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Gunner Position / AI mods (Version 1.032 Update)


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#41 copterdrvr

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 19:33

I've been a big fan of your mods-how do things look for an update for 1.029b?

Thanks!!!
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#42 Red-Piano

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:22

Could you make a version of the gunner mod that does two things:
1. Allow the gunner to fire between the wings of the W.29

2. Allow the gunner to actually get kills, they don't have to be a sniper but it would be nice if they could use the becker accurately without throwing away all the ammo without damaging anything.
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#43 Avimimus

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 20:48

Could you make a version of the gunner mod that does two things:
1. Allow the gunner to fire between the wings of the W.29

2. Allow the gunner to actually get kills, they don't have to be a sniper but it would be nice if they could use the becker accurately without throwing away all the ammo without damaging anything.




1. I'll look into it (I presume you're refering to the W.12 - or is that grin in your signature real!).



2. The new version of the mod has separate settings for the Becker cannon gunners:

They now fire very short bursts and wait until the enemy comes into optimal firing range. This means less ammunition wasting, less jams and less reloading by the time the enemy comes close. The player can override the range setting by ordering the gunner to 'fire at long range' in the order menu. This has a 3x multiplier (more than usual) which makes the gunner fire at normal ranges (useful for attacking bombers).


As for overall accuracy - the mod still has two-seaters shooting down an equal (or greater) number of scouts in some types of engagements. With the right pilot an AI gunner should be able to score two or three kills.

Important factors on the exchange ratio:
- The relative speeds of scouts and the two-seaters (fast scouts have an advantage in surviving)
- The AI level of the scouts (anything below Veteran can't hit a target reliably and will be shot down)
- If the gunner is set to 'Ace' (Ace gunners are much more accurate than Veteran in my mod)
- If there are multiple two seaters covering each other (vs. dogfighting)

Try different settings in the QMB and count how many fighters go down

:S!:
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#44 Avimimus

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 20:49

Ehh, bottom line (in comparison to the 1.026 version and the default game), does this mod make 2-seaters more or less difficult to attack?


Short answer:

Overall the gunners are slightly less accurate.


Long answer:

The mod makes the AI less predictable (The AI to change its aim-point more often) and makes it harder to use exploits (waiting at maximum range until the gunner is out of ammo or pop-up attacks).

However, the fact that the AI uses shorter bursts and changes its aim more often means that engine/radiator/woundings are more likely than wing failures/flamers/explosions.


If you want to increase the accuracy of the gunners - there are now instructions in the readme file.
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#45 Avimimus

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 20:50

I've been a big fan of your mods-how do things look for an update for 1.029b?

Thanks!!!

Thanks! The mod still works with 1.029b - the only relevant changes in the last patcher were updates to the damage models of some aircraft.

So, any new release at this point would be further tweaking of values. To do this I could do with suggestions.

I'm particularly interested in how people feel regarding the performance of Lewis (Entente) and Parabellum (Central Powers) gunners. I've now implemented a way to tweak the two separately.
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#46 copterdrvr

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:51

I figured as much as I went ahead and installed your update anyway-figuring that it would be awesome!

I was right as it's all working perfectly!!!

Your mods are truly awesome and make the sim much more enjoyable for me!
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#47 AussiePilot

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 07:44

G'day Avimimus, just wanted to thank you for this latest version. Finally got around to putting it on the server and testing it. The guys seem really happy with it, thanks for the great work.
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#48 Avimimus

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 03:14

Thanks! I could not think of a higher complement than people using it online (given the group compromise and balance necessitated).
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#49 Avimimus

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:46

Here is an experimental mod - it should make Submarines fire their main guns at you! The gun doesn't have proximity fuses (so it requires a direct hit to denoate) and can only fire on you if you're within 30 degrees of the horizon.

I need to know how this interacts with diving behaviours.

It'd also be good to know if there are any other problems.

Let me know how it works…

Attached Files


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#50 Dads1958

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 18:07

Avimimus any chance of a version 1.030 update soon?
or
Please sir may I have some more? :)
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#51 Avimimus

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 19:42

It is up!

Could you make a version of the gunner mod that does two things:
1. Allow the gunner to fire between the wings of the W.29

Hello Red-Piano - I tried making such a mod for the W.12. It didn't work - the field of fire was essentially worse (it isn't an FF-33 where firing through the wing was an important tactic).

However, it was good for turning the W.12 into a W.29 (you could shoot off the top wing easily)… Unfortunately, the lower wing doesn't provide sufficient lift (wrong size and cross-section), the aircraft can still be flown with one wing - but not for long.
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#52 HotTom

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 19:45

Av, as I've said many time before, all of your mods are great for the guy in the scout chasing the two-seater.

But they have been hopeless for the guy flying the two-seater because they nerf the gunner so much that he fires at empty sky and can't track the target.

Sorry, but I've tried your gunner mods too many times and ended up tossing them. Fool me once, etc. :oops:
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#53 BroadSide

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 21:33

Thanks Avimimus!

I have a question:

What is the difference between your new mod and these that I have in my JSGME folder?

AI gunner mod (Richy133 and Gavagai)
(I have this loaded along with RoF Gunner Positions Mod and AI mod 1.029)
AI pilots (Criquet)
AI pilot awareness (Gavagai)
RoF Criquet AI Increased accuracy scouts


Also, does your new flak mod for 1.30 replace your "reduced flak accuracy" mod?
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#54 Avimimus

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 23:41

Thanks Avimimus!

I have a question:

What is the difference between your new mod and these that I have in my JSGME folder?

Fully Independent mods

Also, does your new flak mod for 1.30 replace your "reduced flak accuracy" mod?

Yes. It is simply an updated version.

AI pilot awareness (Gavagai)

The AI pilot awareness mod by Gavagai is independent of the others and compatible.

There is also the stand-alone 'Gunner AI' mod which makes gunners less predictable, faster to react, better at conserving ammunition and a little bit less dangerous. This is the one Hottom doesn't like. It can be used separately, but was tested alongside the gunner positions mod (below).



Mods which are actually different versions of each other

AI pilots (Criquet)
RoF Criquet AI Increased accuracy scouts

These mods replace each other (whichever one you installed last will be the active one). The 'increased accuracy scouts' is simply a version that makes scouts (single-seat aircraft) slightly better shots.

AI gunner mod (Richy133 and Gavagai)
(I have this loaded along with RoF Gunner Positions Mod and AI mod 1.029)

These mods started as fixes for the fields of fire in some of the two-seaters (to prevent them from firing through the fuselage). I believe that Gavagai has stopped actively developing the mod in protest over the lack of flight-model revisions.

The 'Gunner Position' mod I made is similar, but it adds some features: The gun ring rotation speeds have been carefully adjusted and several tweaks added to various aircraft (e.g. increased dispersion for the twin-parabellum, more ammunition for the Gotha's 20mm cannon). It can be used with or without the Gunner AI mod.
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#55 gavagai

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 23:57

AI gunner mod (Richy133 and Gavagai)
(I have this loaded along with RoF Gunner Positions Mod and AI mod 1.029)

These mods started as fixes for the fields of fire in some of the two-seaters (to prevent them from firing through the fuselage). I believe that Gavagai has stopped actively developing the mod in protest over the lack of flight-model revisions.

No, my not developing the mod further is just an accidental consequence of my not buying new content in general. After watching that video about how most customers who complain simply cave in the moment they see something shiny, I am exercising my will power and letting my money speak. Fix the FMs already.
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#56 BroadSide

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 23:59

Thank you Avimimus. That clears things up!
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#57 J.j.

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:57

Hmmm… perhaps it's better here:
This file should cure the non selectable weapons mods with new planes. In fact, the file must be updated every time there are new planes in ROF with new weapons mods.

http://www.mediafire...k9tk06dzha9qcfk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mediafire...k9tk06dzha9qcfk

It should replace the current file in \Rise of Flight\data\swf\data\planesweaponmods Avimimus.

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#58 BroadSide

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 18:05

JJ–
What does this file do? Is it also a mod, or replacing a mod?
I havent come across any non selectable weapons….
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#59 J.j.

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 18:38

It's a fix for Avimimus pack (changing the default armament of the F2B). It is already included in my pack, and was integrated in Avimimus's pack but was causing a bug with weapons mods for new planes. Wait for Avimimus to include it in his modpack.
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#60 Avimimus

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:05

Thanks J.j. - Great catch!

The new pack is up (and includes the fix). Sixty-six people need to download it a second time… ;)
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#61 BroadSide

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:50

Thanks Avimimus!
I dl'ed the RoF mods 1.030 release 2 file and had it overwrite existing files. That should do it right?
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#62 Avimimus

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 14:31

Yes - that will do it.

One of the files has been updated with three new entries. So long as it gets replaced when you copy in the files the fix should work.

These mods cover fairly limited areas and tend to not produce compatibility issues - it is simply whatever mod you installed last that works! Similarly, you can uninstall the mod by just deleting the files (or copying in the files and hitting 'control + z'. The game will just revert to its original settings.
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#63 hq_Jorri

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 14:37

Thanks!
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#64 PhallosMaximus

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 15:33

Just tried your AI/Gunner Pos. mod in combination, and now you can actually shoot down a 2-seater and live to tell the story,- great!

Do you include the wide blind spots that all 2-seaters/bombers had?


After that I tried your Flak mod,- ironically this was the first mission in my career (Jasta 2) where any in my squad was killed by Flak!
So it's not totally nerfed then :-)


Anyway, nice to be back in RoF after a long intermission (2 years) and your mods has just made it better…

Cheers,
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#65 RoclorD

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 15:24

Hi Avimimus!

Will you post your mods on RoFmods site? Surely more people would know about them.
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"Don't read history - make it" - Knights of the Sky


#66 Shutter

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 21:19

:S!:
GREAT JOB, Avimimus!

This is a much needed improvement!

Will you give the FE2 the same treatment? The pictures that have been released look outstanding but, the observer has two guns on the ring and none on a post (behind facing aft).

Keep up the good work!

8-)
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#67 HotTom

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 00:36

Still sucks if you're flying a two-seater.

Av has been peddling this snake oil remedy for quite awhile.

It's great for the single seat pilots because it nerfs the gunners so much.

But if you're flying the two seater, you're gonna swear your gunner is deaf, dumb and blind.

No thanks.
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#68 Avimimus

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 15:14

Hot Tom, I'll start taking you seriously when you release a better gunner AI mod… :D

Besides - The newest version of my mod has instructions on how to tweak gunner accuracy. So you can make your own adjustments…


:S!:
GREAT JOB, Avimimus!

This is a much needed improvement!

Will you give the FE2 the same treatment? The pictures that have been released look outstanding but, the observer has two guns on the ring and none on a post (behind facing aft).

Keep up the good work!

8-)

Thank you,

Yes, the F.E.2 will be included once it is released. I will probably tweak the gunner if possible to make him a bit more aggressive (given the offensive role taken by the gunner).
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#69 HotTom

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 17:17

Av, I have no intention of trying to make a gunner Mod.

I also have no intention of using a lame mod someone else makes.

I would like to see 777 improve the gunner default (and they have to some degree).

Sorry to be so harsh but, again, I don't think you design these mods with the two-seater crew in mind, only making it safer for the attacking single-seat pilot.

This is from a poster above, note the point of view he is taking: Just tried your AI/Gunner Pos. mod in combination, and now you can actually shoot down a 2-seater and live to tell the story,- great!

I gave your latest mod my "Biff Test" today and the gunner is still so nerfed he might as well not be there.

The default gunner already is so pathetic (if you're the pilot of a two-seater), making him even worse is not an improvement IMO.

Again, I salute your efforts but the result will only please the single seat pilots.

On the other hand, I do like the way you've nerfed the AAA.

:S!:
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#70 Avimimus

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 17:29

Try adjusting the values (as described in the readme file).
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#71 HotTom

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 17:42

Okay I'll give it a try.
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#72 Edward_Gale

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 18:08

:S!:
GREAT JOB, Avimimus!

This is a much needed improvement!

Will you give the FE2 the same treatment? The pictures that have been released look outstanding but, the observer has two guns on the ring and none on a post (behind facing aft).

Keep up the good work!

8-)

The Scarff ring in the picture is just a placeholder, it will be fixed on release.
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#73 thedudeWG

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 15:06

Avimimus,
Great work! I don't know if you're still testing or tweaking these, but unfortunately I think the blast damage makes the flak even MORE effective. I flew 5 or 6 missions with default install, and was blasted out of the sky twice (instant death on one), and witnessed a few flak kills on squadmates. I deleted the 'explosions' folder and then applied the mod, and it runs pretty well. I was even wounded by flak once and lived to fight on.

I'd love to know what the original values were in the 'flak' files. I think it might be nice to (slightly) increase the accuracy from the modified values, if the flak damages were greatly minimized. My worries about fixing the flak problem by decreasing accuracy, is that you'll still have too high of a chance of being downed by flak in dogfights, or when flying near other friendly units. I think the best way to combat the problem is by making the flak much less powerful (along with the other adjustments you've made).

Do you have the stock values for the 'air', 'airblack', and 'airgrey' files? I'd like to try playing around with the values in them. Maybe I only need to know the original values of the ones you've changed - I'm guessing; ExplosionPower, Radius, Pressure, and ShrapnelQuantity, but I could be wrong.

Thanks! :S!:
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#74 Flying_Toaster

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 22:41

As I sit here mourning my latest DiD career end (collision with a friendly), I am wondering if it is possible to tweak the AI to make it more cowardly. I've been reading Winged Warfare by Billy Bishop, and something that comes up time and time again (and in other WW1 pieces) is that aircraft would so often run away.
Here in RoF, as we all know, the AI almost never runs away, and will happily chase you back to your aerodrome….
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#75 thedudeWG

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:16

As I sit here mourning my latest DiD career end (collision with a friendly), I am wondering if it is possible to tweak the AI to make it more cowardly. I've been reading Winged Warfare by Billy Bishop, and something that comes up time and time again (and in other WW1 pieces) is that aircraft would so often run away.
Here in RoF, as we all know, the AI almost never runs away, and will happily chase you back to your aerodrome….

I think Bishop's observation (and other pilots') was more of sense of "self preservation" that opponents demonstrated. I wish the AI would avoid engagements where the odds heavily favor their opponent. It would definitely make things more realistic, albeit at the expense of the amount of action one would experience.
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#76 Flying_Toaster

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 10:09

I think Bishop's observation (and other pilots') was more of sense of "self preservation" that opponents demonstrated. I wish the AI would avoid engagements where the odds heavily favor their opponent. It would definitely make things more realistic, albeit at the expense of the amount of action one would experience.

Exactly! The term 'cowardly' is a bit of hyperbole, but it really seems to have been a very prominent feature of WW1 air combat.
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#77 Avimimus

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 16:55

Do you have the stock values for the 'air', 'airblack', and 'airgrey' files? I'd like to try playing around with the values in them. Maybe I only need to know the original values of the ones you've changed - I'm guessing; ExplosionPower, Radius, Pressure, and ShrapnelQuantity, but I could be wrong.

Thanks! :S!:

Thank you! The flak mod was initially very experimental and could do with more testing.

I actually thought I'd removed those values from the most recent version (as they needed more testing)… Anyway - if you have suggestions from your tests - I'd love to incorporate them into later versions.

Class_name = "CBatchExplosion"
object_name = "Explosion"

////// PhysicsBody properties
VisualImage=0,"graphics\effects\Arm\explosionSkyShell.mgm",0
VisualRadius=5
ImageAttr=17 //IA_NOCLIP | IA_NOMINPIXELS

SoundScript="LuaScripts/explosions/Flak/air.cfg"
ExplosionPower=0.4
Animation=53700
LiveTime=28
AnimationTime=3
Ranges=4,0.01,0.24,0.25

Radius=25
Pressure=1400 // äàâëåíèå íà ðàññòîÿíèè 1 ìåòð
TNT_equ=2
// Ôóãàñíîå âîçäåéñòâèå, îáùåé öèôðîé
ArmorFoug1=3,-1, 10,100, 5,1000, 0,2000
ArmorFoug2=5,-1, 5,300, 0,1000
ArmorFoug3=10,-1, 0,300
ArmorFoug4=15,-1, 0,0
// Îñêîëî÷íîå âîçäåéñòâèå
ShrapnelQuantity=1500
// È äëÿ êàæäîãî îñêîëêà ïðîñóììèðóåòñÿ
ArmorShr1=5,-1, 5,10, 0,30
ArmorShr2=10,-1, 5,5, 0,20
ArmorShr3=25,-1, 0,10

Class_name = "CBatchExplosion"
object_name = "Explosion"

////// PhysicsBody properties
VisualImage=0,"graphics\effects\Arm\explosionSkyShell.mgm",0
VisualRadius=5
ImageAttr=17 //IA_NOCLIP | IA_NOMINPIXELS

SoundScript="LuaScripts/explosions/Flak/air.cfg"
ExplosionPower=0.8
Animation=53700
LiveTime=28
AnimationTime=3
Ranges=4,0.01,0.24,0.25

Radius=35
Pressure=2000 // äàâëåíèå íà ðàññòîÿíèè 1 ìåòð
TNT_equ=4
// Ôóãàñíîå âîçäåéñòâèå, îáùåé öèôðîé
ArmorFoug1=3,-1, 10,200, 5,2000, 0,4000
ArmorFoug2=5,-1, 5,600, 0,2000
ArmorFoug3=10,-1, 0,600
ArmorFoug4=15,-1, 0,0
// Îñêîëî÷íîå âîçäåéñòâèå
ShrapnelQuantity=1500
// È äëÿ êàæäîãî îñêîëêà ïðîñóììèðóåòñÿ
ArmorShr1=5,-1, 5,10, 0,30
ArmorShr2=10,-1, 5,5, 0,20
ArmorShr3=25,-1, 0,10

Here are my guesses:
Radius - may be the radius in which air pressure is produced
Pressure - may be the amount of air pressure produced
TNT_equ - is likely the damage done
ShrapnelQuantity - number of pieces of shrapnel calculated?

These tables I can only guess at:
ArmorFoug - penetration damage of a direct hit?
ArmorShr - penetration of shrapnel at different ranges?

I'm guessing that the last value in each pair is range. But the first value and the rows (ArmorShr1, ArmorShr2, ArmorShr3) are a mystery to me…

They could be any number of things: hit angle? penetration? probability? number of successive hits? Perhaps someone who is familiar with the mission editor could help clarify things.

Note: The different colours (grey, black etc.) are not merely different variants - they are associated with the different fillings used by the different sides in WWI. So, if you change one colour you are only changing effectiveness for one side's guns…
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#78 Avimimus

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 16:57

By the way - the messed up mystery characters are actually programmer's comments in Cyrillic.

If someone can make them readable - it would help a lot. My own guess is that there is a font issue or the tools used to unpack the files garbled it (again - should be able to convert it back if we can figure out what the character encoding /font is).
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#79 thedudeWG

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:58

Wow. So now I'm even more confused as to what was happening …

All three files in the 'flak' folder (air, airblack, & airgrey) match the default 75mm exactly, with the only exception being the image and animation for the airblack file (which makes sense). This is quite surprising, as the flak was noticeably more deadly with the 'explosions' folder included in the mod, but it seems as though you adjusted the values back to default for the latest version. Also, I don't see any file that correlates to the 100mm file you posted. I'm not sure if that could be a problem or not.

I've continued using the mod with the 'explosions' folder deleted, and have flown about 25 missions and suffered only one flak death, and I haven't noticed any AI casualties either. I can't figure out why it's so much more lethal with the 'explosions' folder included in the mod. I'm not really sure if I lower some of the values and put that folder back in the mod, if I will be improving things or not. At least, not until I can figure out why they seem so deadly at the values listed …

One observation I found, is that the adjusted min. angle still seems too low at 10 deg. My only death since removing the 'explosions' folder came at about 150 ft. off the ground, and about 150m - 200m away from a parked balloon. The only AA that could have shot at me would've been the one next to the balloon truck. That was quite a shot! I increased the min. angles to 15 deg. for all guns, and I haven't seen anyone being fired at too low anymore.

Anyway, thanks for the follow-up, Avimimus. If you have any ideas to what's confusing me, I'd appreciate any help you might be able to offer. I'll let you know if I make any new discoveries with my experiments going forward. Flak in RoF is just way too often the cause of death, and it's nearly impossible to enjoy a serious career at default levels. Your work in this area has helped tremendously so far, and I'd love to help perfect it.
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#80 NonWonderDog

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 20:14

By the way - the messed up mystery characters are actually programmer's comments in Cyrillic.

If someone can make them readable - it would help a lot. My own guess is that there is a font issue or the tools used to unpack the files garbled it (again - should be able to convert it back if we can figure out what the character encoding /font is).

Easy enough. All the data was correct in the text pasted here, but the encoding was wrong. It's as simple as saving it into a Western European file and reading it as Cyrillic (assuming you have a text editor that can handle multiple encodings, of course). Here:

Class_name = "CBatchExplosion"
object_name = "Explosion"

////// PhysicsBody properties
VisualImage=0,"graphics\effects\Arm\explosionSkyShell.mgm",0
VisualRadius=5
ImageAttr=17 //IA_NOCLIP | IA_NOMINPIXELS

SoundScript="LuaScripts/explosions/Flak/air.cfg"
ExplosionPower=0.4
Animation=53700
LiveTime=28
AnimationTime=3
Ranges=4,0.01,0.24,0.25

Radius=25
Pressure=1400 // давление на расстоянии 1 метр
TNT_equ=2
// Фугасное воздействие, общей цифрой
ArmorFoug1=3,-1, 10,100, 5,1000, 0,2000
ArmorFoug2=5,-1, 5,300, 0,1000
ArmorFoug3=10,-1, 0,300
ArmorFoug4=15,-1, 0,0
// Осколочное воздействие
ShrapnelQuantity=1500
// И для каждого осколка просуммируется
ArmorShr1=5,-1, 5,10, 0,30
ArmorShr2=10,-1, 5,5, 0,20
ArmorShr3=25,-1, 0,10

Class_name = "CBatchExplosion"
object_name = "Explosion"

////// PhysicsBody properties
VisualImage=0,"graphics\effects\Arm\explosionSkyShell.mgm",0
VisualRadius=5
ImageAttr=17 //IA_NOCLIP | IA_NOMINPIXELS

SoundScript="LuaScripts/explosions/Flak/air.cfg"
ExplosionPower=0.8
Animation=53700
LiveTime=28
AnimationTime=3
Ranges=4,0.01,0.24,0.25

Radius=35
Pressure=2000 // давление на расстоянии 1 метр
TNT_equ=4
// Фугасное воздействие, общей цифрой
ArmorFoug1=3,-1, 10,200, 5,2000, 0,4000
ArmorFoug2=5,-1, 5,600, 0,2000
ArmorFoug3=10,-1, 0,600
ArmorFoug4=15,-1, 0,0
// Осколочное воздействие
ShrapnelQuantity=1500
// И для каждого осколка просуммируется
ArmorShr1=5,-1, 5,10, 0,30
ArmorShr2=10,-1, 5,5, 0,20
ArmorShr3=25,-1, 0,10

The comments don't seem very enlightening.
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