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Hansa Brandenburg & Lohner seaplanes?


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#1 Avimimus

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 18:17

I'm currently trying to verify a lot of unreliable online references.

The aircraft involved are:
Lohner L (armament, engine variants?)
Lohner T (armament, maximum speed?)
Hansa-Brandenburg K
Hansa-Brandenburg W.13 (bombload, any other information?)
Oeffag G-series (any info?)

(I already have some refs for the Lohner M & fighter seaplanes)

Thanks,
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#2 Avimimus

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 15:25

Okay, I guess not… :D

Does anyone at least know if the Hansa-Brandenburg K is actuall the W.13 or a development of the Hansa-Brandenburg FB?
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#3 Panthercules

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 15:34

sorry - I've ordered some new books on seaplanes but they haven't arrived yet (and I'm not sure how much info they might have on those particular variants), so I don't have any info I can help you with ATM.
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#4 dixieflyer

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 15:44

Avimimus,
I do not have the datafiles, but I do have the FMP book on A-H aircraft. I have a lot of work to do today, but if you can wait, I'll try to look these up for you. Sound ok? :)

Warren
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#5 Panthercules

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 15:48

Okay, I guess not… :D

Does anyone at least know if the Hansa-Brandenburg K is actuall the W.13 or a development of the Hansa-Brandenburg FB?


Only mention of the Hansa-Brandenburg K I found in what I already have was in the Windsock Datafile for the W.12, which states that the Type K was actually an unsuccessful prototype built in October 1916 for the Austro-Hungarian LFT (although it apparently influenced further development of a couple of other types, the Phönix C.1 anf UFAG C.1). I'm not sure if the "K" and the "Type K" were even the same plane, or if there might have been a different "K" model without the "Type" in front of it.
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#6 dixieflyer

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 17:10

Oooops! So sorry Avimimus, but my source book is on A-H ARMY a/c of WWI. :oops: No seaplane data there. Sorry friend.

Warren
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History is the lie we all agree upon.


#7 LWRonin

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 05:44

S! Avimimus,

Looking through my Windsocks - I have:

Windsock Datafile 055 - Brandenburg W.29+.pdf 38803 KB
Windsock Datafile 061 - Brandenburg W12+.pdf 16715 KB

If either or both would be any use to you I can post em or email em to you.
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#8 Avimimus

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 16:35

Thanks guys,

It is all right - I have the M, CC, W.12, W.29 all sorted out… The big issue is with the Lohner L/T/R (Hansa Brandenburg FB), the Lohner T, Oeffag G, and the Hansa-Brandenburg W.13 (Type K?)!

Okay, I have the following guesses:
– At the start of the war, most boats were two-seat Lohner E/M
– The smaller Lohner S was then developed (used as a trainer).
– An enlarged "L" Type (2-3 seats?) was developed as a multi-role airplane
– The L type may have then been developed into the three-seat Lohner "T" (with a more powerful engines and higher speed?)
– Meanwhile Hansa-Brandenburg produced six examples of the Lohner L under license (Hansa Brandenburg FB)
– Seeking better performance Hansa-Brandenburg then developed the completely new and more powerful W.13 (The W.13 may have also been referred to as the Hansa Brandenburg "Type K"? - Not to be confused with the K/L.14 prototype fighter).

This is further confused by the fact that most aircraft flew with an "L" painted on the side as part of their serial number.

The Lohner E/M were phased out of front-line combat first, followed by the L/T/FB, with the intention tod to eventually replace these with the W.13/K!

However, there is a lot of inference going into this! I could be wrong about one of these aircraft even existing… The oddest thing is that information is available on these types. A number of them remained in use post-war. A Lohner" L" actually survives to the present day! While a W.13 was taken apart and studied in the U.S. after the war (with detailed photographs taken during disassembly). It just appears that no one has written sufficiently on the subject in English!

So, yes, any information is most welcome… :D
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#9 Lieste

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 09:16

Brandenburg W13: (Heinkel design, license produced in AH)
2 crew 350hp Austro-Daimler.
Span 20.4m, Length 13.7m, Height 4.23m, Area 81.2m^2
Empty 1550kg, Loaded 2850kg ~ One Schwarzloese MG, Small tactical bombload.

Brandenburg LW: single Heinkel machine no. 577 derived from CI
2 crew 160hp Mercedes DIII.
Span 12.4m, Length 9.5m, Height ?, Area 42.6m^2
Empty 994kg, Loaded 1555kg ~ One Parabulum MG.
130km/h, 1000m in 12 min

Brandenburg KW: (designed for 260hp Mercedes DIVa)
2 crew 200hp Benz BzIV.
Span 16.4m, Length 11.16m, Height 4.06, Area 60.4m^2
Empty 1447kg, Loaded 2106kg ~ One Parabulum MG.
134km/h, 1000m in 14.5 min, 6 hr duration
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#10 Avimimus

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 00:57

Thanks!

It has been a long hard slog, but look at what I've found out! :x :lol:



Lohner Typ 'E' / 'M'

- 1914

- 90-100 km/h (65-52 mph)

- Up to one flexible forward firing machine gun (However, photos may be lacking).

- 50kg of bombs.

- Smaller predecessor to the Lohner L. Von Banfield ("The Eagle of Trieste") scored many of his kills while flying this type. His version was apparently modified into a single-seater with a fixed forward firing gun.

Image

Additional image?
http://flyingmachine...drome/206-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://flyingmachine...drome/206-1.jpg







Lohner Typ "L" / "T"

- >100 built, 1915. Over 200 if other Lohner types are included.

- 105-110 km/h (65 mph) for Lohner L, some up-engined versions appear to have exceeded 140 km/h (86 mph)

- One flexible forward firing maching gun (Some may have had a second gun for the pilot, and up to two guns on late war three crew Lohners). Good field of view for the gunner. Some had armoured turrets.

- 200 kg of bombs (flown with only two crew)

- First aircraft to disable/sink a submarine. First photographic operation of the war. A captured example formed the basis for the Macchi floatplanes - which the Lohner's later fought (with 14 direct copies made by Italy). There is also a case of three Italians escaping by stealing one. At least one example still exists.

- Von Banfield ("The Eagle of Trieste") scored the majority of his kills while flying these types (mainly the 'L' & smaller 'M').

Image

Image

License produced German version: http://flyingmachine...Osprey/33-3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://flyingmachine.../Images7/04-Oth … y/33-3.jpg









Hansa-Brandenburg W.13 ("Typ K")

- 130 built, 65 flyable (another 65 airframes were ready, but without engines), 1917

- 130-150 km/h (85-93 mph)

- Up to two flexible forward firing maching guns (and three crew)

- 200 kg bomb load

- Powered by two coupled 180hp engines (350 hp rating).

- Used in many bombing attacks (including one raid consisting of 14 aircraft)! One was carefully studied in the U.S. after the war (well documented).

Image

Image

Additional image: http://flyingmachine...erman/291-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://flyingmachine.../Images7/Putnam … /291-1.jpg

Cockpit image: http://i239.photobuc...13/IMG_8814.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://i239.photobuc...com/albums/ff14 … G_8814.jpg







Oeffag G - 1916

- 9-12 Built, 8 additional examples cancelled after two crashed

- 110 km/h (68 mph) on 150 hp engines (later aircraft carried 210 hp engines)

- 600-800kg bomb load. Originally planned to carry two Torpedos (but abandoned in favour of bombs and cannon).

- Equipped with conventional 66mm D/20 cannon (400 kg weapon replacing the bomb load), with 5kg AP rounds.

- The aircraft had a crew position behind the propellers (good for defense) and at least one defensive machine gun station

- Three engine, four crew, flying boat. 4000kg weight. Considered under-powered. Concerns over structural weaknesses eventually ended the program. However, the existing aircraft were used in combat.

- Images of the aircraft in flight exist, as well as the following drawings:
'There were 4 plans left at the Kriegsarchiv,but nobody there could tell me from which G numbers they were. They were all from 1916,so they must be from the last series(G7,G8,G9). One showed a side view of the fuselage,one a top view of the entire ship,one the control cable arrangement and the other one was a top view showing the cutouts'

Image

Image

Image

Additional photographs: http://www.heeresges...e/g_serie_1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.heeresges...hten.at/luftwaf … erie_1.htm

Additional specs: http://forum.valka.c...pic.php/t/94409" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://forum.valka.c...pic.php/t/94409
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#11 Avimimus

Avimimus
  • Posts: 1317

Posted 12 September 2012 - 00:57

Thanks!

It has been a long hard slog, but look at what I've found out! :x :lol:



Lohner Typ 'E' / 'M'

- 1914

- 90-100 km/h (65-52 mph)

- Up to one flexible forward firing machine gun (However, photos may be lacking).

- 50kg of bombs.

- Smaller predecessor to the Lohner L. Von Banfield ("The Eagle of Trieste") scored many of his kills while flying this type. His version was apparently modified into a single-seater with a fixed forward firing gun.

Image

Additional image?
http://flyingmachine...drome/206-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://flyingmachine...drome/206-1.jpg







Lohner Typ "L" / "T"

- >100 built, 1915. Over 200 if other Lohner types are included.

- 105-110 km/h (65 mph) for Lohner L, some up-engined versions appear to have exceeded 140 km/h (86 mph)

- One flexible forward firing maching gun (Some may have had a second gun for the pilot, and up to two guns on late war three crew Lohners). Good field of view for the gunner. Some had armoured turrets.

- 200 kg of bombs (flown with only two crew)

- First aircraft to disable/sink a submarine. First photographic operation of the war. A captured example formed the basis for the Macchi floatplanes - which the Lohner's later fought (with 14 direct copies made by Italy). There is also a case of three Italians escaping by stealing one. At least one example still exists.

- Von Banfield ("The Eagle of Trieste") scored the majority of his kills while flying these types (mainly the 'L' & smaller 'M').

Image

Image

License produced German version: http://flyingmachine...Osprey/33-3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://flyingmachine.../Images7/04-Oth … y/33-3.jpg









Hansa-Brandenburg W.13 ("Typ K")

- 130 built, 65 flyable (another 65 airframes were ready, but without engines), 1917

- 130-150 km/h (85-93 mph)

- Up to two flexible forward firing maching guns (and three crew)

- 200 kg bomb load

- Powered by two coupled 180hp engines (350 hp rating).

- Used in many bombing attacks (including one raid consisting of 14 aircraft)! One was carefully studied in the U.S. after the war (well documented).

Image

Image

Additional image: http://flyingmachine...erman/291-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://flyingmachine.../Images7/Putnam … /291-1.jpg

Cockpit image: http://i239.photobuc...13/IMG_8814.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://i239.photobuc...com/albums/ff14 … G_8814.jpg







Oeffag G - 1916

- 9-12 Built, 8 additional examples cancelled after two crashed

- 110 km/h (68 mph) on 150 hp engines (later aircraft carried 210 hp engines)

- 600-800kg bomb load. Originally planned to carry two Torpedos (but abandoned in favour of bombs and cannon).

- Equipped with conventional 66mm D/20 cannon (400 kg weapon replacing the bomb load), with 5kg AP rounds.

- The aircraft had a crew position behind the propellers (good for defense) and at least one defensive machine gun station

- Three engine, four crew, flying boat. 4000kg weight. Considered under-powered. Concerns over structural weaknesses eventually ended the program. However, the existing aircraft were used in combat.

- Images of the aircraft in flight exist, as well as the following drawings:
'There were 4 plans left at the Kriegsarchiv,but nobody there could tell me from which G numbers they were. They were all from 1916,so they must be from the last series(G7,G8,G9). One showed a side view of the fuselage,one a top view of the entire ship,one the control cable arrangement and the other one was a top view showing the cutouts'

Image

Image

Image

Additional photographs: http://www.heeresges...e/g_serie_1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.heeresges...hten.at/luftwaf … erie_1.htm

Additional specs: http://forum.valka.c...pic.php/t/94409" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://forum.valka.c...pic.php/t/94409


If you have anything to add I'd love to hear it!
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#12 realCallahan

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:43

I heared that the Lohner often lost it`s rudder.
Sorry, I forgot who told me that, perhaps when I was in a museum.

Callahan
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#13 SupaGringo

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 19:31

nice collection, those lohner-types sure a confusing



now just a quick skin-idea from the italians:

Attached Files


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#14 Avimimus

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 22:11

Yes, it is primarily because they all are unfamiliar to English speakers and have a similar layout.

The first three of those Seaplanes were used as fighters btw. The first one weighs as much as a Macchi M.5…

Macchi M.5, 1917

+ 190 km/h (117 mph), comparable to most opponents (Up-engined 1918 version attained 205-210 km/h)

+ 244 built

+ In service for a significant period - from the middle of 1917 to the end of the war

+ Single Seat Seaplane fighter

+ Two fixed forward firing machine guns. Sometimes carried an additional Lewis gun,

+ For the Yanks: "flown by both United States Navy and United States Marine Corps airmen. Ensign Charles Hammann won the first Medal of Honor awarded to a United States naval aviator in an M.5."

Image

Image




Hansa-Brandenburg CC (Typ A)

- 73-171 built (Mostly Austrio-Hungarian, 26 in German service), 1916

- 165-180 km/h (109-112 mph), depending on engine fitted.

- One or Two fixed forward firing machine guns

- The fastest naval fighter used by the Central Powers (with Austrio-Hungarian development). It was faster than the Abatros W.4 or Rumpler 6B.

- A possible stand-in for Von Banfield ("The Eagle of Trieste")'s famous Blue Wonder (a one-off airplane built for the Ace).

Image

Image

Image










Hansa-Brandenburg W.18

- 47 built (1 delivered?), 1918

- 170 km/h (106 mph)

- Two fixed forward firing machine guns

- Performance identical to the CC except for a 30% larger wing (improved climb and maneuverability).

Image
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#15 Lieste

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 23:01

The W29 and W33 should be comparable in speed, and had the Ursinus fighter not been lost during trials it should have been faster that most land based fighters too…
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#16 Wisdom_Hunting

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 13:32

Looking at those planes made Felixstowe something from the distant future.
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