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QF 1 pounder / Maxim Flak measurements/dimensions


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#1 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 14:59

Hi, I was hoping somebody could help me with providing detailed information regarding the size/length of the mount the cannon and possibly more details.

One of them is in the Imperial War Museum, another is part of the Wehrtechnische Studiensammlung Koblenz.


http://en.wikipedia....pounder_pom-pom" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia....pounder_pom-pom
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#2 Gunsmith86

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 18:07

I will post everything i can find.

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#3 Gunsmith86

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 20:12

R.A.F. F.E.2B with Vickers 1 Pdr Mk III 37mm gun
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#4 Gunsmith86

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 22:02

The german full automatic machine cannon built by DWM under Maxim licence, firing a cartridge of 37mm x 101 because of this the rate of fire was slower 250 rpm its range is 7500 ft; elevation +80/360 degr. Muzzle Velocity 1620 ft/sec.



1. German 3,7 cm Masch. K. - 37 mm Maxim Automatic cannon;
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The 37 mm Maxim Pom Pom in Pre WWI German Navy service was called the 3,7 cm Masch. K. ( 3.7 cm Machine Cannon) Taken fron data plate on gun. Almost all were transfered to the German Army in WW I and then called the 3,7 cm M. FLAK (3.7 cm Maxim Flak) Some time between 1918 and 1935 the Name was changed to 3,7 cm Flak M 14 - Taken from German manual Flakartillerie Waffen, Gerate, Kreftfahrzeuge. Dated 1 Mai 1935 L.Dv.425 It shows the weapon still in stock but mounted on a truck in 1934. At the same time the Flak 18 was being issued. The WW I pedestle mount and drum was factory produced at Krupp. The Pom Pom was very useful when placed directly behind the front lines where British aircraft were trench straffing. Field reports state that in these location the British aircraft lossed were excessive - and reports were made of finding firing platforms where there were piles of fired 37 mm cases 8 feet tall.

When used by the army as a flak unit it was mounted on a revolving pedestle with seats and a large drum magazine holding a long 100 round cloth belt. It took 2 men to place the Drum. The photo is probably a test or early prototype because the production guns had a metal rod stay attached from the drum to the barrel, and another to the rear of the breech. This was because the drums enertia bent everything when the gun was traversed quickly. Vibration was bad and the mount had to besndbsgged down. Accuracy was not possible but a a lot of ammo was in the air at the same time. It fired the standard 37 x 95R Hotchkiss round using a special tracer shell developed for the 3,7 Sokel Flak.

2. German 3,7 cm Rev. K. (Hotchkiss) - 37 mm Hotchkiss Revolving cannon;
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The 37 mm Hotchkiss RC were transfered to the German Army by the navy in WW I. Almost all mounts were locally made as expedient Flak guns. They normally used a 5 round feed tray but longer 10 round trays were also made. A lot of posts and wagon wheels were used. It was very difficut to use and not very effective. These guns were replaced by the Maxim as soon as possible. The individual gun barrels were then used by Krupp to make 3,7 cm trench guns for the German army. It fired the standard 37 x 95R Hotchkiss round with Black powder common shell, then later used a special tracer shell originally developed for the 3,7 Sokel Flak.

3. 3,7 cm S. Flak L14.5 (Krupp)
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The 3,7cm Krupp Luftschiff K. was developed by Krupp for the German Zepplin fleet but canceled when the British RFC began issuing the Pomeroy Tracer ammunition. The finished guns were transfered to the German Army who developed a new sokel mount and renamed it the 3,7 cm S. Flak L14.5 - taken from the manual 3,7 cm S. Flak L14.5 Essen 1917 1 Mai 1917 No. D1000.17. It fired a special tracer shell from a ten round magazine. The gun used a more powerful 37 x 101SR cartridge. This projectile was finally issued for all three AA guns, even though it had to be crimped in 3/16 of an inch higher in the 37 x 94 mm Hotchkiss case. It was painted Dark green and traced a bright green. An incendiary type with a black powder component was produced and painted black with wide dark green stripes. Explosive shell was not issued for Flak use in 3,7 cm. This gun wa being consided as an tank gun in 1918. I believe that several existing APT shells with copper tip but matching the tracer shell in shape and loading were the experimental type for this tank gun. A German report states that the matching of AP capability and tracer was not working out.
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#5 Gunsmith86

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 23:41

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard64pics/8110354237/sizes/k/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard64pics/8110342443/sizes/k/in/photostream/

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#6 Gunsmith86

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:46

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=160024

www.kaisersbunker.com/cc/cc18.htm

http://www.google.de/imgres?hl=de&client=firefox-a&hs=DLa&sa=X&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&biw=1920&bih=913&tbm=isch&tbnid=1pRLqnQPz54nrM:&imgrefurl=http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyarmaments/machineguns/armpompom.htm&docid=YmY1NMZCjdMdwM&imgurl=http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images/armpompom.jpg&w=489&h=396&ei=s1HtUNfjHMXIsgbO3oGADg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=459&vpy=127&dur=2619&hovh=202&hovw=250&tx=149&ty=82&sig=100784444325376272479&page=1&tbnh=147&tbnw=182&start=0&ndsp=49&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0,i:97


Australian soldiers examine a captured German Pom-Pom gun.
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#7 Gunsmith86

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:09

http://svsm.org/gallery/37mm_maxim_flak14


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#8 Gunsmith86

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 18:29

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/37-40mm.htm

http://www.google.de/imgres?start=188&hl=de&client=firefox-a&hs=2eg&sa=X&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&biw=1920&bih=913&tbm=isch&tbnid=eW87rtsySh7S7M:&imgrefurl=http://wwimodeller.co.nz/walkaround-qf-1pdr-mk-i-pom-pom-gun/&docid=cLXPsbd0fhB3YM&imgurl=http://wwimodeller.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/QF1Pdr4.jpg&w=1024&h=768&ei=mLDtUIm2PMXGswb2mIGoBg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=381&vpy=103&dur=7414&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=98&ty=117&sig=100784444325376272479&page=4&tbnh=143&tbnw=179&ndsp=64&ved=1t:429,r:31,s:200,i:97

The Maxim Gun - No 4. (Engineering, volume 65) detailed information regarding the size/length
http://www.google.de/imgres?hl=de&client=firefox-a&hs=ZM1&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&biw=1920&bih=913&tbm=isch&tbnid=XirSDdhjww-WSM:&imgrefurl=http://www.victorianshipmodels.com/autoMG/Maxim/maximgun4.html&docid=CsOQiqNGFqcuqM&imgurl=http://www.victorianshipmodels.com/autoMG/Maxim/Resources/mx1898fig46new.jpeg&w=402&h=482&ei=IrHtUN32CoXFswa-0ICwBw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1670&vpy=25&dur=4321&hovh=246&hovw=205&tx=79&ty=121&sig=100784444325376272479&page=2&tbnh=144&tbnw=128&start=45&ndsp=55&ved=1t:429,r:63,s:0,i:279


Some other info:
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1914/1914%20-%201153.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1914/1914%20-%201154.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1914/1914%20-%201155.html
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#9 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 14:05

Hi, thanks for all the work. I am primarily looking for the size/length of the specific mounts though as wiki lists length of the barrel and the entire gun :/

I contacted the IWM and the one in Koblenz via email but I am not very optimistic that they will help me, on the other hand with the size of the gun known and lots of pictures for reference showing soldiers next to the gun I guess it should be fairly possible to adjust the proportions by eye.
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#10 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 13:00

Haven't gotten a reply yet from the museums so I am just going to adjust the proportions via photos and guesstimation.
Another problem I have is the lack of pictures for the British army mounts and belt feeds, all the ones above seem to be naval ones.

Of course I could just use the German mount and make a different skin for it for the British but that would be a bit of a hack :roll:


P.S. Razneff collected complete measurements of the 3,7 cm S. Flak L14.5 (Krupp) a few months ago so that one is covered.
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#11 Gunsmith86

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 14:56

Surce:
Antiaircraft Artillery from Ian V. Hogg page 30
Britain had one 4-inch and four 3-inch AA guns in service; it also had a small stock of Maxim one-pounder Pom-Pom guns, and so, as a first step, these were assembled either on pedestals in dockyard areas or on simple twowheeled field carriages for issue to the army in Flanders



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One of the most common solutions to the anti-aircraft problem was to simply cobble together some sort of rotating stage. (these were made from railway sleepers, timber and cartwheels)
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#12 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 14:58

Cool, thanks :) Seems like would limit their ability to quickly engage planes on all 360° both vertically and horizontally though.
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#13 Gunsmith86

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 23:29

Yes it is
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#14 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 14:34

The last ones look especially interesting, not sure if I should just improve a new mount for the 1 pounder though?
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#15 Gunsmith86

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 19:29

The last two are used for the 3 and 4 inch AA guns.

the Maxim ones at home defens:
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#16 Gunsmith86

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:41

NOTES ON ANTI-AIRCRAFT GUNS:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/65538633/notesonantiaircr00armyiala.pdf

-The defence of London, 1915-1918; (1923)
http://archive.org/download/defenceoflondon100rawluoft/defenceoflondon100rawluoft.pdf

-Air Warfare and Air Base Defense
http://archive.org/download/AirWarfareAndAirBaseDefense/airwarfareandairbaseairdefense.pdf
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#17 Sylvis

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:50

Perhaps a little digression, but relevant to the design.
Am I wrong if I take it the muzzle and cooler is brass wile the chamber and mount is made out of steel? I would imagine, even with the cooler, after a wile of use the two different metals would expand with different result rendering damage to the joints and screws. Still this was a widely used design so it must be a workaround in the design. Anyone know more about this?
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#18 Gunsmith86

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 13:11

Perhaps a little digression, but relevant to the design.
Am I wrong if I take it the muzzle and cooler is brass wile the chamber and mount is made out of steel?

Right

I would imagine, even with the cooler, after a wile of use the two different metals would expand with different result rendering damage to the joints and screws. Still this was a widely used design so it must be a workaround in the design. Anyone know more about this?

No the expand is to small to do any damege.


The german copie is completly made of steel.
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#19 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 16:26

The german copie is completly made of steel.

I was going to paint the entire gun and barrel Feldgrau, do you think the gun itself was left in natural metal?
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#20 Gunsmith86

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 17:33

The german copie is completly made of steel.

I was going to paint the entire gun and barrel Feldgrau, do you think the gun itself was left in natural metal?

No they will be completly painted with Feldgrau.
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#21 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 18:44

Mkay :) This is a really useful picture, do you happen to come across one that shows the other side from a good angle? a nice angle on the front and rear part would also be awesome:

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#22 Waxworks

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 19:00

Would you consider making a 6 inch BL gun?

It is just one of the naval 6 inch guns we have already, except mounted on a field carriage. While the Germans have their five-nines, only the smaller Entente field pieces are available.
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#23 Bf-110

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 20:07

Interesting information.
BTW,for what were those guns used before WWI?
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#24 Gunsmith86

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 20:40

First killing british troops at Boer War.

later weapon against faster small ships and defense of forts.
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#25 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:24

Would you consider making a 6 inch BL gun?

It is just one of the naval 6 inch guns we have already, except mounted on a field carriage. While the Germans have their five-nines, only the smaller Entente field pieces are available.

I want to finish this one first before I commit to anything else, sorry.
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#26 BillyKid

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:59

Imperator, If you are still working on this, I haven't seen anyone point you towards this;
http://www.lexpev.nl...q.f.gun1902.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.lexpev.nl...nloads/handbook … un1902.pdf
"Handbook of the 1-PR. Q.F. Gun (Mounted on Field Carriage)" War Office, UK, 1902

also attaching profile drawings of the MK1 and MK2 carriage. One of them has a dimension scale on it. and a rear view of an existing carriage for the detail as well as the opposite side from the belt feed from Mkay's picture

Attached Files


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#27 Avimimus

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 22:27

If there is anything here that you need - I can go take photos:
http://www.warmuseum...eum-collection/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.warmuseum...military-histor … ollection/

Btw. Is this it?
http://collections.c...uery.php&lang=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://collections.c...ization.ca/publ … php&lang=0
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#28 Gunsmith86

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 23:19

Btw. Is this it?
http://collections.c...uery.php&lang=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://collections.c...ization.ca/publ … php&lang=0

Yes thats the Maxim 37mm gun.
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#29 Waxworks

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:11

Congratulations seem to be in order here, well done! Is this the first third party model to have made it into the game?
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#30 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 21:40

Thanks, nice of you to notice :)

I am not entirely sure, I believe pretty much all graphical work is more or less outsourced so I am not sure where you can draw a line. But I am quite happy :)


My plans for the next models will be a simple modification of the M-Flak with the big ammo drum, then the 1 pounder. However I am still not entirely sure how the latter should actually be mounted etc. Seems rather vague and I am not sure the naval mount would be apropriate for france. Perhaps it could be used on some of the ships in the channel, not sure.
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#31 redcoat22

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:59

Can someone post a picture of this new model? I have not seen one in game. Good work man!
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#32 Gunsmith86

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 19:39

here a view picturse of the QF 1 pounder used by Belgium, Great Britain and France

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#33 FREDFREDBURGER

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 19:48

http://www.victorian.../maximgun4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.victorian...models.com/auto … mgun4.html
This link has a good chunk of info.
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#34 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 14:05

Hi guys, built a new PC and 3ds max is finally working again :)Currently working on the M-Flak with large ammo drum which shouldn't take too long, then I will probably move on to the 1 pounder. Thanks for the pictures Gunsmith86, any chance you can capture the bottom two in better quality? They are quite fuzzy and vague.

Found a pretty good picture showing the front:
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#35 SYN_Vander

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 14:13

Hi Imp,

When I was at Duxford this summer, I found a QF1 pounder (I think) in one of the hangers. There was also a picture there of a Drifter, armed with a QF 1 so I was naturally very interested. I made some pictures; I will upload here after I have found them.

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There also was a Thornycroft AAA truck!

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#36 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 14:35

Hey vander, originally I wanted to created the 37mm guns for FEOW, so the western front was my main focus.
Once I am done with those mounts I can quite easily make a naval version or one for trucks. If I am not mistaken we can actually "attach" guns to vehicles and ships? Not sure what needs to be done for that though, probably involves some hardcoding from the devs?
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#37 SYN_Vander

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 17:56

In fact, I already created a (simple) gun for the Drifters and yes, you can attach it to any ship or vehicle using an entry in the config file for that vehicle.
So if you have created a Q1 with "land" mounting we could simply copy that to another version with "naval" mounting and add it to any ship or vehicle.
Btw, we should also look into the bullet characteristics of the M-flak and Q1. Right now, the M-flak behaves as a simple machine gun?

Still looking for the photos…they are still on my SD card I think.

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#38 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 18:20

Right now, the M-flak behaves as a simple machine gun?
Yes, it fired solid tracer rounds only. The 1 pounder fired a mix of he and tracer rounds as far as I know, 37 x 94R mm 1 tracer, 5 explosive shells w/ impact fuse.

Question is if the fuse was sensitive enough to trigger on canvas or not. I believe there were special anti-aircraft fuses with extra low sensitivity, but they were not used on the 1 pounder - as far as I know.


So if you have created a Q1 with "land" mounting we could simply copy that to another version with "naval" mounting and add it to any ship or vehicle.

I think this should be pretty close to a naval mount, no idea though what colour it should be:
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I just deleted several lower parts of the land mount and removed the gunner seat.
This would also come close to a British naval mount I guess, except for the sighting system.
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#39 SYN_Vander

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 18:47

Pretty good! here are the pics. Maybe SYN_ Bandy has some more, he was also in Duxford at our annual 'Syndicate road trip' :)


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#40 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 18:53

They should suffice, thanks :) Very good thing the british and germans had the same kind of crack handle setup :D

Guess that round base cylinder at the bottom has to be taller on my naval version.


edit: crack is supposed to say crank :P
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