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scout pilot skin for germany w/ wip new model


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#41 zachanscom

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:11

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what do you think of this color? less green, more grey, darker, etc.

this is just preliminary test with low poly, normal mapped model. goggles still need to make. only 3k+ triangles. it's getting there.
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#42 redcoat22

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 12:43

Image

what do you think of this color? less green, more grey, darker, etc.

this is just preliminary test with low poly, normal mapped model. goggles still need to make. only 3k+ triangles. it's getting there.

I dont know about the color of the suit, but judging from the B/W photos the boots look brown and not black (smooth dark brown leather looks black in B/W) and the belt looks like natural brown leather rather than dark.

Amazing work on making this model. Does ROF use 3k models?

It would be great to have the observer crash helmet made.
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#43 elephant

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 13:12

You are getting there indeed!
You may have to change the thread title though, since this project is not just a new skin for German scout pilots.

About the colour of the German Fliegerkombination, now…
The colours would vary from off white cream to lighter or darker tan brown, lighter or darker field grey to black.
To give you a hint of the shade of field grey, here is a pair of fur lined fling overboots:

Attached File  uniforms-015-german-flying-boots_screensize.jpg   65.42KB   329 downloads

This uniform also is considered to be field grey:

Attached File  lgr109bluse.jpg   186.81KB   329 downloads

Check out the different shades of the same type of overalls worn by this LVG C.VI crew in this pic:

Attached File  lvg c_vi 4802~18 lt weymar and lt haselhoff 18~9~18.jpg   184.04KB   329 downloads

Also notice how the suit is strapped at the wrists and ancles in order to prevent the cold from getting through. The pilot is wearing overboots, additionally.

One more with darker flight overalls and field grey overboots:

Attached File  Pfalz D_IIIa 4215~17 Armin Undiener - MFJ%20II.jpg   171.63KB   329 downloads

And finally some very dark-black examples from JG1 in 1918:

Attached File  Parachutes-MvR.jpg   275.06KB   329 downloads

I hope I'll be back soon with some more info…

:S!:
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#44 elephant

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 15:32

The Evolution of Flight Clothing in the Luftstreitkräfte

The first flying clothing that was issued to the Flying Corps was derived from garments used at the Transport Branch .

These were a 3/4 fleece or fur lined woollen overcoat, with detachable fleece or fur collar,
or a 3/4 double breasted (black) leather coat and leather trousers (motorcyclist's).
The regulation flight leather caps were also derived from the ones used by motorcyclists:

The characteristic type of German flying cap here in a pre war photo worn by a motorcyclist.

Attached File  nsu_1914_grossbozo.jpg   40.41KB   310 downloads

Early German pilot sporting the 3/4 double breasted leather coat worn with leather trousers and leggings.
A privately purchased French Roold crash helmet is also worn.
(The Roold crash helmet would be copied by the Germans, before they develop their own type,
with only one distinctive difference between the two almost identical helmets, a button on top of the helmet's canopy).


Attached File  Juskat, Julius.jpg   21.44KB   310 downloads

Max Immelmann sporting the same type of leather coat with fur collar.

Attached File  immelmann001.jpg   22.83KB   310 downloads

The leather coats were discontinued from June 1916,
still they can be seen in use although more rarely, till the end of the War.

Franz Ray sporting this type of coat in 1918.

Attached File  franzray3_480.jpg   34.4KB   310 downloads

Flieger Schießschule (air-gunnery) in Asch Belgium, June 1918

Attached File  Flieger Schießschule (air-gunnery) in Asch Belgium, June 1918.jpg   4.97MB   310 downloads

More common were the woollen fleece lined coats throughout the war,
even after the introduction of the special made flight suits.
Under the coat a long, heavy (field grey) woollen sweater was worn.
Each man was issued two pairs of gloves: one fleece lined for winter and one without for summer wear.
A woollen scarf was also issued but, almost everyone was using his own items.
Because of the little protection provided against the cold, the regulation infantry boots and leather leggings were gradually dropped
in favour of ankle boots and puttees, at first unofficially and only for flying purposes
and from 1916 and on were officially addopted by the Flying Branch.

The 3/4 lined greatcoat with ankle boots and puttees worn by German crew.

Attached File  German crew1.jpg   101.67KB   310 downloads

The same combination worn by Lothar von Richthofen,
seen here dismounting from his Alb.D.III in April 1917, Roucourt.


Attached File  1AlbatrosDIIILothar2.jpg   114.4KB   310 downloads

A group of aircrew sporting cloth coats and a number of combinations of trousers-breaches with puttees-leggings.
Two guys at the bottom right are wearing the regulation woollen sweaters.


Attached File  Aircrew - early.jpg   147.38KB   310 downloads

one more from Autumn 1917.

Attached File  zencominierskilothar.jpg   108.96KB   310 downloads

I have to take a break now…I'm too tired from work! :xx:

To be continued…
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#45 Gunsmith86

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 16:26



German pilots at 15:32 min/ 24:25 min and 40:55 min

maybe that helps with colors.
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#46 zachanscom

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 17:18

that's some great info there, thanks.
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#47 elephant

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 17:54

No, I'm afraid this clip should not taken under consideration regarding colours.
It's colourised recently, I have the whole series in DVD, it contains lots of misconceptions. :?
(Look at the red triplane of MvR, for example, if you see the original clip you'll understand that
the plane bore the factory streaked type of camo and if I'm not terribly wrong,
Antony Fokker himself was doing the shooting at his Factory at Schwerin).

Nevertheless the part that shows MvR preparing for take off is extremely interesting,
as it shows the real procedure of a pilot dressing up for flight and how the scarf was originally worn,
even if it's kind of simplified and rushed, (he doesn't bother to actually button his jacket),
because the shooting is obviously staged.

I'll be back with some more info on flight clothing later, including the flight trousers MvR is shown wearing on that clip and the two types of German flight overalls.

:S!:
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#48 ER_O_v._Kessler

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 18:36

which rendering -program do you use ?
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Spandau.. What else ?? :icon_mad:


#49 zachanscom

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 18:37

i keep thinking they have fur linings inside the collar, but it appears they don't. can you confirm this?

which rendering -program do you use ?

sculptris for high poly creation and xnormal for baking/rendering
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#50 elephant

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 19:19

I do confirm that, no fur lining.
What you actually see in the pic below and in the LVG C.VI crew above, is the insides of the collar been folded down…

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Here also a pic that you can see the top three collar buttons loose and the collar unfolded.

Image

And another unfolded collar from the other side.

Image

:S!:
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#51 zachanscom

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 00:29

thanks

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#52 Gunsmith86

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:02

(1871-1918) German Army & Navy Uniforms & Insignia
http://archive.org/download/1871-1918GermanArmyNavyUniformsInsignia/1871-1918GermanArmyNavyUniformsInsignia.pdf

Page 165-168
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#53 redcoat22

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:53

thanks

Image

Looking very nice. The leather helmet looks amazing. I would personally prefer the more common 'cat eye' goggles but obviously you are the one doing all of the work so you can make what you want :) . Elephant posted some nice pictures of the goggles I am talking about.

Is this model something 777 can use or is this simply a personal project? I lack any knowledge of how modeling works but I cannot imagine one can simply 'drag and drop' this into the game without dev support.

Keep it up! (and make an observer with the crash helmet next!)

Edit: After looking at the photos Elephant posted again, the collar should be folded down rather than appear 'up'. The model we have here looks like its a standing up collar. Unless of course I am mistaken about the original flight suit construction.
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#54 elephant

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 14:53

Yes, I do prefer the "cat eyes" type more than the squared type.
You should consider adding a little "volume" to the sides too.
They seem to have only the frame now.
The sleeves and cuffs of the suit are still to be modelled accurately i.e. buckled with leather straps.

Image

(Check out the guy on the right, in the LVG C.IV pic, also)

The concept was to prevent cold air from passing through.
About the collar, Redcoat is right, if it should be shown rolled down as it was historically, you have to get rid of those folds…or
you could use them and make a scarf that was used to conceal the joint between the collar and pilots head.
Check out the pics to see how the (woollen) scarf was worn (rolled around and fastened behind the neck):

Image

Image

Image

Image

Also check the original clip with MvR preparing for take off and Hermann Goering removing his
flight gear after landing:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=fP4VZAPDmiM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">

http://www.youtube.c...channel&list=UL" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"> … el&list=UL

I've just returned home, from work…
I'll post the second part of the Flight Gear evolution later…

:S!:
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#55 zachanscom

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 18:35

i actually did try to do cat eyes, but the orange-yellowish transparent tint i was using doesn't show up in the renderer. also the side of the goggles is too angular, that's why it looks square. i've already rounded it off some more.

redcoat, i'm hoping this project can be made official for the german pilot. or at least optional for mod off mode.

elephant, i'll see what i can do about those details.
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#56 elephant

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 20:18

Thanks for your efforts, zachanscom!

The Evolution of Flight Clothing in the Luftstreitkräfte part II

With the increasing airspeed and higher altitude capabilities of the planes in 1916,
the need of a specially designed garment emerged and the flight trousers were born.
It was a very bulky pair of trousers made of napped heavy cotton fabric (German Moleskin)
so the 3/4 coat be tucked into it and then fastened tightly in the waist (with it's embodied leather belt) so the cold air couldn't get through.
For the same reason the lower part of the cuffs from the knee down were designed tight, fastening with laces from knee to ankle
and the front crotch was buttoned to the right side with three large buttons.

Here are some examples from late 1916. (BTW, that's how the Albatros D.II pilot should be portrayed). ;)

Oswald Boelcke

Image

Image

Image

Image

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This configuration 3/4 Überjacke-flight trousers, remained popular throughout the War.

Fokker D.VII pilot in 1918, with the same flight gear configuration (only with leather 3/4 coat this time).

Image

Check out the MvR video I posted above for further details.

In 1917 a more sophisticated piece of equipment made it's appearance:
The Moleskin flight overalls.
It was a bulky double breasted suit designed to be worn over the pilots uniform, made of the same heavy material but,
this time the buttons were concealed and the sleeves and cuffs were fastened (buckled) with leather straps.

Image

Image

Image

Image

The most common colour was black or dark grey but here is what I found searching in the net for reference pictures.

Image

Image

Image

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Check out the cat eye goggle variation.

Image

From mid to late 1917, a new type, with better collar design (the one zachanscom is modelling) was introduced.
(see previous posts for details).

elephant's out… :S!:
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#57 LordNeuro_Srb

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 21:32

Exelent work. I hope u will manage to get it in rof. :S!:
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#58 Der.Mo

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:40

Fingers crossed!!
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#59 AnKor85

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:50

Very nice work, zachanscom!

Someone should contact devs for details about how pilot models are made. Keeping polycount within limits is only part of the problem, but there ought to be other requirments.

My main concern: can this model be animated in 3DS Max? Keep in mind that pilot can make some gestures, turn his head and has "idle" and "death" animation.

And a small note about glasses - there must be a reason why pilot's eyes are painted on the glasses in current model. I'm not sure if it is possible to use transparent glass here.

PS: Keep doing what you find interesting, but as an option you may also think about making some buildings. They should be much simpler to make (= no animation). On the other hand I'm not sure though if there any requests for new buildings.
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#60 zachanscom

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:17

i think yes for transparency because there's opaque panels and bullet holes on the planes. they are the same format "mgm" as pilot.

as for buildings, i had several ideas from reading suggestions, but there's also the possibility they're being made or have been made already, especially since the new map is coming out.
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#61 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:56

Lovely model but is there ever a time in ROF that you see the legs (below the thighs) and especially the boots/feet of the pilot?
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#62 elephant

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 13:19

That's logical, Tom…
So why not modelling the historically correct fur lined overboots, zachanscom and save some polygons as well? ;)
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#63 zachanscom

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 17:38

i'm tempted, but that actually might cost more polygons cause a lot of the connections are smooth. with just the flight suit, you can leave some straight edges and jagged lines and they'd just look like sag.
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#64 elephant

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 17:44

OK, then…you know better. ;)
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#65 zachanscom

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 17:49

actually, i should make a separate version to test it out. i'll post the results here.

edit: i saved about a dozen faces but it looks kind of strange.

Image
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#66 zachanscom

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 20:42

computer generated rendering of what it might look like in game:

Image
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#67 realCallahan

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 05:02

computer generated rendering of what it might look like in game:

Image

It looks much better,
perhaps later in future you can select the pilot`s coat like the scarfs or streamers…
What a thought…
Niceley done! :S!:
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#68 =Fifi=

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:42

Man, this guy has really weird eyes! :o :lol:
Take my avatar if you need…
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#69 MarcoRossolini

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:30

And his goggles are covered in egg.
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#70 realCallahan

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:42

Image

Haha,

What about that eyes for aggressive gunners and pilots?

PS.:
A new idea from me:
Perhaps you can select the gunner and the pilot in the Hangar… And the flight suite (f.e. Winter Summer and colour…).

I hope this will be available soon!

Regards,
Callahan
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#71 realCallahan

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:44

By the way:

When Im thinking about Rise Of Flight…
I always think about that perfect made planes.
But if you look at the gunners or pilts it seems they are not important to 777.
Change that! :)
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#72 redcoat22

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 14:27

computer generated rendering of what it might look like in game:

Image

It looks much better,
perhaps later in future you can select the pilot`s coat like the scarfs or streamers…
What a thought…
Niceley done! :S!:

It's getting there. The model still needs the collar fixed to appear turned down rather than bunched up.

Great work man! Now make the crash helmet.
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#73 zachanscom

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 20:46

yeah some of the textures are showing up weird in the renderer, hence the egg in the eye. that's supposed to be an opaque light orange color that covers the whole goggle. also, i thought they had different types of collars? in some of the photos they had shorter collars that bunched up. dunno, maybe i'll turn it into a scarf or something.
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#74 zachanscom

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 10:40

Image
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#75 realCallahan

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 11:00

…He looks like my grandfather…
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#76 redcoat22

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:00

Image

Now we are talking!

I might agree that instead of the collar being.. a collar.. make it a scarf. Looking at the pictures posted earlier in the thread we see it was commonly done and it will help break up the monotone grey color.
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#77 FlightFight

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:22

Callahan, regarding your post: "By the way:

When Im thinking about Rise Of Flight…
I always think about that perfect made planes.
But if you look at the gunners or pilts it seems they are not important to 777.
Change that! :)"

I think 777 Studios is right about giving priority to the better game not the better looks.

Making the pilots more detailed needs more power from the computer to compute and isn't nessesary for my taste. ;)

I want perfect looking planes, not perfect looking pilots. 8-)
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#78 realCallahan

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 15:30

Callahan, regarding your post: "By the way:

When Im thinking about Rise Of Flight…
I always think about that perfect made planes.
But if you look at the gunners or pilts it seems they are not important to 777.
Change that! :)"

I think 777 Studios is right about giving priority to the better game not the better looks.

Making the pilots more detailed needs more power from the computer to compute and isn't nessesary for my taste. ;)

I want perfect looking planes, not perfect looking pilots. 8-)

Yea, but remember:
The pilot is more or less part of the plane and I dont want to look into ugly-computer-faces!
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#79 zachanscom

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 20:36

Image

Now we are talking!

I might agree that instead of the collar being.. a collar.. make it a scarf. Looking at the pictures posted earlier in the thread we see it was commonly done and it will help break up the monotone grey color.

yes, that's the plan. the textures are also quick made for testing purposes. in the final version, there will be more occlusion and details as well.

@flightfight, these pilots are only 3500-4000 triangles(and still continuing optimizing), the details come from normal map and occlusion applied to the texture. also, with lods, you can have detailed models, no problem. i think there is also need for historical accuracy of german pilots. with the unique uv map of the torso, it can have the flap closing on right side only.

and yes, flying bomber and two seaters, sometimes you see the proportions of the model or flatness of some areas very close up, so the looks of the pilot is equally important.

@callahan, i saw the halberstadt skin, and i think i know the problem. they have the cockpit, which we barely see, occupy a huge spot in the texture. the turret ring is a small disc in the texture, and the body of the halberstadt is tucked into a small corner of the texture like sardines.
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#80 Der.Mo

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 21:12

Good work so far, nice black helmet,

but i think a brown leather color was more common, i think ;)
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