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A few words about Synchronizers and Version 1.026


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109 replies to this topic

#41 HippyDruid

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 09:09

Having one reload key for all guns now certainly is a very nice convenience.
Ahh, this is good news, I was wondering about that.
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#42 I/JG53_Kurtz

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 09:12

Great Explanation, thanks Jason! I'm with you about the choice of the Spandau's rate of fire, surely the pilots preferred high rates and the overheating was not a problem for in front arial guns! 450rpm would be really too low and unbalanced… :S!:
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#43 Josh_Echo

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 09:19

This is way cool. This entire gun mechanics thing is the single most important realism improvement I've seen in my time with R.o.F.
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#44 Feathered_IV

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 09:35

A beautifully presented and very informative article. Worthy of inclusion in the RoF manual I'd say!

One question, can the reloads be done successfully in any attitude of flight? I'm wondering if players can loop roll and spin while the animation takes place, or if they need to straighten out and engage auto-level or some such.
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#45 Stratostorm

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:01

Thank you Jason and team for your unwavering support and attention to detail!!!!
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#46 Der_Sevtl

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:12

Very informative. Thank you, sir!
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#47 Stratostorm

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:17

This is way cool. This entire gun mechanics thing is the single most important realism improvement I've seen in my time with R.o.F.

Agreed!… But the big one for me will be the Channel Map!!! :D
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#48 Rots5

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:26

I've been holding back my excitement of these weapon mods for some time as we have been short on money… however, things are a little bit better now and after reading this I just went and purchased them all.

Thanks 777 for giving my wife more fuel against me in our future arguments! :D
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#49 w00dy85

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:49

Great read and thank you to everyone who has worked on it, looks like I will be buying some weapon mods today.

Now I just want the Channel map, I think the Handley Page will be great for anti shipping with the davis gun. :D
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#50 von_Semmel

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:51

"Semmler"

that will be the best one :P :mrgreen:
:lol: :x :lol: :x :lol: :x :lol:
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#51 Finkeren

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:52

I've got one word for you: Ohmygodthisisgonnabeawesome!!!! :D this combined with the DM and dispersion corrections is going to make RoF even greater.

This level of detail and research sets the bar very high for other developers to compete.
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#52 enrichingtrash

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:53

Wow what an update congrats ! I can't wait!

The 650 does seem I little high to my sense of historical accuracy… but I'm secretly looking forward to the sound of my DVII letting rip!!

I predict cranky posts with scanned pages from archives with sections underlined in red…
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#53 SYN_Vander

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:59

Wow what an update congrats ! I can't wait!

The 650 does seem I little high to my sense of historical accuracy… but I'm secretly looking forward to the sound of my DVII letting rip!!

I predict cranky posts with scanned pages from archives with sections underlined in red…

LOL, me too!

The plus side is that we get to learn a lot more about WW1 aerial combat. All the arguing on the forums is usually very informative! :)

What surprises me is that I can't really remember firing rates being discussed at all the WW1 books I have read so far. At least not in the memoirs of the pilots themselves, but maybe I'm wrong. Yet it seems pretty important!
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#54 LukeFF

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:08

BTW, here is the text from Engels in German noting the 650rpm of the Spandaus:

"Das L.M.G. 08/15 erreicht bei einer Schussfrequenz von 650/Min. (10,8/Sek.) eine Leistung von ca. 150 PS bei einem Gewicht von 11 kg. Das Gros dieser Leistung wird in Wärme umgewandelt und vom Lauf aufgenommen."
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#55 von_Semmel

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:13

BTW, here is the text from Engels in German noting the 650rpm of the Spandaus:

"Das L.M.G. 08/15 erreicht bei einer Schussfrequenz von 650/Min. (10,8/Sek.) eine Leistung von ca. 150 PS bei einem Gewicht von 11 kg. Das Gros dieser Leistung wird in Wärme umgewandelt und vom Lauf aufgenommen."

–> the LMG 08/15(means "default") reaches a shooting frequency of 650/min. (10,8/Sec.) and an output of 150 horsepower at an weight of 11 Kg. The bulk of the output will be converted into thermal energy, accepted by the barrel.
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#56 WW1EAF_Paf

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:23

–> the LMG 08/15(means "default")
No, in this case its the designation of the gun. The meaning of "default" derived from this designation ;)

Image

And the well known aircraft version ;)
Image
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#57 Finkeren

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:25

Normally I'm not in favor of prioritising "game balance" over historical accuracy, but with Entente guns reaching up to 800 rpm, the 450 rpm figure would create such a disparity, that I'm willing to accept the 650 rpm, as long as it's at least historically defensible.
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#58 von_Semmel

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:26

–> the LMG 08/15(means "default")
No, in this case its gun. The meaning of "default" derived from this designation.
Image

:lol: really? sorry then :?
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#59 enrichingtrash

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:26

Maybe one day in the future was can adjust rate of fire and convergence in the hanger before take off.
We could choose a lethal rate of rate with many stoppages or a slower rate of fire with higher reliability.

A week ago I knew nothing about gun synchronizers… this has been a fascinating learning experience for me.
Next week we'll all be fine tuning our throttles to achieve maximum rate of fire. No wonder they had the throttle on the stick.
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#60 Finkeren

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:35

Maybe one day in the future was can adjust rate of fire and convergence in the hanger before take off.
We could choose a lethal rate of rate with many stoppages or a slower rate of fire with higher reliability.

This would be great in the future. For now I think they've struck a good compromise, that shouldn't piss off too many people.
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#61 WF2

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:36

Comment to the first page write-up.

The first was called an "Interrupter" system set up by Fokker, that had the cam and rod mechanism with just interrupted the firing pin when the trigger was pulled, it was not a Synchronizer. The "Synchronize" systems were after that.
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#62 Hubert

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:36

Hi….

Well done on the working synchronizers, Fantastic !!

However the firing rates of some of the gun types do seem a bit off.

Jason posted about the Spandaus being adjustable in rate of fire from 0-700 RPM.
I'm assuming this comes from the fusee spring cover scale on German Maxims including the LMG 08/15. The scale is marked from 0-70 in increments, these reference numbers are to enable the gunner to set the correct spring tension to give reliable functioning of the gun under different conditions (variations in ammunition, variations in atmospheric conditions, maintenence issues, clean gun dirty gun etc) These are reference numbers for the gunners and not a fully adjustable 0-700 RPM scale, mechanical guns simply do not work this way, electrically powered guns yes, mechanical no. Only small changes in a guns rate of fire can be obtained by adjusting the fusee/return spring tension alone.
Vickers guns had no such scale, so the gunners used a spring balance to set the correct fusee spring tension.

Lewis MKI ground guns and MKI "Stripped guns" 550 RPM sounds correct.

Lewis MKII and MKIII Air Service guns had the "SU" (Speeded Up modification) 700 RPM.

Vickers MKI* with booster, i've always seen as quoted 800-900 RPM.


Please do not think that i'm critisising this wonderful sim, because I am not. And if this has been done for balance, then fair enough.

I'm very much looking forwards to 1.026.

Many thanks to 777 and all their hard work.

Best Regards. Hub.
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#63 hq_Jorri

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:39

Lewis MKII and MKIII Air Service guns had the "SU" (Speeded Up modification) 700 RPM.

Hi Hubert, that's interesting, do you know what planes this would have been used on?
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#64 LukeFF

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:44

And if this has been done for balance, then fair enough.

It wasn't. That is, unless you think Engels was mistaken in what he wrote.
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#65 ZaltysZ

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:48

It will be 650 rpm only in the best case scenario (when RPM are right). On average, you should get something like 550 rpm in ordinary dogfight, and that rate is not that high when compared to pre 1.026 rate, so there won't be any magic "ripper".
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#66 Murilo_Specht

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:51

Loved the explanation, the rate of fire for the Spandaus was my biggest doubt, but now I know what the rate of fire will be and I must say I am quite satisfied with it.
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#67 Hubert

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 11:53

Hi Jorri…

Well MKI "Stripped" guns were the first attempts to lighten the lewis in the air, and started out as unit modifications and the amount and type of stripping seems to vary lot, although there was a RNAS stripped pattern. So these MKI "Stripped" guns would be on early planes like the Nieuport 11 in game, but i've seen pics of them on most 1915 and 1916 planes like Nieuport 10,11,12 on FE8, BE2c etc.

In game we have the MKII Lewis on :- DH2, RE8, DH4, SE5a

In game we have the MKIII Lewis on:- Bristol's, HP 0/400

Best Regards Hub.
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#68 gavagai

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 12:03

I appreciate the time put into explaining the nuts and bolts. Thank you!
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#69 Dobby2

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 12:21

The mounting of the tachometer (eg. Alb D3) with the best rpm/gun cadence in the top position (ca. 1280 rpm) would also suggest a rate of fire in the area of 640-650.
A rof of 450 on the other hand would work best at either 900 or 1350 rpm.

Just my 2 cents…

Spandaus are set to 650 for the following reasons. They could be adjusted from anywhere from 0 to 700 rpm.

1. Our research indicates that the rate varied so we had to make a compromise.

2. We decided that a German pilot in WWI would probably want a higher rate of fire to boost leathality in combat. And considering sustained bursts at that rate was probably a bit rare in aerial combat, barrel damage and wear caused by a high rate of fire was less a factor on airplanes, compared to a machine gunner in the trenches with possibly thousands of rounds fired in a battle over a sustained period. Barrel wear and fatigue was probably more of factor for him so a rate of 450 made more sense.

3. We cannot offer a choice due to technical reasons in the engine to German pilots so we decided not to handicap them and give them a pretty high rate so they could compete with their Entente opponents which clearly had a fast rate of fire.

With the new synchronizers, you don't always fire at the same rate in combat due to engine RPM, so we think the 650 figure really isn't going to be that big if an issue because sometimes your rate can be much lower than that on both sides depending on what your engine is doing. Remember this is just max rpm, not constant rpm.

If you don't like this decision, I am sorry, but we have to make compromises sometimes and this seemed like a logical choice given the circumstances.

Jason

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#70 dirk

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 13:30

Fascinating article, informing and clearing a lot of misconceptions. Interestingly, on most WW2 planes the guns were placed outside the propellor arc, so that no synchronising was needed. Perhaps this was because it was possible to do so, with the much thicker wing sections used, and the greater strength offered by all metal construction (in most cases). Once again, many thanks to the team for offering such wonderful detail to enhance our enjoyment of this sim.
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#71 =FB=VikS

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 13:57

Lewis MKI ground guns and MKI "Stripped guns" 550 RPM sounds correct.

Lewis MKII and MKIII Air Service guns had the "SU" (Speeded Up modification) 700 RPM.

Is there any source about Mk.II where able to put 700 rpm?
As both, Williams and Woodman havent mentions it about Mk.II (mostly weight and cooling issues), its only about Mk.III - which had 700rpm.
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#72 arjisme

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 14:24

Spandaus are set to 650 for the following reasons. They could be adjusted from anywhere from 0 to 700 rpm.

1. Our research indicates that the rate varied so we had to make a compromise.

2. We decided that a German pilot in WWI would probably want a higher rate of fire to boost leathality in combat. And considering sustained bursts at that rate was probably a bit rare in aerial combat, barrel damage and wear caused by a high rate of fire was less a factor on airplanes, compared to a machine gunner in the trenches with possibly thousands of rounds fired in a battle over a sustained period. Barrel wear and fatigue was probably more of factor for him so a rate of 450 made more sense.

3. We cannot offer a choice due to technical reasons in the engine to German pilots so we decided not to handicap them and give them a pretty high rate so they could compete with their Entente opponents which clearly had a fast rate of fire.

With the new synchronizers, you don't always fire at the same rate in combat due to engine RPM, so we think the 650 figure really isn't going to be that big if an issue because sometimes your rate can be much lower than that on both sides depending on what your engine is doing. Remember this is just max rpm, not constant rpm.

If you don't like this decision, I am sorry, but we have to make compromises sometimes and this seemed like a logical choice given the circumstances.

Jason
Jason, whether people agree with the team or not on the decisions made, thanks for such a direct and detailed explanation of the thinking behind your choices. This is much appreciated.

Personally, I don't like the fixed higher rate of the Spandaus, but I also understand that compromises sometimes have to be made.

And, regardless, this looks like an outstanding update. Thanks to the devs for their hard work on this!

:S!:
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#73 arjisme

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 14:32

And if this has been done for balance, then fair enough.

It wasn't. That is, unless you think Engels was mistaken in what he wrote.

Per Jason's explanation (see his point #3), yes play balance was a factor in the decision.

The thinking I understood that went into the Central decision to set Spandaus to 450 was it increased reliability of the operation of the guns. While it was true they could fire at a higher rate, they rated reliability higher than max volume of fire. If RoF had true gun jams, this could be a factor to weigh if we should get a choice (in some future update) to set rate of fire of Spandaus.
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#74 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 15:07

This is great news and really good research thanks guys!

Arthur Gould Lee on German rate of fire:

AGL Interupter gear rate of fire.jpg
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#75 huntertastic

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 16:00

all i need are my twin spandaus :x :x :x :x :x … thanks for all your hard work and dedication 777, very much appreciated :S!:
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#76 DocHoliday96

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 16:50

This is just going to make the Rise of Flight even better, this is the best WWI simulator i have ever played thank you 777 Studios.
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#77 Hubert

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 17:15

Hi Viks..

Sorry my original post should have read "MKII* and MKIII" Lewis guns, Apologies for the mistake.

Its mentioned in in Woodmans Early Aircraft Amrament page 39, although it mentions MKII* modifications to increase the rate of fire. But you are quite correct in the fact that it only mentions 700 RPM specifically in relation to the MKIII.

I have many books and Training manuals on the Lewis, so I'll dig them out and go through them and send you what I find.


I've updated to 1.026 and i have to say its very nice indeed. Also the fact that the lewis gun now fires correctly from an open bolt is fantastic and the fact that you can see when the ammunition in the magazine has been expended, well it gives you so much info at a quick glance.

And finally A Big Thankyou to all that were involved in this update. S!!

Best Regards Hub.
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#78 arjisme

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 18:27

Also the fact that the lewis gun now fires correctly from an open bolt is fantastic
What exactly does this mean? How does it affect/impact using and firing the gun in the game?
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#79 Murilo_Specht

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 18:45

Also the fact that the lewis gun now fires correctly from an open bolt is fantastic
What exactly does this mean? How does it affect/impact using and firing the gun in the game?

I haven't tested the patch yet, but the open bolt firing mechanism makes it less rhythmic, the pause between each fire is not always the same.
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#80 =FB=VikS

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 21:37

I have many books and Training manuals on the Lewis, so I'll dig them out and go through them and send you what I find.

rgr, thanks!


I've updated to 1.026 and i have to say its very nice indeed. Also the fact that the lewis gun now fires correctly from an open bolt is fantastic and the fact that you can see when the ammunition in the magazine has been expended, well it gives you so much info at a quick glance.

And finally A Big Thankyou to all that were involved in this update. S!!

Best Regards Hub.

ya welcome! ;)
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