tea break - I don't know what side effects it has. At least it looks like FPS aren't affected (on my already old GTX 285) and sharpness of the image is more or less unchanged.

I need to think more about what to do with forests shimmering, but I don't have time at the moment.
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#44 ROSS_DiFiS

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 09:49

Or maybe I was wrong and anisotropy can handle that and I can make a mod for it

wow! wow! wow! it is a BOMB!
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#45 WW1EAF_Paf

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 17:08

Very Good!

I checked your mod with my textures and the jaggies are gone. The fields (of my own texture) lost some detail, but from near it looks much smoother now.
Image
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#46 71st_AH_Mastiff

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 17:21

you know I do allot of map reading and what gets me is allot of the roads are not on the map… Hard to navigate!
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#47 89

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 20:19

Does this mean there is no need for Sparse Grid SS? The jaggy landscape is solved once and for all?
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#48 Panthercules

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:39

Does this mean there is no need for Sparse Grid SS? The jaggy landscape is solved once and for all?


Hmm - I just ran a quick test with this anti-shimmer mod after turning off the 2x SG-SSAA I always run with. The mod did a very good job reducing the shimmering - not quite as good as the SG-SSAA did, but pretty darn close - certainly a very promising move in the right direction, and definitely worth some further work.

Thanks for sharing this - could be a real boon for the ATI/AMD card folks who don't seem to be able to use SG-SSAA like the nVidia crowd can.
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#49 Panthercules

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:46

AnKor you are a magician!

Just flew another couple of career missions with your anti-shimmer mod. I hate shimmering so much I may stay with my SG-SSAA, BUT if I didn't hate it so much and look so hard for it (and hadn't already seen how good it looks with SG-SSAA on), I doubt if I would even notice what tiny bit of shimmering is still left with this. I'm pretty sure that for most people, who aren't as fixated about it as I am, this would be very acceptable. If you can get it this good just throwing something together during a tea break, I can't wait to see if you can make it that last little bit better with maybe a little more time on it.

I've only tested it with my current SweetFX and landscape texture and noise mod setup so far, so I can't say what it does with the stock textures, but I have not noticed any FPS hit (if there is one, it's at least counterbalanced by the FPS gain from turning of the SG-SSAA, at least for me) or other noticeable side effects so far.

Well done :S!:
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#50 AnKor85

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:33

Thanks!
I need to try that sparse grid antialiasing (as I have nVidia card), I saw it was mentioned around forums several times, but always forgot to check it out :)

And you are right that enabling SSAA will always produce better results. There are many sources of shimmering - some can be dealt with, but some (like building) not.

However, this obviously worth looking into. The problem is - I still unsure if there are no side effects. Devs told my mod will led to issues with ground texture tiles mismatching at their edges, but I don't see anything like that. What I suspect though, is that my mod may make texture LOD transitions more noticeable, but that requires testing. So far I haven't seen any obvious issues running at High settings.
What I hope to achieve if many people can confirm that "smart blur" and "anti-shimmer" doesn't have bad side effects for them - then these mods can be accepted by devs. They are very simple mods - much simpler than some may imagine.
After all I want to play online sometimes and with all recent graphics mods the difference between "mods on" and "mods off" becomes too pronounced.
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#51 Panthercules

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:40

Well, the above tests were done without also using your smart blur mod (I'd taken it out since it didn't seem to be needed with all the texture/noise stuff I was running). I've put it back in now and will test them both together when I get a chance tomorrow.

I didn't see anything that I noticed in the way of LOD transitions being worse or anything, but I was so focused on trying to compare the shimmering that I might have missed something. I'll keep an eye out for that kind of stuff tomorrow as well.

Yeah - maybe too early to tell for sure, but it still seems very promising to me at this point.
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#52 O_WolfPac

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 13:39

put your settings to low low settings and what you may see is the tiled ground textures dont match up with the next tile

I think lowest settings will highlight tipfall ahead
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#53 Panthercules

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 17:13

put your settings to low low settings and what you may see is the tiled ground textures dont match up with the next tile

I think lowest settings will highlight tipfall ahead

Yeah - could be - I always run with highest settings but I know not everyone can/does, so you would have to look at it under all the settings to make sure it isn't really trashing something on lower settings.
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#54 AnKor85

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 18:46

Can you post any screenshots showing what is wrong at low details?
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#55 Panthercules

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 05:36

Hey AnKor - I was running some tests on the Channel map, and realized I definitely will have to turn SG-SSAA back on because this mod of yours doesn't seem to do anything about shimmering on the water expanses. Not sure if there's anything you can do to this mod or something similar to address that issue.

But, it got me thinking - is there any way for you to work your magic and come up with a mod to reduce the reflectiveness (reflectivity?) of the channel map water. I generally run with RoF's reflections setting set to high (maximum picks up too much sky and distorts colors of the skins too much for my personal taste), but even with turning that down further the sea water of the channel still seems a bit too much like flat calm lake water to me in terms of how much it reflects things. Not horrible or anything, but if there were a simple way to tone that down some with one of your magic mods, that would be great.

Just thought I'd mention it in case you're looking for another challenge during your next tea break :lol: :S!:
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#56 AnKor85

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 07:31

Yeah water shimmering is really annoying. I think there is some realism in it, but in ROF it is most likely a side effect and not the intended feature.

However, I haven't looked into it because, well, if I ever use Channel map I don't fly over the sea, I even want to make a mod for QM to start deeper into England. Of course I played around with the new water physics during first days after the release, but now I don't feel any interest. That's why I had completely forgotten about the sea water until you reminded me.

As for reflections, I never thought about them, but it should be possible to tune them down. Also it may be possible to make the sea look more like it's made of water instead of liquid metal. Though for the reasons stated above I doubt I will be messing with it a lot.
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#57 Panthercules

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:28

Though for the reasons stated above I doubt I will be messing with it a lot.

Aw man - hate to hear that :(

I hope you change your mind at some point, because you seem to be able to work some fine magic where you want to. :S!:
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#58 gavagai

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 13:04

I think Feathered's mod that changes the color of the sea handles the last point, no? I hope he does something about the shallow coastal water, too.
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#59 hq_Jorri

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 13:21

WEll one thing that adds to the 'metallic' look of our water is the lack of foam, I think.
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#60 Panthercules

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 16:57

I think Feathered's mod that changes the color of the sea handles the last point, no? I hope he does something about the shallow coastal water, too.

I like the color change of Feathered's mod, but I'm not sure whether/how much it addressed the other issues - I'll have to look closer and see.
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#61 Jason_Williams

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:50

AnKor,

The No Shimmer mod is really, really nice. Not sure what you did, but man it works well on my machine.

Jason
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#62 hq_Peter_Zvan

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:30

Just a quick question - does this work with mods off and online?
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#63 AnKor85

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:05

Just a quick question - does this work with mods off and online?
No. :cry:
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#64 89

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 14:57

AnKor,

The No Shimmer mod is really, really nice. Not sure what you did, but man it works well on my machine.

Jason

Do you think it deserves to be included into the online and mods off modes? Sparse Grid SS works well against shimmering, but costs performance…
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#65 J.j.

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:43

So, I'm sorry but I'm a little bit confused;

Which mod to use? THe no-shimmer one, the smart blur mod, the pre 1.029 one? What are the differences? Did they work altogether?
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#66 WW1EAF_Paf

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:53

The pre 1.029 restores the old look of landscape, less sharpen - less jaggies.
"Smart Blur" keeps the sharpen on the fields but blurs the roads to have less jaggies there.
"No shimmer" reduces shimmer of textures at the horizon without FPS-loss (A must have for everyone who cant run Supersampling)
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#67 J.j.

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:03

Thanks a lot for such a resume!

Can I use both the noshimmer mod andSupersampling (activated by NVIDIA Inspektor), or this is not necessary?
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#68 AnKor85

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:52

J.j., I don't know if there will be additional benefits from "no shimmer" when already using supersampling. Perhaps, yes, but I don't know for sure.

And as Paf correctly said: you can use EITHER "pre 1029" OR "smart blur", but you can combine any of these two with "no shimmer". This no shimmer was just a side effect of my experiments that't why it is posted in this thread instead of separate one.

The problem for me is once I started using these mods I can barely play online, because I have to turn them off and the graphics difference is too noticeable.
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#69 89

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:19

You have a closer contact with Jason, did he mention anything about incorporating your antishimmer mod into the game itself?
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#70 AnKor85

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:41

Devs told me that the way I did it (which is just enabling mipmaps+anisotropic filter for ground textures, though I'm not even sure if mipmaps are actually used) will result in visible seams between texture tiles. So far I haven't seen any such issues.

I didn't insist because I don't really know much in this field.
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#71 89

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:09

Devs told me that the way I did it (which is just enabling mipmaps+anisotropic filter for ground textures, though I'm not even sure if mipmaps are actually used) will result in visible seams between texture tiles. So far I haven't seen any such issues.

I didn't insist because I don't really know much in this field.

Nobody in this thread had such issues, even Jason said that it worked well on his machine. Maybe they could add it as an option in .ini (to save them from making GUI for it)?
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#72 O_Caldwell

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:33

Devs told me that the way I did it (which is just enabling mipmaps+anisotropic filter for ground textures, though I'm not even sure if mipmaps are actually used) will result in visible seams between texture tiles. So far I haven't seen any such issues.

I didn't insist because I don't really know much in this field.

I can confirm this issue as being true on my computer. The "Tile issue" is only visible for me on the lake map( water tiles only ) and when viewed from an oblique angle down low, just before touch down.
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#73 hq_Jorri

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:40

Damn Caldwell you have to spoil everything dont you :(
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#74 O_Caldwell

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 17:20

Damn Caldwell you have to spoil everything dont you :(

Please don't shoot the messenger. :(

This anomaly is not a game breaker for me and is only visible on one map (Lake Map), which I hardly fly. This mod is greatly appreciated and a must have for my Rof virtual world. :S!:
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#75 hq_Jorri

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 17:25

:S!: Just pulling your leg :) It's good to know there's something to what the Devs said but a shame that it ruins the chance for the mod being included.
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#76 O_Caldwell

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 17:43

No problems Jorri. :S!:

This mod and many of Fubar's mods reside in my Rof folder as must haves and as I have said
before, I greatly appreciate the time and effort put in by some members of the Rof
community to "fine tune" the Rof virtual world to one's own taste. :S!:

I have posted a picture below to show the issue in question.

Image
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#77 AnKor85

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 20:04

Thanks, that's really the issue devs told about.
It happens when multiple textures are combined into single bigger texture (called "texture atlas") - this is common performance optimization, allowing to draw more objects in a single batch. The problem with anisotropic filtering when applied to texture atlas is that GPU doesn't know where tile boundaries are and texture smoothing causes color bleeding from adjacent tiles. What is worst here is that tiles adjacent in the atlas often are not adjacent on the landscape.
In simpler words - what you see as lines on the water are parts of the ground texture that bled through the edge because of texture smoothing.

As far as I know there is no straightforward solution to this issue.

Good news is that it isn't noticeable most of the time on ground textures because all of them are similar (fields, fields, fields), bad news – it is still there, so it is only a matter of time until it will be noticed (perhaps on city textures?). That's why I think devs won't implement it.

However, while there are no general solution for the problem, we have some luck and water tiles issue found by O_Caldwell is easily fixed.
Updated version of the mod is here: Attached File  Ground - No Shimmering.zip   7.5KB   127 downloads
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#78 Panthercules

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 20:09

Cool - thanks for the update - will give it a try later today if I get time
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#79 Panthercules

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:12

Hey Ankor - I'm not sure if this has anything to do with this mod or if it's maybe one of the other texture mods I'm playing around with or something else, but when I was running a test with your road blur and your anti-shimmering mods installed (along with Laser's landscape textures and some extra noise stuff) I happened to nose my Albatros over on a forced landing in a field, and saw this weird anomaly when I was lying upside down:

Image

Never seen this before and haven't been able to replicate it - does it look like anything that any of this texture mod stuff might lead to?
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#80 O_WolfPac

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:31

You do not have to have mods to see this Panthercules , i dont run mods and see it alot in multiplayer as i dont land very smoothly :P

Its new i think it arrived with 29 or 28 but i may be wrong

Basically its the basement of the map ,the green wall is the height @ edge of the tile card
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