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Wings Ripping Off Much Easier?


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#1 Hellshade

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:08

Ever since the last patch it seems like it usually only takes a few rounds to weaken the wings of an opponent so that they either fall off immediately or the moment they put a little extra pressure on them from say a quick turn or steep dive.

I have been playing a little bit of PWCG lately - (which is excellent by the way, so thanks Pat) and again and again it usually (not always) only seems to take a few rounds to seperate the wings from the fuselage. Here's a 3 minute video capture of a recent PWCG mission where my flight of Albs came across some Allied two seaters. I down 4 two seaters in short order. I don't remember the fights being that quick before. Any else notice this or am I just getting extremely lucky with my shots?


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#2 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:33

the wings were made more fragile with update 1.026
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#3 Browning

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:21

I have only seen one kill by fire since the flame changes as well. I think it's at least only one in several hundreds of kills that go down in flames.
I know it should be tough to ignite planes, but I'm not sure it should be so exceptionally rare.
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#4 thenorm

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:48

What sorts of missions you flying? The more gas they carry, the less likely a fire is.
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#5 CAFulcrum

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:52

It's a basic flaw in the DM. The wing hitboxes consist of a series of panels which degrade from hits uniformly over its surface. With increased rates of fire in the recent patch this means it's become very easy to critically damage these hitboxes because they are large and therefore tend to soak up a lot of bullets. No matter where the bullets hit, they count against the integrity of the wing panel, whereas in reality most of the bullets would pass through harmlessly, and only cause damage if one of them happened to hit a main spar. The f2b has huge wings so naturally they come off very easily (theSE5a also suffers from this problem).

This is one of the biggest immersion killers for me, it's really taken a lot of fun out of the game because I can't believe it was that simple to shoot down planes like this, no one a the time seems to talk about sawing off wings, rather they stress the importance of shooting into the engine/cockpit.
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#6 Abe_Froman

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 06:54

I saw a previous post about this, though I can't find it now, but for what it's worth I remember that someone referred the poster to the recent 1.029 change log which states:

Change list of version 1.029

2. Collision system was improved; collision check is more precise now
1.029 is ready
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#7 Browning

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:00

What sorts of missions you flying? The more gas they carry, the less likely a fire is.

All sorts, including plenty of instant action multilayer where the fuel load is usually below 20%.
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#8 Finkeren

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:44

the wings were made more fragile with update 1.026

Not true.
The volume of fire from MGs significanly increased due to the more realistic modeling of individual gun types and synchronisation gears - leading to quicker kills. At the same time dispersion was greatly increased, making precise shooting next to impossible (as it should be) thus giving us fewer "flamers" and more kills through structural failure.
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#9 startrekmike

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 08:40

I don't know about anyone else but I find that I have little trouble getting flamers, I mean, it does not happen all the time but I notice that as my gunnery improves, so does the likelihood that I set them on fire.

The wings on some planes do seem a bit weak to me, but I don't honestly know all the facts and figures so I can't really back up anything I could say.
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#10 wiseblood

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 08:44

I don't find it particularly uncommon. Latest fight I have a track for (dolphin vs d.viii's for screenshots) today shows 3 out of 7 kills as flamers, 3 pilot kills, one structural. D.VIII's set to something like 40 or 60% fuel. Really my only observation from my gut feeling since the 1.026 update in this regard is that for some reason it always seems the rotary engine planes go up in flames a lot faster than the inlines, but I don't know if that's really the case. And certainly if you are fighting some of the weaker constructed planes like the N.11 or something then yeah, you'll see more wings come off.
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#11 piecost

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:09

have found a relevant passage from a presentation given by a top British aircraft designer [designer of the Armstrong Whitworth Siskin] soon after the war.

"THE AERONAUTICAL JOURNAL February, 1921

PROCEEDINGS, FIFTH MEETING, 57th SESSION, Major F. M. Green delivered the following lecture

DEVELOPMENT OF THE FIGHTING AEROPLANE.

Ability to Withstand Damage.

The structure of the aeroplane itself is a large target in comparison with the pilot and the vital parts of the engine. It will be a big advantage if the aeroplane is so designed that it is likely to lose little of its structural strength when hit by the bullets of the enemy. Wooden spars are generally of such a section that many bullet holes are unlikely to cause sufficient damage to make failure in the air likely. There is always the possibility that a wire or the attachment of a wire will be shot away, and it certainly seems a requirement of the modern aeroplane that the structure of the aeroplane should not depend upon any single wire or attachment. Duplicating a wire by means of another wire alongside is apt to be dangerous as one bullet is likely to destroy both wires. The lecturer knows of one case in which an aeroplane partly collapsed when a bullet hit the point of attachment of two wires which left the plane at different angles. The ideal arrangement, therefore, is to make a structure which is braced by two or more independent systems."
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#12 thedudeWG

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 11:11

Regarding flamed engines, I've wanted to ask about this as well. I'm in my 4th month of my career (flying N17's and Spad VII's) and never had an engine catch fire, just oil splatter. And, until today, never lit anyone up. My 37th kill finally caught fire, a DIII. Is it because I've been flying with and against low-horsepower, early-war planes? I'm a fairly accurate shot, even though I'm only sporting a single vickers. I usually end up killing the pilot or his prop just stops turning.
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#13 Hellshade

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 13:42

It's a basic flaw in the DM. The wing hitboxes consist of a series of panels which degrade from hits uniformly over its surface. With increased rates of fire in the recent patch this means it's become very easy to critically damage these hitboxes because they are large and therefore tend to soak up a lot of bullets. No matter where the bullets hit, they count against the integrity of the wing panel, whereas in reality most of the bullets would pass through harmlessly, and only cause damage if one of them happened to hit a main spar. The f2b has huge wings so naturally they come off very easily (theSE5a also suffers from this problem).

This is one of the biggest immersion killers for me, it's really taken a lot of fun out of the game because I can't believe it was that simple to shoot down planes like this, no one a the time seems to talk about sawing off wings, rather they stress the importance of shooting into the engine/cockpit.

That would seem to explain my experience, except for me personally, I never noticed them coming off so easily until right after the last patch. They used to take a lot more hits before succumbing to my fire making the dogfights last longer and more intense. Someone else has pointed to a change in the patch notes, others the rate of fire of the machine guns. It could be any of it I suppose. I just hope they eventually change it back. PWCG was more exciting when I couldn't bring down 4 planes with just a few dozen rounds of ammo.
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#14 gavagai

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 14:49

the wings were made more fragile with update 1.026

Not true.
The volume of fire from MGs significanly increased due to the more realistic modeling of individual gun types and synchronisation gears - leading to quicker kills. At the same time dispersion was greatly increased, making precise shooting next to impossible (as it should be) thus giving us fewer "flamers" and more kills through structural failure.

^^This.

It's also an open question whether aircraft machine guns were set to fire at the maximum rate. Pilots were also very concerned about preventing stoppages, and would gladly have given up 100 rounds/minute if it meant increased reliability. After all, Rise of Flight does not simulate hard jams.
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#15 MPcdn

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 15:25

I am not sure why it happens more but it would be nice to see some middle ground so we can go back to longer fights and more fun.
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#16 Hellshade

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 15:57

I am not sure why it happens more but it would be nice to see some middle ground so we can go back to longer fights and more fun.

I couldn't agree more.

However if indeed it does have to do with the increased rate of fire for the machine guns, as has been suggested, I wonder if it is possible to lower the rate of fire through some kind of mod?

Arguments of what is most historically accurate aside…longer fights in the sim before tended to be about being a skilled enough pilot to get "into firing position" enough times coupled with several bouts of accurate shooting (presuming one did not just kill the pilot or disable the engine with some well placed shots) in order to cause structural failure. So it was a sort of "dance" between you and your opponent, often with each side scoring some hits and heightening the tension of the fight. Now, more often than not it is who can get in one or two solid bursts against the wings - even with a couple of simple fly bys as illustrated in the video above - in order to win the day.

Whatever the reason, the thrill of combat is not what it once was. I hope someone - Dev or Modder - comes up with a way to return us to that level of skill and thrill.
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#17 DidNotFinish

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 16:01

In my own experiences, the most common way I've been downing aircraft is by killing the pilot. I always aim directly below the middle of the upper wing. That way, I'll either kill the pilot or the engine. I am flying a Nieuport 11 career right now and with my single machine gun, I haven't found it to be extremely easy to break wings (other than my own). Since the latest patch, I may have shot two planes down in flames.
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#18 BraveSirRobin

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 16:26

the wings were made more fragile with update 1.026

Not true.
The volume of fire from MGs significanly increased due to the more realistic modeling of individual gun types and synchronisation gears - leading to quicker kills. At the same time dispersion was greatly increased, making precise shooting next to impossible (as it should be) thus giving us fewer "flamers" and more kills through structural failure.

No, it's definitely true. They changed the damage model at the same time they changed the rate of fire and dispersion. My accuracy numbers have not changed since 1.026, but the number of fire kills has dropped dramatically and the wings are obviously more fragile.
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#19 kcole4001

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 16:38

the wings were made more fragile with update 1.026

Not true.
The volume of fire from MGs significanly increased due to the more realistic modeling of individual gun types and synchronisation gears - leading to quicker kills. At the same time dispersion was greatly increased, making precise shooting next to impossible (as it should be) thus giving us fewer "flamers" and more kills through structural failure.

^^This.

It's also an open question whether aircraft machine guns were set to fire at the maximum rate. Pilots were also very concerned about preventing stoppages, and would gladly have given up 100 rounds/minute if it meant increased reliability. After all, Rise of Flight does not simulate hard jams.

Big +1
In all the material I've read this is one of the biggest pilot concerns: semi-permanent stoppages (not repairable while airborne).
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#20 catobird

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 18:22

I just noticed this phenomenum for the first time today. It is not the increased bullet frequency because I have been playing the game everyday since the new MG model was introduced.
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#21 MPcdn

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 19:43

I am not sure why it happens more but it would be nice to see some middle ground so we can go back to longer fights and more fun.

I couldn't agree more.

However if indeed it does have to do with the increased rate of fire for the machine guns, as has been suggested, I wonder if it is possible to lower the rate of fire through some kind of mod?

Arguments of what is most historically accurate aside…longer fights in the sim before tended to be about being a skilled enough pilot to get "into firing position" enough times coupled with several bouts of accurate shooting (presuming one did not just kill the pilot or disable the engine with some well placed shots) in order to cause structural failure. So it was a sort of "dance" between you and your opponent, often with each side scoring some hits and heightening the tension of the fight. Now, more often than not it is who can get in one or two solid bursts against the wings - even with a couple of simple fly bys as illustrated in the video above - in order to win the day.

Whatever the reason, the thrill of combat is not what it once was. I hope someone - Dev or Modder - comes up with a way to return us to that level of skill and thrill.


I know I started this thought but my new friend here has stated it far better than I did. I hope someone in the Dev can find a way to bring the dance back.
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#22 Gadfly21

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 19:48

The problem is that the entire wing surface is used to calculate damage. You can take the guns in an Re.8 and see that you will shoot off your wing with the same number of rounds whether or not your bullets penetrate a spar, or graze off the trailing edge.

In a perfect world, the wing hit-box would be in the shape of the main spar (a long, thin rectangle). A hit to the spar would weaken the wing considerably, or cause it to fall off, but hits anywhere else simply trigger the "tearing fabric" sound effect and torn fabric visuals.

However, this is apparently too complicated to code or run on a PC, though I believe Il-2 used spars in its DM. The assumption most often cited is that most kills come from the rear, but often this isn't true, and many kills in turn fight come from above (relative to the target). In the former case, a hit to the wing means a hit to the spar, but in the latter case, a hit to the wing means 95% of your shots should be hitting non-critical structure and poking holes in canvass harmlessly. However, RoF doesn't care and the same three critical hits from behind will destroy a set of wings from the top, making these types of kills disproportionately easy.

If it is true that making a spar hitbox is impossible, then the wings should just be made stronger. De-winging an opponent seems to happen too often.


have found a relevant passage from a presentation given by a top British aircraft designer [designer of the Armstrong Whitworth Siskin] soon after the war.

"THE AERONAUTICAL JOURNAL February, 1921

PROCEEDINGS, FIFTH MEETING, 57th SESSION, Major F. M. Green delivered the following lecture

DEVELOPMENT OF THE FIGHTING AEROPLANE.

Ability to Withstand Damage.

The structure of the aeroplane itself is a large target in comparison with the pilot and the vital parts of the engine. It will be a big advantage if the aeroplane is so designed that it is likely to lose little of its structural strength when hit by the bullets of the enemy. Wooden spars are generally of such a section that many bullet holes are unlikely to cause sufficient damage to make failure in the air likely. There is always the possibility that a wire or the attachment of a wire will be shot away, and it certainly seems a requirement of the modern aeroplane that the structure of the aeroplane should not depend upon any single wire or attachment. Duplicating a wire by means of another wire alongside is apt to be dangerous as one bullet is likely to destroy both wires. The lecturer knows of one case in which an aeroplane partly collapsed when a bullet hit the point of attachment of two wires which left the plane at different angles. The ideal arrangement, therefore, is to make a structure which is braced by two or more independent systems."

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#23 Hellshade

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 21:00

I'm neither a Dev nor a modder, so my expertise on this subject is extremely limited and therefore I'll leave the proper conclusions for what is actually causing this new phenomenom of easily shredded wings to my betters. However at least one simple observation leads me to believe a couple of things would seem likely to be true, though I wouldn't say they absolutely are.

Observation: The DM didn't always behave this way and this is a relatively recent change. Wings appeared to take more damage in the past before completely ripping off.

That leads me to believe the following are likely to be true.

#1. It is in fact possible to code the DM to react with wings more tolerant of taking damage.

#2. It isn't necessarily new code that must be written, but perhaps recent code that could be undone.

If #2 turns out to be true, depending on what the "ripple effects" of undoing that code might be are (if any), it could potentially be a comparatively easy change to make as opposed to creating all new code to add to what is already there now.

None of that means that it will be done or even if it's the direction that 777 studios wishes to take their sim. It merely surmises that it should be possible to do and potentially not as expensive or time consuming to implement if indeed removing or reverting that code that caused this new phenonemom can indeed bring things back to the way they were.

I hope it somehow gets reverted back or a mod introduced that has that same effect. I was in the middle of a thoroughly enjoyable Pat Wilsons Campaign Generator Campaign and this recent alteration to the DM or perhaps as was noted - the collision detection - has dialed down the thrill to less than white knuckle levels.
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#24 pcpilot

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 21:41

Hellshade, I also like Pat Wilson's campaign, but unfortunately it doesnt work anymore for me
since the last update - it keeps crashing half way into sorties. Very sad - really enjoyed it.

About Albatros D.V wings, and why I feel my favourite craft is treated like a dirt bag:

The weakness of the D.III and D.V lower wings lay in the construction with only one main spar,
which got connected with the upper wing by a V-strut (same as the Nieuport sesquiplanes).
The constructors of those days did not yet know anything much about "fluttering effects".
This could happen in steep (and thereby fast) dives: the wing began to warp around the V-strut
fixation point and could break at some point.

But: a recommendation to the pilots read, that they should "not dive steeply for more than 1000
Meter (ca. 3000 feet), to avoid the effect and damage.
This seems to show me a picture of a tougher Albatros than the D.III and D.V in "Rise of Flight".
I have read nowhere, that wings came off from some tight turns. Tight turns were not the problem
with the sesquiplane constructions. I read at only one point (by F.K.Kurt Jentsch), how an Albatros
D.V shed it's complete wings. That was after a longer and fast dive of the Staffelführer, who was
going to attack a SPAD. The dive went alright, but whe he caught the craft up - too hard - the
wing structures broke apart, and the craft fell to earth. We can assume, that we would have found
more on this, if it had happened more often.

The D.V was often field modified with metal rods connecting the V-strut with the leading edge spar.
On the Albatros D.Va these stabilisers were standard parts of the factory construction.
"Rise of Flight" only gave us the Albatros D.Va so far - so why not the improved stability?

The Albatros D.V was not regarded by Manfred von Richthofen as "a big improvement over the D.III" -
but this must not be read wrongly as "no improvement" - "not a big improvement" means, that there
were small improvements.
Arthur Gould Lee reported in his great book "No Parachute!", that the RNAS-boys all hoped to receive
the Sopwith Camel soon. They found their Sopwith Triplanes inferiour to the Albatros D.V.
Inferiour - a great fighter like the Sopwith Triplane!

I cannot understand, why the Albatros D.III and D.V were made worse in performance than they really
seem to have been - and then got even worsened more with the last update.
The D.V should be 15 km/h faster than it is in RoF - a lot in WW1!
Lee wrote about his attempt to attack Albatros scouts with their Camels. He wrote, the Camel with
it's thin wing profile was cutting through the air like a knife; he found his diving attempt
on the Albatros very fast. But he also found, that the Albatros could also dive fast - and they
dived faster and off and away - he couldn't get at them!

In "Rise of flight", I cannot escape a Sopwith Camel - whatever I may try; I can only stay and fight.
And that brings me to a final conclusion which I hope is not correct, as it would be very unprofessional
for the makers of air combat sims:
Could it be that the Albatros had to be worsened, to make the Camel look better in fights?
That the "Sacred Camel" should not loose so many fights against Albatros scouts?

Please convince me, that these are only "bad thoughts".
You can do that by giving the Albatros the correct top speed of 185 km/h in a horizontal flight;
and the stability to allow the Albatros D.V to be able to dive away from a Camel fast enough,
so that it has a chance to escape.

I would not write so much, if I didn't like the sim, you know?
And I am a total Albatros lover - I hardly ever fly any other type.
I am aware that I am flying an out-of-date model with the D.Va.
I would still do it! It's love.
But please - give me an Albatros D.V, in which I have the chances the real life pilots had.

And please read "No Parachute!" - it is a great book!
If you have read it - read it again; it's worth it.
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#25 gavagai

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 23:49

pcpilot, the D.Va airspeed should be 188km/h at 1km. See my post about German scouts in the flight models and feedback forum.
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#26 Gadfly21

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 05:58

The funny thing about the Alb is that it's practically impossible to shed the wings in dive, but that's a topic for another debate.

This thread is about DM with regards to gunnery, and it concerns all aircraft, not just the Albatros.
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#27 Pirato

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 14:28

I have the impression that the Wings especially from the Albatros D3 come off much easier lately. Even after the introduction of the higher firing rate it wasn't that bad. But now I barely got damage on the wings and even a moderate pulled Turn rips them off. Just a short burst to the wings seems enough to bring me down. Flying close and aim proper is not rewarded anymore,infact it seems better to just open fire from further away hoping to damage the Wings. Must be something with the newest patch.
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Dann gibt's Heulen und Zähne klammern, für das ganze Lumpenpack.
Dann ist Schluss mit "Tischlein deck' dich", da gibt's "Knüppel aus dem Sack"!


#28 P/O_Plum

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 14:48

I've been having a streak of wing failures in my S.E.5a; I thought I was doing something wrong.

Ron
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#29 Hellshade

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 15:09

I have the impression that the Wings especially from the Albatros D3 come off much easier lately. Even after the introduction of the higher firing rate it wasn't that bad. But now I barely got damage on the wings and even a moderate pulled Turn rips them off. Just a short burst to the wings seems enough to bring me down. Flying close and aim proper is not rewarded anymore,infact it seems better to just open fire from further away hoping to damage the Wings. Must be something with the newest patch.

Exactly my experience as well, sir. Often I can just put a few rounds into the wings and if my opponent makes even a moderately sharp turn, his wings just disintegrate. The same happens to me if I am hit.
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#30 MPcdn

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 15:32

If there is a Dev reading this can they please say if it is a problem they know about and are going to fix.

Thank you
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#31 LukeFF

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 21:44

Guys, nothing has changed with the structural integrity of the wings. What you're seeing is the effect of the increased rate of fire.
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#32 Pirato

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 23:08

Something has been changed,be it intended or not. I never have seen the wings come off so easy during moderatly pulled turns even if there was some damage to them. Lately it seems that only a few Bullets are enough to weaken the wings and they snap off when they get stressed a bit.

In case of the Albatros D.III my impression is that the wings come off faster than in any other plane I have flown lately,although on the other planes the wings rip off faster then before aswell.
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Dann gibt's Heulen und Zähne klammern, für das ganze Lumpenpack.
Dann ist Schluss mit "Tischlein deck' dich", da gibt's "Knüppel aus dem Sack"!


#33 Delta_Ranger74

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 23:44

Something has been changed,be it intended or not. I never have seen the wings come off so easy during moderatly pulled turns even if there was some damage to them. Lately it seems that only a few Bullets are enough to weaken the wings and they snap off when they get stressed a bit.

In case of the Albatros D.III my impression is that the wings come off faster than in any other plane I have flown lately,although on the other planes the wings rip off faster then before aswell.

Indeed! It seems almost as though the structural integrity of the wings has not been changed, rather the way bullets effect the wings strength! :lol:
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#34 gavagai

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:03

I normally dismiss these kinds of threads, but with many people expressing the same observation, perhaps there is something to it this time?
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#35 SC-Sp00k

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:11

Please do not go seeking changes to dispersion. In my opinion that was the single best decision these guys have made to the game. The long range sniper shoot or shotgun on steroids approach previously was a nightmare.
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#36 gavagai

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:33

Please do not go seeking changes to dispersion. In my opinion that was the single best decision these guys have made to the game. The long range sniper shoot or shotgun on steroids approach previously was a nightmare.

You are absolutely right, but this issue might have to do with the rate of fire, not dispersion.
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#37 Tiger27

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:50

Something has been changed,be it intended or not. I never have seen the wings come off so easy during moderatly pulled turns even if there was some damage to them. Lately it seems that only a few Bullets are enough to weaken the wings and they snap off when they get stressed a bit.

In case of the Albatros D.III my impression is that the wings come off faster than in any other plane I have flown lately,although on the other planes the wings rip off faster then before aswell.


Yeah the other plane I notice wings ripping off a lot is the Sopwith Tripe, the increased rate of fire patch was prior to this occurring, since the last patch I have lost more wings than in all my previous flying, it is usually a short while after an attack that I make a sharp turn and away go the wings.

III/JG11_Tiger
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#38 hq_Jorri

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:51

It's two things:

- Increased rate of fire
- Increased dispersion, meaning more hits on the wings if you aim at man/metal.
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#39 Tiger27

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:56

It's two things:

- Increased rate of fire
- Increased dispersion, meaning more hits on the wings if you aim at man/metal.

This is may or may not be the cause of what we are seeing, my wings are coming off from a quick slashing attack and the incidence of this has increased since the last patch, not the patch that increased rate of fire and dispersion, it is very noticeable.
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#40 Pimpin

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:08

Well, much as I hate my wings ripping off easily, wouldn't it be the case that getting hit at all in a wooden/dope aircraft is going to cause serious issues, especially if some of those bullets or flak goes through the wing spar or any other structural area?
The idea is not to get hit at all.
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