Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Making rails, roads, and trenches. It works.


  • Please log in to reply
279 replies to this topic

#41 Rama

Rama
  • Posts: 338

Posted 18 May 2012 - 18:16

Sorry I'm relatively new here and don't know you, are you somehow involved in map making for ROF?
Well… as you can see with my post-counter, I don't post often on the forums (and only since recently on the public forums)… so it's not really your fault if you don't know me… ;)
Yes, I'm involved in map making for RoF, with the dev, since end of 2005 (for the actual in-game map) and was "reactivated" by Viks for the Channel map.

Well yes, the map will be useful. Thanks.
Send me a PM with your e-mail and I'll send you what I have.

I see. No, I think I'm not ready yet to pay to be able to work to improve a game that I've paid a lot for
Well… even if I bought some licences for this game (for me and some friends) when it was released, it did cost me much less than the historical maps I used for references.
But of course, it's only a personal choice ;)
  • 0

#42 Waxworks

Waxworks
  • Posts: 630

Posted 18 May 2012 - 22:52

There's possibly a few here this is a depot at Lille

Main index
  • 0

#43 navair2

navair2
  • Posts: 1467
  • LocationIllinois, USA

Posted 18 May 2012 - 23:42

I think now we should collect as much ideas and reference data as possible. Then we will see what can be done and what not.
Yes, and the reference data collect isn't an easy task… and can quickly be quite expensive (believe me…).

The example given is quite nice. doing some "believable" depot rail stations near big towns would be a nice addition.
In order to make more accurate stuff, then the towns should also be made more accurate in size (bigger, most of them are to small), which means that there would be a lot more objects on the map… something that could be a problem to get correct fps…

I'm sure this has probably been said in other topics or by PM, but why not "split" the current Career Mode / SP map in a similar way to what Red Baron 3D did with its limited resources?

Dividing the current map into smaller "sectors" would help to alleviate the resource problem while enabling more ground and air objects in a tighter space…in addition, institute a load screen when going from one sector to another along the Front similar to what Fallout: New Vegas did when they ran into difficulties with their own usage of resources when designing and implementing the city of New Vegas.

At any rate, nice work on the rail yards gentlemen. :S!:
  • 0

Case: Corsair 650D Motherboard: AsRock Z77 Extreme4 PSU: Antec TruePower New 750 Blue CPU: Intel i5-2500K ( Socket 1155 )

CPU Cooler: ZalMan CNPS9500A LED GPU: EVGA GTX 580 MEM: 8 GB G.Skill PC12800 DDR3 1600
Soundcard: Creative SB X-Fi Titanium Monitor: Samsung 2343 BWX 23"@ 2048 x 1152 OS: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit


#44 ChiefRedCloud

ChiefRedCloud
  • Posts: 2850
  • LocationWaleska, Georgia, USA

Posted 19 May 2012 - 00:18

There's possibly a few here this is a depot at Lille

Main index

Attached Files


  • 0

G5fCmYF.png

NEW WINGS VIRTUAL FLIGHT TRAINING

"Hardcore Through Passion"


#45 Jason_Williams

Jason_Williams
  • Producer
  • Posts: 3467
  • LocationLas Vegas, NV USA

Posted 19 May 2012 - 01:00

Very nice AnKor and Difis.

I suggest Vander, AnKor and Difis (or others) work together and send me a plan to add more stuff to the map like improved train stations, factories and other points of interest etc. and we can add into the game permanently like we have done before with Vander's vilages etc. Pooling resources and talking to Rama who knows our system quite well can probably produce some stellar results.

I don't mind paying for quality work, but some coordination by a serious team is needed.

Edit: Sorry let me be more clear. A team does the work and we import into the game as permanent like we did with Vander's previous work.

Edit 2: Splitting the map into smaller ones cannot work.

Edit 3: Do not make anything larger than what you already see in ROF or you will run into problems.

Jason
  • 0

#46 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
  • Posts: 10329

Posted 19 May 2012 - 01:04

I think it's possible to use google earth to find the exact right place for big cities railroad stations, and match the ROF map.

As example, here is a picture of Nancy station in 1917:

Attached File  Gare Nancy 1917.jpg   254.73KB   448 downloads

With google earth, we can see the actual station is exactly at the same place, and even some 1917 buildings (red arrow pointing) and bridges/streets are still here!

Attached File  Gare Nancy.jpg   471.64KB   447 downloads

Then, it would be possible to match the right place for giving ROF Nancy a new big railroad station, in regard of the river position for instance (things that didn't mouve since 1917):

Attached File  Position gare Nancy.jpg   597.96KB   447 downloads

:P
  • 0

#47 O_WolfPac

O_WolfPac
  • Posts: 1294

Posted 19 May 2012 - 02:45

Thank you Ankor85 for the pm heads up on this topic :)
Im sorry i have not been on the forums much , been busy and since talking to you last,,, things have got a little crazy in real life events.
I have built a full size Hurricane ww2 RAF Fighter plane :) Great Fun :)
Find below a post on my website called

The Story of the Hurriane
http://www.oceanicwi...hp?topic=1072.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.oceanicwi...om/Forum/Main/i … pic=1072.0

Ankor WOW this is what i have been waiting for and getting frustrated with for so long…Please i would like to know how the place ment is done for roads and railway

Will cars follow the road
Do you have same issue with roads as you see with train


DifiS You are a legend i really like texture and life you bring

I do have questions ,,, many of them

Please i would like to learn how to place 2 roads ,and so i understand how the 2 roads CROSS over X Junction
Please i would like to learn to do same with Railway lines
I realise Trench line is Multiple times more harder because of grid partern

Excellent News

DiFiS
And
AnKor85

Guru's and very Welcome


I would also like to ADD items

1. Building ,basic 4 wall and roof building, i can make mgm file but not .col file, i know txt file is needed to be present but .col file is not made , maybe DiFiS can answer but my Russian is aweful and i wish i could climb the barricade of languages but bad education tawns me

2. Add Bush / Shrub again .Col file halts us , Mgm file made

3. Add Palm Tree , but this i believe is same as Bush or Shrub high plant only col file altitude is different as billboards are larger

4. Add Trench line 3D
( Object that sits ontop of trench texture hidding the standard texture that has Raised Ground with proper trenchline and soldiers within trench , maybe animated basic movement )

5. this question is more to the mapmaker guru's 10 x 10 tile cards = 100 base textures , I would like to TEST and make 20x20 tiles and 40 x 40 tiles and 50 x 50 tiles to SEE how much CPU it holds in usage of rendering large base textures.
Maybe DiFis or Rama or Taleks2 can answer and save us time testing.
The reason for Larger tile cards than 10x10 is the repaeting texture limits the deatil that can be added to the base layers , imagine DifiS textures on the base layer tiles and then NEW substrate textures ontop to add greater detail 10x10 tiles on say verdun map reparts around 42 times so verdun map 5x5DF is actually around 4200 tiles in total ( roughly )
If we have 65 x 65 tile base carpet ,,, this would be around the same size as the verdun map but every tile would be original and every tile could be unique and decoration added to the unique places ,,,, trench lines could be added EASY and offroad car / truck , tank tracks in ground , old craters in green grass near no-mans-land ,,,, DiFiS footpaths and Village Gardens and pathways , roadside paths can be added , muddy and dry paths to trench lines , snow drifts or River Crossings , imagination and Decoration Starts at Base tile Carpet and built upward with DiFiS textured alive substrate compliments.



Granted first step is Road and Rail , but No.1 is next goal


Best Regards
Tony
  • 0

#48 O_WolfPac

O_WolfPac
  • Posts: 1294

Posted 19 May 2012 - 05:42

I feel like i am going to School for first time :)

Willing Student awaiting The Teachers

Roads & Railway Subject Lesson please !
We can re-texture the roads and landscape , even trees (Need Lesson for later ,is Adding tree ) Col. files
Image

BUT !

We can not control the Roads :)

Image


I realise you all live the other side of the World from us Oceanic's , but i close my eyes and concentrate very hard with Telepathy ….two words…

Wake Up !

:)
  • 0

#49 catchov

catchov
  • Posts: 3986

Posted 19 May 2012 - 05:50

Ah I see. Rama is working on the channel map. :) What a great opportunity to put this great discovery by AnKor and Difis to good use on both sides of the channel. :D Splendid stuff gentlemen!
  • 0

#50 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
  • Posts: 10329

Posted 19 May 2012 - 06:20

Image

Is that a ROF winter main road you made?? :o

If so, it has to be include!! Looks a real one :D
  • 0

#51 O_WolfPac

O_WolfPac
  • Posts: 1294

Posted 19 May 2012 - 06:25

Fife :)

We re-textured the Verdun small map to Desert and then re-textured road to sand/muddy gravel roads ,Railway to more correct desert railway ground textures,,, but the Trees we hate = look wrong :)
so stopped working on the maps and wait for 777 free time on how to ADD palm tree and bush / shrubs to make map more like desert terrain, we even made mini maps
  • 0

#52 AnKor85

AnKor85
  • Posts: 1002

Posted 19 May 2012 - 06:55

I'll post how I made that railway station. The problem is while the workflow is not really difficult, it is very convoluted and includes a lot of obscure steps. In fact the full workflow involves using some developer-provided tools which are documented only in Russian, and I'm going to skip those steps, because I'm not fully understand them. If only I had enough time I could make a better map making tools but my main project here is a mission editor and I don't want to hamper its progress anymore (it is already taking way too long).

First of all, we need to get roadssystem.ini file for the map we are going to mod. If we are speaking about the main map then it will be in graphics3.gtp archive.
Now, that ini file contains following lines:
RailRoads_SAVE_LOAD_MODE=2
HighWays_SAVE_LOAD_MODE=2
Trenchs_SAVE_LOAD_MODE=2
Guess what? Value 2 means - "load", 0 means - "ignore", and finally 1 means - SAVE! The game (and mission editor) actually contain built-in road generator that will create all necessary binaries on first load. Amazing. And I already found that two months ago, but there is a some quirks that prevented me from getting any meaningful results.

First of all at the most important!
If you are made a new map like LANDSCAPE_Railways and even specify its path in roadssystem.ini
BinaryPath=graphics\Landscape_Railways\Roads\Binary
IT JUST WON'T WORK! You'll get empty binary files.
I this is what I didn't know two months ago. Only recently (thanks to DiFiS and Viks) I have learned that binary generation works only for the main LANDSCAPE folder.
So. To avoid ruining the main map, you should do the following:
1. Make a backup copy of your LANDSCAPE\Roads folder in the game directory
2. Delete all .bin files inside LANDSCAPE\Roads and LANDSCAPE\Roads\Binary. But don't delete the folders! And you will have to delete those .bin files each time you want to generate new road data.
3. Enable modifications in the game launcher. You will need it to let the game read your new .ini files.
4. Copy your roadssystem.ini into LANDSCAPE\Roads\ (make sure it contains a line BinaryPath=graphics\Landscape\Roads\Binary )
5. Copy your source ini files (i.e. roads.ini, railroads.ini and trenchs.ini) into LANDSCAPE\Roads
6. Launch the game or mission editor for any mission that uses the main map.

Depending on the complexity of the road data it may take some minutes to build them. On my i7 860 rebuilding the whole roads, rails and trenches for original main map took about 15 minutes (I didn't counted).

I have attached an example for my railyard that has prepared ini files for steps 4 and 5. It doesn't contain road or trench data and binaries should be automatically built.
Coordinates of the railyard on the main map is 31600,3200 (scroll up from the bottom-left corner).

One more thing to note. Roadssystem.ini has following lines:
HighWaysIni=Roads.ini
RailRoadsIni=RailRoads.ini
TrenchsIni=Trenchs.ini
These are names of source files from which binaries will be built. However, original ini files (that can be found in gtp archives) are called "roadswbridge.ini" and "railroadswbridge.ini" (I'll tell you later why), while trenches are correct. So if you want to try and rebuild original ones you need to make sure that names of your source files actually match the ones referenced in roadssystem.ini.

Attached Files


  • 0

#53 AnKor85

AnKor85
  • Posts: 1002

Posted 19 May 2012 - 06:59

After you have built the binaries (they are found both in Landscape\Roads and Landscape\Roads\Binary) you can place them in any map folder, all you need to use them is a correct BinaryPath in your roadssystem.ini
BinaryPath=graphics\Landscape_Railways\Roads\Binary
For comparison here is a new map with already processed railyard binaries that can be used mods off:
Attached File  LANDSCAPE_Railways.zip   22.86KB   26 downloads

I have yet to tell how source ini files are edited.
  • 0

#54 O_WolfPac

O_WolfPac
  • Posts: 1294

Posted 19 May 2012 - 07:18

OK so must use Landscape as foundation for new roads , but once madethese files can be transported to new maps and work correctly

Ankor how do you control the location of placement
1,10000 115,10000 120,10000 140,10000 400,10000
120,10000 122,10000.5 138,10000.5 140,10000
122,10000.5 124,10001, 136,10001 138,10000.5
115,10000 117,9999 130,9999

How is this understood = source :)


Amazing its been under my nose all this time :D
i feel shamed, i have not noticed it only used landscape folder :P
  • 0

#55 AnKor85

AnKor85
  • Posts: 1002

Posted 19 May 2012 - 07:27

Intended workflow for authoring ini files is again quite convoluted.

They should be edited in SVG format, exported using a special script into .ini files, these ini files are them processed with special utilities that generates proper crossroads and bridges (for those places where roads intersect rivers). Well, as I said the process is documented only in Russian and actually is not something that I want to use or translate.

In fact, you don't need any scripts and special utilities, if you do everything carefully.
SVG format is actually a XML based one, which means that it is just a plain text with vector definitions.
Game ini files are also a plain text with coordinate pairs. And you know what - you can just copy-paste that text data from SVG into INI.

I'm not good at SVG tools (I don't even know them, is it Adobe Illustrator? Corel Draw? something free, perhaps?). But I'll try to describe the process as I understand it.

Roadsystems.ini contain following lines
Map_Width=14336.0
Map_Height=11264.0
Map_ScaleFactor=25.0
That is for main map. And this is for Verdun:
Map_Width=1024.0
Map_Height=1024.0
Map_ScaleFactor=50.0

This means that for Verdun you'll have to create a 1024*1024 vector drawing where each unit is 50 meters. For main map the scale is 25 meters per unit.

Then you draw roads/railways and trenches (in different files of course) using something called "polyline", i.e. a line with many vertices.
As I was told, though haven't verified, intersections must be done only where a vertex is present in both polylines. Example: let's make a cross.
Coordinates for first polyline:
2,5 7,5 9,5 – this is a horizontal line starting from 2 running to 9 and 5 units from the top. Ingame for Verdun map it will have a length of (9-2)=7*50=350m and will be placed 5*50=250 meters from the top of the map. The vertex 7,5 would be unnecessary if we wanted just a line, but since we are going to make a cross it is needed as a coordinate for cross road. So the second polyline will be vertical:
7,3 7,5 7,8 – runs vertically 7 units (350m) from the left side of the map. Will cross the first road and point (7,5).

By the way the game automatically produces routing info – trains were able to use sidings a my mission built on top of railways map.
However, there's one small glitch with trains (I don't know if it applies to vehicles and roads too) – the game automatically places and aligns them to the nearest railroad even if you missed a bit in mission editor. However, in the railyard sidinds example tracks are pretty close and the game may confuse one for another - that's how DiFiS unintentionally got two engines on the same track. I have yet to research how to counter the problem.

So, I was speaking about coordinates, but again how to extract them from SVG?
This is a part of SVG file:
…cut…
<polyline …cut… points="0,133.854 33.287,130.854 …cut… 1017.287,350.854 1024,353.479 "/>
<polyline …cut… points="254.954,0 258.287,2.855 …cut… 276.754,164.025 274.455,168.688 "/>
…cut…
You see the points="…" are actually stored in exactly the same format as ini files.
Each polyline should be stored as new text line for ini file.
Of course, copy-pasting them manually is a stupid waste of time and that's why I'm going to make an utility that at least allows to convert ini to svg and back again.

Also bridges require a bit of tricky approach. I have yet to verify everything. But again - I'll better make a tool that auto processes everything rather than describe workarounds in my bad English :)

i feel shamed, i have not noticed it only used landscape folder
Yep, the same feeling. And I have asked Viks on Sukhoi forums, but I was asking a wrong question. That's why I say big thanks to DiFiS as he knows what to ask devs for :)

how do you control the location of placement
Hope this post answers your question.
With a 25m/unit scale of the main map the following line
1,10000 115,10000 120,10000 140,10000 400,10000
translates to (measured from the top-left corner):
from 25m,25*10000m to 115*25m,250000m to 120*25m,250000 etc

Note that coordinates you see in mission editor use different origin - they are measured from bottom-left corner and instead of X,Y use Z,X notation where the first coordinate is vertical. Quite confusing at first.

PS: I've started to read your post about Hurricane, amazing job there! :)
  • 0

#56 O_WolfPac

O_WolfPac
  • Posts: 1294

Posted 19 May 2012 - 07:45

you have popped my thoughtz and eyes

WoW

I have to try this :)

By the way , your English is excellant !
Never dout this fact ~!~

DiFiS and Viks Amazing :)
I wish them the very Best Vodka !

Ankor85 Thank you I may hit brain fade or brick wall , i will test out roads and see what vehicles do under testing , but this post is golden and Guru status

Well Done !

Best Regards
Tony
  • 0

#57 Waxworks

Waxworks
  • Posts: 630

Posted 19 May 2012 - 08:51

If there is going to be another map upgrade, would it be possible to have towns near the front like Ypres as ruined rather than in almost pristine condition? Is there any extra performance hit from ruins?
  • 0

#58 SYN_Vander

SYN_Vander
  • Tester
  • Posts: 4709

Posted 19 May 2012 - 09:04

To Waxworx: No, there is no fps hit and you can easily destroy buildings in the mission editor, by changing the damage groups. So you may destroy Ypres yourself :)
One "problem" though, there are several special objects such as the Ypres Cloth Hall, the Cathedrals etc.. they have no damage model!
  • 0

#59 SYN_Vander

SYN_Vander
  • Tester
  • Posts: 4709

Posted 19 May 2012 - 09:07

About the rail yard add-on. I think this will be great to have. But be pragmatic about it. Getting all this done 100% historically correct will a) take so much time that it will never be completed b) not possible anyway given the limitations in 3d objects, number of textures we can use etc.
  • 0

#60 Rama

Rama
  • Posts: 338

Posted 19 May 2012 - 09:38

Then you draw roads/railways and trenches (in different files of course) using something called "polyline", i.e. a line with many vertices.
As I was told, though haven't verified, intersections must be done only where a vertex is present in both polylines. Example: let's make a cross.
Coordinates for first polyline:
2,5 7,5 9,5 – this is a horizontal line starting from 2 running to 9 and 5 units from the top. Ingame for Verdun map it will have a length of (9-2)=7*50=350m and will be placed 5*50=250 meters from the top of the map. The vertex 7,5 would be unnecessary if we wanted just a line, but since we are going to make a cross it is needed as a coordinate for cross road. So the second polyline will be vertical:
7,3 7,5 7,8 – runs vertically 7 units (350m) from the left side of the map. Will cross the first road and point (7,5).
It doesn't work exactly that way.
For the crossroad generator to work without problems, each polyline should start from a crossroad (or a single point) and end in a crossroad (or a single point). A polyline shouldn't cross another. And the coordinates of the polyline end points on a crossroad should be exactlythe sames.
Also when 2 lines are ending on the same crossroad, the angle between the 2 lines should be more tnan 20° (and preferably more than 30°).
The same rules apply to crossroads and to crossing railways.

For creating SVG files some possibilities:
- creating them directly with Illustrator on a map background (I don't find it easy to do this way)
- using a GIS (some are freeware like QGIS) to create shapefiles. This allows to use GIS topology tools that will do part of the work for you (cutting polylines so they exactly end on crossroads, merging polylines when 2 forms a continuous road, verifying the 20° angle spec, searching for crossroad errors, etc…), then converting the shapefile vector files into SVG files (possible with a specific free plugin on QGIS for example).

I can provide the map background (assembled 1900 editions maps, scanned and assembled, projected in the proper game geometry, at different resolution (10m, 25m, 50m)) if a team wants to start this map upgrading task.
  • 0

#61 Rama

Rama
  • Posts: 338

Posted 19 May 2012 - 09:46

About the rail yard add-on. I think this will be great to have. But be pragmatic about it. Getting all this done 100% historically correct will a) take so much time that it will never be completed b) not possible anyway given the limitations in 3d objects, number of textures we can use etc.

I totally agree with you.
Adding some "believable" railway depots in correct location would be a nice upgrade (or near correct location, it would be for example preferable to move the depots nearer to the actual towns than to expand towns to make them more historical - as Jason recommended not to do)

And to do everything 100% historically correct would be anyway impossible (lots of the railway depots didn't exist at war beginning, you can't find aerial photographs covering all railway locations, and most of them are payware anyway)
  • 0

#62 AnKor85

AnKor85
  • Posts: 1002

Posted 19 May 2012 - 11:10

Rama, thanks, it is a good info. I haven't really verified how cross roads are made. And good idea about using QGIS.
We absolutely need to understand all details and limitation before starting actual mapping work. Right now I'm writing some helper tools for SVG<->INI conversion (I don't like how it is done with a perl script right now). Then we will see what else could be simplified.

And I agree that we can't do everything 100% historically correct and shouldn't even try because it is a waste of time.
  • 0

#63 navair2

navair2
  • Posts: 1467
  • LocationIllinois, USA

Posted 19 May 2012 - 13:39

Very nice AnKor and Difis.

I suggest Vander, AnKor and Difis (or others) work together and send me a plan to add more stuff to the map like improved train stations, factories and other points of interest etc. and we can add into the game permanently like we have done before with Vander's vilages etc. Pooling resources and talking to Rama who knows our system quite well can probably produce some stellar results.

I don't mind paying for quality work, but some coordination by a serious team is needed.

Edit: Sorry let me be more clear. A team does the work and we import into the game as permanent like we did with Vander's previous work.

Edit 2: Splitting the map into smaller ones cannot work.

Edit 3: Do not make anything larger than what you already see in ROF or you will run into problems.

Jason

Ok Jason, thanks for the reply to my particular suggestion.

I was just throwing that out to see if it was viable. I'm sure the team is addressing everything it can to work in the additions needed to keep ROF alive and growing, and I realize there will be restrictions in what the current game engine is able to handle.

Thanks to the dev team and others of the community who are able to tackle these details and give the rest of us a simulation far better than ROF was originally. :S!:
  • 0

Case: Corsair 650D Motherboard: AsRock Z77 Extreme4 PSU: Antec TruePower New 750 Blue CPU: Intel i5-2500K ( Socket 1155 )

CPU Cooler: ZalMan CNPS9500A LED GPU: EVGA GTX 580 MEM: 8 GB G.Skill PC12800 DDR3 1600
Soundcard: Creative SB X-Fi Titanium Monitor: Samsung 2343 BWX 23"@ 2048 x 1152 OS: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit


#64 redcoat22

redcoat22
  • Posts: 840

Posted 19 May 2012 - 14:05

I spent an hour researching aerial pictures of our frontline towns and it was definitely harder than I expected. I agree we need to manage our expectations on 100% historical accuracy.

I don't know what exact day our current map is pegged but they are right about some of these frontline towns should be rubble from previous offensives.

Jason mentioned paying for quality work but I would prefer to do this ourselves given that 777 will be spending enough on internal resources by simply agreeing to implement these changes. That said, if someone needs a picture or reference material purchased PM me the details and I will pay for the items you need.
  • 0

#65 O_WolfPac

O_WolfPac
  • Posts: 1294

Posted 19 May 2012 - 14:08

Rama , i have to ask.

10 x 10 carpet tiles , have you tried making lets say 30 x 30 or dare i say it :) 50 x 50 carpet tiles

Would these carpet tiles Cause major processing on cpu , i have been told they load up on mission load out but i just can not see why it would cause cpu issues.

Is it more possible that the reason for 10 x 10 = 100 carpet tiles , is for speed of map making the carpet base layer texture.

PS.
Thank you for the information on crossroads , i know the X junction was the key but nice to see confirmation and 20-30Degree limits
  • 0

#66 AnKor85

AnKor85
  • Posts: 1002

Posted 19 May 2012 - 14:58

navair2, I believe (though I'm not an expert) that splitting the map won't actualy give many benefits in performance terms, but instead introduce other issues. So it is good to have one big map.

redcoat22, good attitude! :)
What I think is that for start we should choose one city that we want to work on. And then see what can be done. Rama sent me a couple of Amiens photos (and after looking at them I agree that it is a hard work to recreate something when you can barely see details). We've seen picture for Cambrai and Lille by Waxworks and ChiefRedCloud, and there were also some pics by Fifi for Nancy (do we have this city present on ROF map?). And sorry if I missed anything I haven't looked at everything in detail, but all input is appreciated!
And before starting the actual mapping I need to prepare some tools. It shouldn't take long because the task is quite straightforward (unlike a mission editor).

Rama, O_Wolfpac,
I became curious about junctions only at starting points and 20 deg and done some experiments that show that there are actually no such limitations in game.
I have used railways to test and see that both rendering and routing ingame can handle very sharp angles. And for junctions everything works just as I posted: the only requirment is to have a vertex on both roads at the same coordinate. That vertex can be in the middle of polyline.

You mentioned a crossroad generator. Is it a special tool from devs? I've only seen bridge generator which I haven't tried to use yet. What if those limitation are actually flaws of the generator and not the game engine?
  • 0

#67 O_WolfPac

O_WolfPac
  • Posts: 1294

Posted 19 May 2012 - 15:47

Ankor i have learned to listen and take advise i believe 20 / 30 degree rule is important and i can not say why because i do not know the answer but i remeber and do as rule says.

We made many plane exterior 3d models before , listening properly and did as told :)
Now we see technics save time in the long run , it all comes down to personal quality the creator is always the worst critic

Maybe the 20/30 degree is for vehicles , so the AI truck can drive round corner correctly without hitting house and old lady in the back garden
Maybe its so train does not spawn two locomotives or clash and spawn incorrect location.

Maybe


20 -30 degree is fine with me , its not hard to check
Easy to resolve
  • 0

#68 Rama

Rama
  • Posts: 338

Posted 19 May 2012 - 16:23

@WolfPac
I haven't played with the texture map and tiles, I just worked collecting historical maps and deriving from them the basic maps (altitude, water, vegetation, roads and railroads), so I can't answer your question. I hope Viks may answer it (I'm also interested by the answer).

@AnKor
When I worked for the maps, I asked for precise specifications, but not for the reasons of these specs.
What I tell you is what was told to me. I of course believe you when you say that files not respecting the specification may work with the graphic engine for crossroad rendering… but maybe, as WolfPac pointed, the specifications may exist for other reasons in game.

I'm probably not curious enough… sorry… ;)
  • 0

#69 LordNeuro_Srb

LordNeuro_Srb
  • Posts: 990
  • LocationNovi Sad/Serbia

Posted 19 May 2012 - 16:43

I like how thise tread is growing in positive spirite and same wery nice dedication from all involved. Same of the best things in games happend with gr8 dedication and will, just to menchen the red orchestra made as mod for ut2003. I would love to help if there is somthing i cann do or tray to do for rof. I hope we cann help the team to make it even beter game then it is now.
:S!: to all
  • 0

#70 AnKor85

AnKor85
  • Posts: 1002

Posted 19 May 2012 - 17:30

LordNeuro, thanks! :)

Rama, O_WolfPac,
Ok, I got it about specifications. I just like to push everything to its limits and beyond :)
And speaking of map tiles, something like 20x20 seems viable but I just don't have any time to test it. As I said before its not about CPU, its about Video RAM.
  • 0

#71 Jason_Williams

Jason_Williams
  • Producer
  • Posts: 3467
  • LocationLas Vegas, NV USA

Posted 19 May 2012 - 18:41

If you are planning on making new textures you are going to run into the same problems we do with memory usage and then you will run into Loft and Han telling you no you can't do something. I would discuss whatever plans you come up with, with me, Han and Loft before wasting a bunch of time.

The community has bigger eyes than ROF's stomach and they do not always understand that there are limitations in not just our engine, but all game engines. As was stated above, be pragmatic in your plan and don't try to push the team to do something they say cannot be done right now. Building new rail stations and other stuff on the big map is not the team's priority right now, but if you can do something cool without involving the team much and can be dropped into the sim without much fuss we can look at including it. Just as we did with Vander's fantastic village work.

Again, be pragmatic. Learn what you can do and start small and build from there.

P.S. I'm all for improving the map, always have been, but it needs to be done in a way that is practical and respects the limits of our technology. Even with some limitations, a lot can probably be done to add cooler stuff to the ROF world. Just taked time and some a dedicated team.

Jason
  • 0

#72 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
  • Posts: 10329

Posted 19 May 2012 - 21:17

and there were also some pics by Fifi for Nancy (do we have this city present on ROF map?)

Yes, it's East-South East of ST Mihiel area.
Very South of Pont-a-Mousson on front line.
  • 0

#73 O_WolfPac

O_WolfPac
  • Posts: 1294

Posted 20 May 2012 - 03:58

AnKor85

Is it possible to reverse engineer the data for railways we have presently ingame = turn the data into an actual editable QGIS item

The Towns are in the right places just smaller in diameter than true values we accept thats a limitation and the railway is in true location but a rail yard or station if placed in true locations ,,would not LOOK close to the town ingame ….

So can we move the railway closer to the town while adding the railyard or station at the same time

Granted the Historian anarak fan will go into a tizwaz rant we all love to read them :P , but it solves the issue of ADDING new building which causes more hassles than re-routing a railway line closer to the ROF Town so the station is more eyecandy correct.

How do we reverse engineer the data we already have with rail.
To find the location of the railway and a good point to edit from this point towards the town or village and them back towards the original railway again , to do this within the data would be a nightmare unless we can convert it back to something workable.
  • 0

#74 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
  • Posts: 10329

Posted 20 May 2012 - 04:03

The Towns are in the right places just smaller in diameter than true values we accept thats a limitation and the railway is in true location but a rail yard or station if placed in true locations ,,would not LOOK close to the town ingame ….

Wouldn't be easier for you to add few houses blocks, to extend a little the town toward the station?
  • 0

#75 O_WolfPac

O_WolfPac
  • Posts: 1294

Posted 20 May 2012 - 04:17

Yeah adding building is an option , but in some places the ROF town / city is much smaller than true life and when you add up all the building overall thats a lot of buildings added , which must cause usage issues.
Not alot of people realise that PARIS does not Exist in the Large Map of ROF, granted its in a location you would not fly so no need to build it as it would cause a usage issue,,,, its all compromises. ( Bottom left of the large rof map )

Fifi i realise you know this but some dont :)

if the railway is re-routed towards the city/towns in some cases ,this would solve and SAVE :) buildings being added to a city or large town.
  • 0

#76 AnKor85

AnKor85
  • Posts: 1002

Posted 20 May 2012 - 04:20

@Jason,
Sure. I understand the nature of limitations, I'm a programmer not in game development thought.
When I say that we aren't going to make everything 100% historical, I don't mean that I want to make it 99%, instead even something like 10% resemblance (if it was quantifiable) to the actual imagery will be enough. The main task is to make map improvements believable and good for the gameplay purposes.

@O_WolfPac,
yes, at first I'm going to convert ingame ini into editable svg. I haven't yet looked at QGIS, perhaps it can read svg via plug-ins (Rama said it can export, but maybe import too).

the Historian anarak fan will into a tizwaz
Don't understand words here, but I think I know what you mean :)

Sure, we will have to move historical railyards closer into cities, and perhaps scale them down. I don't want to make bigger cities unless absolutely necessary (and even then limit additions by one or two blocks) because I don't want to run into CPU/RAM limitatins and be told by devs that it won't work.
  • 0

#77 O_WolfPac

O_WolfPac
  • Posts: 1294

Posted 20 May 2012 - 04:38

Ankor85, DiFis and Viks :) you have popped my thoughts , this open door allows so much extra.

Ankor in some cases would it not be easier to use your example
Image

leave the original railway present in true location and create new railway line that goes into town and city with station / railyards DiFis substrate present

This would keep historical people happy ( Historical Anoraks ) and save adding buildings
A blend of commonsense and realistic balancing

Do the Substrate textures cause issues if alot of them are added to the large map ?
Do trenchlines run by the same rules as railway and road?
  • 0

#78 AnKor85

AnKor85
  • Posts: 1002

Posted 20 May 2012 - 04:45

I will see what can be done, but yes I'm going to make use of substrates by DiFiS. I have yet to see though how game engines handles a lot of them.

And yes, trenches are the same. Except that AFAIK they don't have any rules for intersections because well, there don't need any routing :)
  • 0

#79 O_WolfPac

O_WolfPac
  • Posts: 1294

Posted 20 May 2012 - 04:56

Might be time to ask Loft and Hans the correct important questions
Do the Substrate textures cause issues if alot of them are added to the large map ?
Do New Railway Textures and New Roads textures cause issues if alot of them are added to large map ?


Most of the added substrates textures and rail n road could be added along and either side of no-mansland to reduce overall workload , no need to texture paris as an example.
  • 0

#80 AnKor85

AnKor85
  • Posts: 1002

Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:26

We should have at least something to show before bothering devs.
After all, once we start workng, I think we will be able to find some people with lower-end PCs (like LordNeuro*Srb* who has already mentioned that he has a "crappy PC" and is willing to help :) ) and see how more detailed map works for them.

Here is recommended system requirments from this site:
CPU Intel® Core™ 2 Quad 2.6 GHz+ or Intel® Core™ i5/i7 2.6 GHz+
GPU 1024 Mb+, GeForce GTX 260+/Radeon HD5850+
RAM 4 Gb+

My 2.5 year old PC matches them almost perfectly:
Win 7 x64, i7 860 2.8 GHz, 1024 Mb GTX 285, 4 Gb RAM.

I don't know what minimum specs are but suppose that the most important differences are 32 bit Windows (and thus less usable RAM) and only 512 MB on video card. And as I said CPU shouldn't be important for map details, only RAM (both system and video).
  • 0


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users