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Making rails, roads, and trenches. It works.


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#201 Waxworks

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:08

A couple of areas on the existing map which could use work are the Ypres area, where the mud should extend right up to the destroyed city, and the Lens area, where the city was surrounded by open cast mines. Neither of these sectors are very convincingly portrayed as it is.

It is unhappy that this thread seems to have stalled, especially after Jason promised support for a further terrain restructure. Has there been any more work on railheads or the Hindenburg Line?
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#202 J.j.

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:18

I think there was a "redeployment" of the work charge to construction of static object using the "new SDK".
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#203 AnKor85

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:00

One problem is that while I have enough technical knowledge to help with various modding projects for ROF, I just don't have enough time for all of them.
However, take a look at this excellent thread: Project - Roucourt
I have helped its author with texture tile and trees placement info and as you can see he managed to make a nice village rather quickly and (almost) without special tools.
Actually I can also help him with making new roads for it, it is not that hard actually, but it just doesn't worth the effort for one village mostly because road data are not modular and you'll have to update >100 Mb of game files just to add a new small road.
Or I can help with changing the heightmap to level the terrain on new airfield - it is much easier than adding roads, but since 1.027 ROF doesn't allow modified heightmaps (a new DRM restriction introduced for Channel map), so any terrain mod must be approved by devs. And it just doesn't worth the hassle for one airfield.

So… what I'm trying to tell: if you want to add something new just start with smaller standalone projects like Roucourt above, and when there will be enough of these projects to justify some global changes - I'll help with putting everything together.
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#204 ParachuteProne

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 13:28

One problem is that while I have enough technical knowledge to help with various modding projects for ROF, I just don't have enough time for all of them.
However, take a look at this excellent thread: Project - Roucourt
I have helped its author with texture tile and trees placement info and as you can see he managed to make a nice village rather quickly and (almost) without special tools.
Actually I can also help him with making new roads for it, it is not that hard actually, but it just doesn't worth the effort for one village mostly because road data are not modular and you'll have to update >100 Mb of game files just to add a new small road.
Or I can help with changing the heightmap to level the terrain on new airfield - it is much easier than adding roads, but since 1.027 ROF doesn't allow modified heightmaps (a new DRM restriction introduced for Channel map), so any terrain mod must be approved by devs. And it just doesn't worth the hassle for one airfield.

So… what I'm trying to tell: if you want to add something new just start with smaller standalone projects like Roucourt above, and when there will be enough of these projects to justify some global changes - I'll help with putting everything together.


Just wondering if you still planning on doing the mission editor in the future ?

Mark
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#205 AnKor85

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 14:25

Ah… the mission editor.
I haven't talked about it for a long time as I was busy with other ROF related stuff, but nonetheless I continued to work on it in the meantime. Still I don't have anything useful to show yet.

To be honest it seems I am running out of enthusiasm and I doubt I'll be able to make it. However I see really good progress by Pat Wilson with his campaign generator and I think it will eventually evolve into simplified mission editor.

So… I didn't abandon the idea, but you'd better not wait for me to make it.

The same applies to mapping tools. I've made a lot of research and everything I wanted to make seems to be possible, but I just don't feel like I want to spend any substantial time on this stuff anymore. Perhaps I took too much tasks at one and they exhausted me.
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#206 ParachuteProne

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 14:44

Ah… the mission editor.
I haven't talked about it for a long time as I was busy with other ROF related stuff, but nonetheless I continued to work on it in the meantime. Still I don't have anything useful to show yet.

To be honest it seems I am running out of enthusiasm and I doubt I'll be able to make it. However I see really good progress by Pat Wilson with his campaign generator and I think it will eventually evolve into simplified mission editor.

So… I didn't abandon the idea, but you'd better not wait for me to make it.

The same applies to mapping tools. I've made a lot of research and everything I wanted to make seems to be possible, but I just don't feel like I want to spend any substantial time on this stuff anymore. Perhaps I took too much tasks at one and they exhausted me.


Good to know. Too much of anything is not good :)
Thanks for the info.
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#207 Rama

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 15:34

The same applies to mapping tools. I've made a lot of research and everything I wanted to make seems to be possible, but I just don't feel like I want to spend any substantial time on this stuff anymore. Perhaps I took too much tasks at one and they exhausted me.
I know this feeling…. I have the same from time to time. Third party switch from pleasure to pain when you assign yourself too much work and too short deadlines to complete them.
The hardest thing to do is to define a rythm of activities compatible with the pleasure to do it (not continuous, it becomes inevitably boring).

I hope you'll find this rythm (and the motivation that goes with)… since the work you've done so far for the editor and map tools is fantastic, and will be greatly appreciated when usable. It will open the door for many third party work to create and/or upgrade RoF maps.
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#208 hq_Jorri

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 17:08

Well said, Rama. People like Ankor, yourself, Vander and others are invaluable to Rise of Flight which needs to be said some times!
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#209 ParachuteProne

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 17:53

Well said, Rama. People like Ankor, yourself, Vander and others are invaluable to Rise of Flight which needs to be said some times!

+1
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#210 MarcoRossolini

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 00:06

Well said, Rama. People like Ankor, yourself, Vander and others are invaluable to Rise of Flight which needs to be said some times!

+1

+1
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#211 AnKor85

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 18:54

Thanks guys!
I've just got an idea about road and trench editing that may actually work :)
What we need to edit them them is a vector editor which allows drawing on top of map background. I initially wanted to make one… but now I think - why bother? We already have an official mission editor and it can do both - render map and edit vectors. It is a bit clumsy but may do the job.
My part is to make a special utility that turns road data into .group files for mission editor and then builds roads from edited missions again.

Here is an example of trench lines converted into interconnected icons which can be edited in the mission editor.
Zoomed in:
Attached File  trench editing.jpg   550.53KB   465 downloads
Zoomed out:
Attached File  trench editing 2.jpg   597.95KB   465 downloads

The main problem is that mission editor can't handle too much icons at once and I'll have to split the map into sectors for comfortable editing, but it is not a big deal.

We are on a roll again :)
Any comments?
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#212 WW1EAF_Paf

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 19:06

Any comments?
:D
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#213 Avatar

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 20:09

Well said, Rama. People like Ankor, yourself, Vander and others are invaluable to Rise of Flight which needs to be said some times!


Well said and I whole-heartedly agree!

We are on a roll again :)
Any comments?

Dang! Great work on this mate!! I'm always amazed at those with the know-how with what they do and can come up with. :S!: to you all and thanks.
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#214 Branwell

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 21:22

Thanks guys!
I've just got an idea about road and trench editing that may actually work :)
What we need to edit them them is a vector editor which allows drawing on top of map background. I initially wanted to make one… but now I think - why bother? We already have an official mission editor and it can do both - render map and edit vectors. It is a bit clumsy but may do the job.

Sorry to appear dumb, Ankor, but what does this actually mean? That we (well, someone who knows how to! :oops: ) can move the frontline for a specific mission?
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#215 AnKor85

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:58

Don't worry there are not so many people who understand how ROF maps are made :)

can move the frontline for a specific mission?
In theory - yes, but it is not practical.
Even if you change a small part of the trench or road network you will get 100 Mb of binary files needed to add this change into ROF.
There are not only trenches, but also a mud texture + smoke and explosions which should be moved (though they are much simpler than trenches).
Finally there is a minimap that shows the front line and has to be updated too.
So it is also too much work to move the front *for every mission*.

Much more feasible will be to make several versions of the front, representing various periods of the war. Then mission author will be able to choose one of this versions which fits the mission.
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#216 1PL-Lucas-1Esk

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:38

AnKor,
some time ago I was working on my 50x50 test map of Warsaw area but stopped after having no idea how to build a road and railroad network.
Will be possible to use your idea in the future and try to draw both networks using a 50x50km template together with placing icons ?

I would love to get in touch with you and discuss road/rail placement techniques, but I understand that you are very busy with the projects.
Once we will have that, I was thinking about creating a custom building set up for the map, as well as the ground texture set built from scratch.
In my dreams, that map could be included as a freeware addon some time in the future. I can not release it as a 3rd party mod, each new map has to be connected to the player account by the devs.
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#217 AnKor85

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:12

Lucas,
Yes, it should work perfectly for your map.
I'm really glad you are interested - your 50x50km map is a good start to see how this editing technique works before attempting large scale stuff. I hope Tony will like to try it too with his desert map.

So far everything looks so good I may make the first version of converter tool before the end of the week. I wonder why I didn't get such idea earlier! :)

I have certain progress with ground texture placement utility too, but it is not going to be ready soon.
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#218 1PL-Lucas-1Esk

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 09:28

Thanks for your reply! I am going to make some pack during the week and will send you what I have achieved so far - so you will be able to take a look at it in the ME.
Luckily Viks was kind to build me some additional information files, so the map even shows up in the Quick Mission in mods on.
All the best,
Lucas
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#219 AnKor85

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 17:57

One more teaser image :)
Attached File  editing.jpg   251.06KB   254 downloads

I can edit both kinds of roads and trenches and view results almost in real-time - the map updates when I click 'Apply' in mission properties :)

Not ready for release yet, but soon…
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#220 WW1EAF_Paf

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 18:13

Just wow! :shock:
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#221 MarcoRossolini

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:14

Incredible, damned good show AnKor. :D
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#222 1PL-Lucas-1Esk

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 20:29

Fantastic! Can not wait to try it!
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#223 hq_Jorri

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 00:33

Give the man a medal!
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#224 catchov

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:30

Image
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#225 Waxworks

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 17:19

It still seems a pity that though we have been offered the chance to improve the existing map once more, there is no organised community project to take advantage of this. I have dozens of extra villages from missions I've made already. There seems sufficient interest, but as yet no catalyst?

The Roucourt project made me wonder whether it might not be an improvement to use different underlying textures for villages from the ones we have. The current practice is to use a grey and darker grey to merge in with the roads, which might be more industrial than rural. If instead the roads were left as they were, you could use a green or brown (autumn) texture for the village area, which might seem more realistic. When you compare real life images to the towns and villages we have, the roads are still highlighted when they pass through a village, and the area around houses tends to be gardens rather than concrete.

However we might still use grey textures for any expansion of the rail network. You might not need to put in new buildings around sidings if space was left for them with retexturing. This is something I'd do myself, if I was confident that it wouldn't just go to waste.
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#226 AnKor85

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:13

Waxworks,
if I was confident that it wouldn't just go to waste
This is one of the biggest problems.
I can't easily motivate anyone (including myself) to work on map improvement because there aren't many ways to use the result of such work.

There are several areas where map changes may be used:
1. Career - changes have to be approved by devs to be incorporated into the game. I have no idea on what is needed for such approval or how long we may need to wait for this to happen. Not that I don't believe Jason, I'm just trying to be a realist.

2. Multiplayer - modified maps will work in "mods off", but distribution is pain in the *ss. Built-in downloader is not suitable for this purpose. I thought about it a lot, but I don't see any solution.

3. Singleplayer - how many custom sp missions have you seen recently? Though "Flying Fury" mission set is actually a good example which could benefit from modified font line. But in general we need a better mission editor… oh, wait. I wanted to make one. Maybe someday.

4. PWCG - this is perhaps the only aspect of the game (even being a 3rd party) which can immediately benefit from the modded map. Pat even wants to make squadron locations historical and thus the front line won't match current no-mans land at certain periods.

Imagine making a custom map (using Western Front height data so we don't have to bother with DRM) and then asking Pat to add a bit of code which detects if modified map is installed and if so, use it for his missions.
Now, let's incorporate modified Roucourt into this map.
Then let's add more substrate textures for some villages as you suggest.
Then let's draw Hindenburg line.
And so on… Those who want will download and enjoy the changes. Those who don't will keep using original map as if nothing happened.

Another approach is the one I called non practical on the previous page.
Take a look on "Flying Fury" missions. The area of operations as seen in PDF is about 100x80 km. It is bigger than our small maps (Verdun and Lake), but still quite manageable.
I believe, given the proper tools, it is quite possible and will take a sane amount of time for one man to modify the front line and add some details in that area and then distribute it as a custom map along with campaign. And don't worry about huge size of binaries I mentioned before - there is a workaround.

Well, that's it. I don't know if it motivates anyone though.
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#227 Waxworks

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:36

To be clear, it's not just the addition of more substrate textures that I wanted, but also the replacement of the ones we already have. EAF_Pafs Roucourt is a good example as the roads are retained so that they clearly exist in the village, and the houses are in gardens rather than sat on some industrial texture. It's not hard to do this on a more basic level for other villages, by leaving the roads in and using a different texture for the village area. The grey texture might be left for cities, stations and industry.

The Hindenburg Line, with an expanded rail network, is what I'd like to work on, if it can be organised. I was already going to convert all the villages devastated during the German withdrawal into ruins, as I had done for the Cambrai sector I worked on. It might help if there were a quick guide to substrates and what can be done to modify the rail and trench networks somewhere.
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#228 Branwell

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 19:48

Fantastic work guys :S!:

Just curious though - how long would it take to change the front on the whole map(i.e. in man-hours, to edit the trench waypoints etc)?

Just wondering if it would be possible to maybe have a few different maps that SP/MP mission builders could choose, or the career automatically pick, based on the date of the mission? Obviously the ideal would be something like one for every month (!), but if it takes such an extraordinary effort to do all the waypoint moving (which I suspect it might!), then maybe a different map for every half-year, or maybe each season might be something we could wish for?

The REAL ideal would be to devastate villages that the war would have run through on the 'new' maps as the front moved, but I guess that just adds an awful lot more work?!

I would love to help out on anything like this, but I'm not sure my skills would be up to it?! :(
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#229 Jason_Williams

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:00

Guys,

Let me cut in here. First, I love what you guys are learning to do with our map. Second, I understand what Ankor is saying and he, along with others, has worked hard to make things that everyone can find useful. But yes it is hard to stay motivated if he is the only one doing it as a hobby. It is a lot of work. Third, you guys basically have all the tools you need now to make a "new" map with an altered frontline, new roads and rails, new airfields, new static objects and new textures. Fourth, I am prepared to support the hosting of any truly awesome new modded map, campaign or set of missions that will make users happy. Hosting files of reasonable size is not an issue in my mind. What I need is a marketable, self-contained end-user ready example of all of these tools and skills coming together to form a proof of concept project that everyone can test and enjoy. Finally, please stop wanting to make everything official and have that issue ruin your fun. We have given everyone a great feature in allowing you to use Mods with a single checkbox and switch back to regular mode by un-checking the same box. Don't be afraid to make something that is only for Mods On mode. It's not as big a deal as it seems. And yes, if you make something really awesome that we like and have the time to incorporate maybe we will, but of course I can't make any guarantees.

This is going to sound rude, but I do not mean it to be. Other sim communities have done a lot of work to create new content for other sims WITHOUT any encouragement or support from the owners and they have made some really awesome stuff. We've been pretty responsive on that front compared to others. Why it hasn't taken off in ROF I have no idea and it boggles our minds a bit. I always offer help where I can help and the team likes to see mods being made, that’s why they have created Mods On mode. We also made a super powerful mission editor and yes its complex, but it allows you to do stuff no other sim ME does. I actually want to create a Mods Download section on the website where we can offer popular mods in a semi-official way, but I don't see any effort by the community to organize it and meet us half way. I know nobody likes to work for free, but I can meet you guys in the middle with exposure, support and hosting files. All I need is someone to step up and take charge and put a plan together.

I believe there is plenty of talent and brain power here in the ROF community to make a test subject that uses what tools we have provided and what others have created. My suggestion is for someone to elect themselves team leader and form a small team, call yourselves the “Lost Battalion” or something and set out to make a modified map (based on our current map) with a smallish battlefield area that has improved roads, rails, trench lines, mud location, updated airfields, some new objects, new textures, modified clouds, new villages etc. and release it as a single archive that you just drop into ROF and enjoy. This effort will establish a system of making such things and those that know how to do something can train other volunteers on how to do something and then you can make an assembly line system and expand from there.

That’s my suggestion and I will gladly host anything of substance that gets created and offer support where I can

Some talented guys in this community:

1PL-Lucas-1Esk
Naked Squirrel
Vander
Waxworks
AnKor
Difis
Prangster
LukeFF
Rama

Just to name a few…

And we like to see and meet talented 3rd Parties who can help us. You never know where it may lead.

Jason
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#230 BADMUTHA

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 06:08

Then how about opening up the entire game to modification? You'd see a lot more mods and content if that were the case but it isn't.
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#231 Jason_Williams

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 06:34

RP can it.

Jason
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#232 Feathered_IV

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:28

Then how about opening up the entire game to modification? You'd see a lot more mods and content if that were the case but it isn't.

You have the GTP extractor that gives you access to the entire game.

Thanks Jason that was very well said. I'm not sure why modding hasn't taken off yet either. Perhaps it is an indication of how little dissatisfaction there really is with the sim.
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#233 Jason_Williams

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:50

Then how about opening up the entire game to modification? You'd see a lot more mods and content if that were the case but it isn't.

You have the GTP extractor that gives you access to the entire game.

Thanks Jason that was very well said. I'm not sure why modding hasn't taken off yet either. Perhaps it is an indication of how little dissatisfaction there really is with the sim.

Regardless, I'm doing all I can to help those that want to make something like a modded map and other stuff. We're not against it, but we can't just hand over every internal tool we use or the source code.

Jason
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#234 hoots2

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:40

And red, remember that you are not the only customer, I for one do not want to see a completely modded game, down that road lies some gems but mostly a whole load of crap. It also leads to a further splintering of servers, who has what mod allowed etc. No, I don't want a completely open game.
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#235 BADMUTHA

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:14

Then how about opening up the entire game to modification? You'd see a lot more mods and content if that were the case but it isn't.

You have the GTP extractor that gives you access to the entire game.

Thanks Jason that was very well said. I'm not sure why modding hasn't taken off yet either. Perhaps it is an indication of how little dissatisfaction there really is with the sim.

This allows you to modify things like pilot hit points, weapon accuracy and things of that nature? What about the AI coding?
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#236 gavagai

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 14:48

Then how about opening up the entire game to modification? You'd see a lot more mods and content if that were the case but it isn't.

You have the GTP extractor that gives you access to the entire game.

Thanks Jason that was very well said. I'm not sure why modding hasn't taken off yet either. Perhaps it is an indication of how little dissatisfaction there really is with the sim.

This allows you to modify things like pilot hit points, weapon accuracy and things of that nature? What about the AI coding?

You can make changes to scripts for weapon accuracy and pilot vitality, but in some cases the game does not accept the changes. For example, we tried to increase dispersion before it was finally changed in 1.026, and it would say "you do not own that aircraft" if you tried to test it out. At one point the game would allow you to change pilot or observer vitality, but newer versions do not accept the changed script values. I don't think that's anything intentional from Moscow; mods are not supported and things always change from version to version.

You can mod many things with the GTP extractor, but the more fundamental things are off limits. The moddable AI scripts have limited power to change the AI's behavior. No one has done better than Criquet at improving the AI, but even then, his ability to change things was limited.
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#237 BADMUTHA

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 15:03

Yes that's what I'm talking about Gav, it would be nice if we could play with core game mechanics like pilot health or for example the amount of damage wings can take before falling apart. Just stuff that would make the game interesting and different in ways and allow the community to change things and find what they like the best and play with that; those who are into multiplayer will continue to play mods off like they do now.

And Criquet needs more access to the AI.
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#238 hq_Jorri

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 15:15

Very nice post from Jason! And we have some great guys here giving great efforts…with very good results. But indeed it seems the community could use a few more dedicated and skilled people who can put all the newfound technique and knowledge about modding into practice.

Meaning, Vander is not a highly experienced 2D/3D artist so his efficiency is low, and I'm sure he also has a lot of other projects running at the same time…and the same goes for AnKor who puts a lot of time into research and developing new tools and ways of modding, which means he does not actually have time to make new stuff or new maps!

Maybe Bbob could do some modeling…and 777 already knows Harry, he is a very good 3rd party to work on stuff!
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#239 HotTom

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 18:50

Jorri sure is good and volunteering other people to work for free. :mrgreen:

Seriously, "skill" is the governing factor IMO.

As I've said many times: If we had a more user-friendly Mission Editor, I would gladly devote the time and effort to crank out missions and campaigns. I've done many in other sims.

Fact is, the only people really good at using the VERY complex Mission Editor, and for whom it is intuitive, are guys like Vander and Pat Wilson who are computer gurus. So there is a chokepoint to output.

Same with modeling. It's a skill set I don't have but if someone (777 or a third party) designed a simpler way to create models, I would be glad to spend the time making them.

Being retired, time is one thing I have plenty of. :P

Maybe someday we'd even see a Jorri mission or a Jorri map. :mrgreen:
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#240 hq_Jorri

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 20:03

Maybe someday we'd even see a Jorri mission or a Jorri map. :mrgreen:

I've tried my hand at both, and like yourself, indeed it's to complicated for me….

I'd love to make a small map, though…..or to just edit the Verdun map to something that's as immersive as possible.
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