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Aircraft in need of a speed boost


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#41 =Fifi=

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 06:32

Fact is that the Fokker VII was part of the Versailles treaty and all of them had to be handed over to the Allies. Why would you do this if the plane had all the characteristics attributed to it in ROF?
After the war, the Albatros was used by the newborn Polish Airforce for quite some time. Why would you do this if you can get a faster and more powerful SPAD for almost the same price?

Just for souvenir/trophy :lol:
After war, France was still using Spads, not those Fokkers. And they never tried to copy them…
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#42 J5_Rumey

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:56

Gents keep it to the subject please. If you cant post constructive then dont post. Way to much of this going around lately.
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#43 Damocles

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:30

I would be less concerned about speed increases for some of these aircraft, if not all, but only with the proviso that they bleed energy and accelerate like the SE5a.

I'm also a big fan (no s**t Sherlock) of making shooting as ranges increase, increasingly difficult. It's a bit pointless getting anally attentive to aircraft speed because bullets will always be faster still and in RoF any plane that can out turn another has the advantage, almost irrespective of speed.

Is that back on topic enough ?
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#44 SYN_Vander

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 10:05

Fact is that the Fokker VII was part of the Versailles treaty and all of them had to be handed over to the Allies. Why would you do this if the plane had all the characteristics attributed to it in ROF?
After the war, the Albatros was used by the newborn Polish Airforce for quite some time. Why would you do this if you can get a faster and more powerful SPAD for almost the same price?

Just for souvenir/trophy :lol:
After war, France was still using Spads, not those Fokkers. And they never tried to copy them…

The last thing they were interested in after the Armistice was spending money on new fighters! So it would make sense they kept what they had…

Yeah, I am a Fokker DVII fanboi! :)

sorry…off topic again…

We need the Mercedes DIIIau !!!
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#45 N28_Uberplane

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 11:55

Fact is that the Fokker VII was part of the Versailles treaty and all of them had to be handed over to the Allies. Why would you do this if the plane had all the characteristics attributed to it in ROF?
After the war, the Albatros was used by the newborn Polish Airforce for quite some time. Why would you do this if you can get a faster and more powerful SPAD for almost the same price?

Just for souvenir/trophy :lol:
After war, France was still using Spads, not those Fokkers. And they never tried to copy them…



The reason they confiscated the D.VIIs was to study the design of the wing structure. It was ahead of its time, so it would make sense to copy off of it. :S!:
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=IRFC=


#46 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 14:48

How many D.VIIs do you need to study the wings?

They already had several.

It was more about confiscating the most numerous and up-to-date fighter available to remove the German air service as a viable threat. Hell they broke most of them up along with their own planes without looking at them (or even moving them from the German depots and supply parks).

Sopwith Camels were destroyed in their hundreds only the engine and the watch being saved from each of them.

SE5a's and Pups and other planes were sold disarmed to civlians for between £1 & £5 or destroyed. They had massively downsized all the allied airforces (with the exception of the US) by January 1919.

They didn't need more than one or two D.VII's (which they already had) for research and they weren't going to use them in their air services. It was simply denying them to the Germans and other countries nothing more than that - they were scrapped for firewood and metal.
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#47 NewGuy_

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 15:14

You make good points, on both sides of the pilot account issue. :lol: :S!: MJ

Bottom quote was from this thread: SE5a v. DVIIF flight models

You need to understand that when there is physical data to back up any anecdotal account then it becomes a lot more trustworthy than what would otherwise be the case.

One shouldn't take anecdotal accounts alone as gospel, there needs to be something that can back up a story before you should start considering it as being the truth.

And when comes to the aircraft listed here, there is plenty of both physical data and anecdotal accounts that points to them as being a lot faster than they are currently portrayed in ROF.


Edit: Added 134 mph
I don't think anyone (not even me) is saying to take anecdotal evidence alone as gospel BUT it can help indicate certain FM tendencies and taken together with hard data, should help to provide a more authentic FM.

Most definitely, I agree.

I definitely think that the 180 hp Abatros machines are too slow, based on accounts and other information I have read over the past several years. I also have no doubt that the Camel is too fast, relative to the 180 hp Albatros. The Albatros should have a decided speed advantage over the Camel and the opposite is the case, atm. I do not believe that the DR1 was a faster machine, as the DR1 was the one machine that the historical F1 Camel had the ability to catch and her engine was notorious for deteriorating in performance within tens of hours of operation, as was the case with the Camel, from declassified information provided on this forum, sometime ago. Now, the DVIIf is an interesting case. I do not believe that it is conclusive that the DVIIf was faster than a SPAD XIII, at sea level, in straight and level flight, certainly not a late war model, anyway. Even snipe pilots considered the DVII, without regard to variant, as an inferior plane type when compared to their Snipe machines; the plane that gave 1917 performance, in 1918:

George Jones another Australian wrote in a post-war staff college report;


"The Squadron[4 Sqn AFC] was equipped, in the first instance, with Clerget Camels and it continued to use this type until eight weeks before the Armistice, when it was re-equipped with Sopwith Snipe. It was, I believe, the second Squadron to receive them, and is therefore one of the few Squadrons which enjoyed their superiority over the Fokker D7."

Now, if the DVII came in a variant that could outrun a properly operating SPAD 13, a plane that, by that time, could go 134 mph to 140 mph, at sea level, in straight and level flight, would Snipe pilots be so boastful? I am not so sure. Now, is Goering claiming that the DVIIf could go faster than 134 mph, 137 mph or 140 mph, at sea level? Anyone have an exacting replica of the DVIIf able to go over 134 mph, 137 mph or 140 mph, in straight and level flight, at sea level? Any DVII replica, with any engine type, historical or otherwise, capable of going over 134 mph, 137 mph or 140 mph, in straight and level flight, at sea level? Any Central Powers official tests that demonstrate a DVIIf going over 134 mph, 137 mph or 140 mph, in straight and level flight, at sea level? I am not so sure of such a claim. :S!: MJ

Quote

p.s. Let us remember that a Snipe, a plane comparable to a BR1 Camel, in speed terms, at sea level, could escape a DVII, by some means. Did the DVII pilots attacking Barker, on October 27th 1918, let Barker escape, after repeatedly trying to kill Barker or did Barker pull away from his attackers, due to a speed advantage, at lower altitudes? [How do you know that the DVIIs had DVIIfs among them, that the Central pilots did not let Barker go, etc…!] Well, how do we know that the SPADs did not have damage or that the SPAD pilots were under orders not to fight the enemy on the level or that the SPAD pilots were under instructions not to run off, chasing after EA, but to stick together. etc. The same sort of doubts and issues, raised in the Barker example, can be raised with the claim by Goering.
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#48 Panthera

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 21:18

MJ_Morrow,

One must remember that not very many BMW engined D.VIIF's were around compared to the regular Merc engined D.VII's, and it is entirely possible that a Snipe could've outrun one of the latter

Also you're basing your theory on anecdotal accounts from one side only, and with no physical data to back it up. What makes Göring's account credible is the physical data in support of it.

As for some of the British Snipe pilots seeing their plane as superior, by comparison German pilots saw their DVII as unrivalled in the air. The difference however is that all modern day experts seem to support that the DVII was a superior plane to the Snipe, or infact any Entente scout of the war, and this is based on anecdotal as-well as actual physical evidence.
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#49 Brandiment

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 21:32

Vander,

hehe, this is Mr. full-one-side-bias posting again

To sum it up quickly : all CP planes are too slow and all but one entente planes are too fast,

yeah, sure thats the way it goes
if it is bias then why is the N17 in the list?
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#50 NickM

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 21:43

What makes Göring's account credible is the physical data in support of it.

Yes. A very trustworthy source.
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#51 NewGuy_

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 23:37

MJ_Morrow,

One must remember that not very many BMW engined D.VIIF's were around compared to the regular Merc engined D.VII's, and it is entirely possible that a Snipe could've outrun one of the latter

Also you're basing your theory on anecdotal accounts from one side only, and with no physical data to back it up. What makes Göring's account credible is the physical data in support of it.

As for some of the British Snipe pilots seeing their plane as superior, by comparison German pilots saw their DVII as unrivalled in the air. The difference however is that all modern day experts seem to support that the DVII was a superior plane to the Snipe, or infact any Entente scout of the war, and this is based on anecdotal as-well as actual physical evidence.

Is there data though, to support that a DVIIf could go at a speed exceeding 134 mph, 137 mph, or even exceed 140 mph, at sea level and in straight and level flight? If so, can you submit it to the ROF team? :S!: MJ

p.s. This would be a good time for a Mig 77 post. Where are you Mig? Mig knows a lot about the DVIIf, I think. :D
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#52 catchov

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 00:25

MJ_Morrow,

One must remember that not very many BMW engined D.VIIF's were around compared to the regular Merc engined D.VII's, and it is entirely possible that a Snipe could've outrun one of the latter

Also you're basing your theory on anecdotal accounts from one side only, and with no physical data to back it up. What makes Göring's account credible is the physical data in support of it.

As for some of the British Snipe pilots seeing their plane as superior, by comparison German pilots saw their DVII as unrivalled in the air. The difference however is that all modern day experts seem to support that the DVII was a superior plane to the Snipe, or infact any Entente scout of the war, and this is based on anecdotal as-well as actual physical evidence.

Is there data though, to support that a DVIIf could go at a speed exceeding 134 mph, 137 mph, or even exceed 140 mph, at sea level and in straight and level flight? If so, can you submit it to the ROF team? :S!: MJ

p.s. This would be a good time for a Mig 77 post. Where are you Mig? Mig knows a lot about the DVIIf, I think. :D

What is wrong with you MJ! Don't you know anything! You cannot use Entente anecdotes. They are rubbish.

Far better to rely on faceless "modern day experts" (whoever they may be) who "seem to support" various theories and obscure unproved theoretical data from more faceless "experts" years after the actual event and conditions. Then match this up with Central Powers anecdotes …. and tweak it to suit the OP's agenda.

I have rarely seen such blatant cherry-picking. :lol: And of course, Panthera is a chap who is never wrong. Why, even he admits it …. all the time. :zzz:
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#53 J5_Rumey

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:37

Split topic started a new thread for you gents where you can discuss where the DVII went after the war. riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=28300

Also no more bias this or that posts, keep it constructive. Discuss, use historical data and anecdotes, I know it can become heated. But no more personal attacks, please.
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#54 MiG-77

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 15:38

p.s. This would be a good time for a Mig 77 post. Where are you Mig? Mig knows a lot about the DVIIf, I think. :D

At the moment at work ;) I have huge bathroom/sauna rebuilding going on in my house and I cannot live there at the moment (water had leaked in house structures and it takes very, very long time to concrete to dry up. After which "rebuilding" part only starts).

All my data, RoF, etc are located in my house I dont have access to it at the moment. So I just occasianlly check/read RoF forums from work ;)

Anyway I have posted about D.VIIF before in several occasions. It might have been possible to D.VIIF to outrun SPAD XIII, if full altitude throttle was used (and could be used depending of fuel) and SPAD XIII was used up, etc. IIRC there is calculated data that D.VIIF in right conditions could do over 130mph at sealevel.
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#55 NakedSquirrel

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 16:25

I've caught pleanty a SPAD XIII's and SPAD VII's on the deck, I mainly use the Pfalz DXII though. The DVIIF isn't that steady and you lose airspeed too easily.

You guys have to stop flying on the treetops if you want to catch someone. At 1000m your DVIIF and DXIII are almost the same speed as a SPAD XIII, above that and your a lot faster.

Image

Nuts.

Either that or catchov is on to me.

Image
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#56 Panthera

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 00:36

Is there data though, to support that a DVIIf could go at a speed exceeding 134 mph, 137 mph, or even exceed 140 mph, at sea level and in straight and level flight? If so, can you submit it to the ROF team? :S!: MJ

Yes there is data to support it, just as MiG-77 mentioned, if full altitude throttle was used then it is possible that a DVIIF could match a SPAD XIII in speed or maybe even outrun it.

Running on full regular throttle setting and the SPAD XIII was faster by a good 10 to 12 mph, but running on full alt throttle the top speed was likely about the same.

However despite the fact that the engine easily could've handled it (some pilots even ran it at full setting for 30min at tree top level with no issues), pilots were instructed not to use the alt throttle below 2000 m in an effort to prolong engine life. So not a whole lot of German pilots would've used the alt throttle below 2km.
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#57 NewGuy_

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:05

Is there data though, to support that a DVIIf could go at a speed exceeding 134 mph, 137 mph, or even exceed 140 mph, at sea level and in straight and level flight? If so, can you submit it to the ROF team? :S!: MJ

Yes there is data to support it, just as MiG-77 mentioned, if full altitude throttle was used then it is possible that a DVIIF could match a SPAD XIII in speed or maybe even outrun it.

Running on full regular throttle setting and the SPAD XIII was faster by a good 10 to 12 mph, but running on full alt throttle the top speed was likely about the same.

However despite the fact that the engine easily could've handled it (some pilots even ran it at full setting for 30min at tree top level with no issues), pilots were instructed not to use the alt throttle below 2000 m in an effort to prolong engine life. So not a whole lot of German pilots would've used the alt throttle below 2km.

If I understand Mig correctly, it is possible, under certain circumstances, that the DVIIf could run as fast or faster than a SPAD XIII, at sea level, but not all of the time, so to model that accurately would require modeling the necessary conditions some of the time, but not all of the time. I like the idea, particularly if it leads to late war SPAD XIIIs added to ROF. :D :S!: MJ
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#58 =Fifi=

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:40

If I understand Mig correctly, it is possible, under certain circumstances, that the DVIIf could run as fast or faster than a SPAD XIII, at sea level, but not all of the time

Yes, using the altitude throttle for a moment it might be, but be aware of the engine damage if too long…

We need a 300hp Spad! :mrgreen:
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#59 NewGuy_

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:54

If I understand Mig correctly, it is possible, under certain circumstances, that the DVIIf could run as fast or faster than a SPAD XIII, at sea level, but not all of the time

Yes, using the altitude throttle for a moment it might be, but be aware of the engine damage if too long…

We need a 300hp Spad! :mrgreen:

Fifi,
How fast would that 300 hp SPAD be? :o Are you talking about the SPAD XVII? I can't get too much info on it. The figures I did find seem high. I think one site claimed it could go 240 kph! :o That would be awesome, if it could! :lol: :S!: MJ

Edit: From the Aircam Aviation Series No 9 SPAD Scouts SVII- SXIII, the SPAD XVII had roughly the same performance as the 235 HP SPAD XIII. (I think Mig told me this too, some time ago.) I would love it if we could get the late war SPADs in, but I guess not this year. Maybe in 2013? :D :
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#60 =Fifi=

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:48

"THE SPAD-HERBEMONT TWO-SEATER MONOCOQUE: A Military biplane, 300 h.p. Hispano-Suiza, on which the French pilot, Sadi Lecointe, made a record altitude (solo) flight of 89,200 ft. He also beat the speed record (with passenger) with a speed of 142.8 m.p.h. (230 Km/h in 1918 with passenger)"

Image

Even existed as floatplane :o :

Image

But some (very few) Spad XIII were 300hp equiped before the end of war.
It seems this engine (HS 8Fb) was released for first time in April 18.
Best pilots of GC12 stork were able to fly them.
More 235hp were made and used.
About the speed of S XIII 300hp, i don't know…just guessing around 235/240 Km/h.
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#61 J2_Adam

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:26

"THE SPAD-HERBEMONT TWO-SEATER MONOCOQUE: A Military biplane, 300 h.p. Hispano-Suiza, on which the French pilot, Sadi Lecointe, made a record altitude (solo) flight of 89,200 ft. He also beat the speed record (with passenger) with a speed of 142.8 m.p.h. (230 Km/h in 1918 with passenger)"

Are you sure about that? :lol:

Chuck Yeager Bell X-1A in 1953…. 74,200 feet. :S!:
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#62 NewGuy_

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:36

"THE SPAD-HERBEMONT TWO-SEATER MONOCOQUE: A Military biplane, 300 h.p. Hispano-Suiza, on which the French pilot, Sadi Lecointe, made a record altitude (solo) flight of 89,200 ft. He also beat the speed record (with passenger) with a speed of 142.8 m.p.h. (230 Km/h in 1918 with passenger)"

Image

Even existed as floatplane :o :

Image

But some (very few) Spad XIII were 300hp equiped before the end of war.
It seems this engine (HS 8Fb) was released for first time in April 18.
Best pilots of GC12 stork were able to fly them.
More 235hp were made and used.
About the speed of S XIII 300hp, i don't know…just guessing around 235/240 Km/h.

Fifi,
That is a really sharp looking SPAD machine and it can carry two persons! :D I suppose that the SPAD XIII 220 hp and SPAD XIII 235 hp would have a better chance of getting into ROF, certainly long before an exotic SPAD with 300 hp, but maybe the team will eventually make a few exotic planes. :S!: MJ
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#63 Panthera

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:10

If I understand Mig correctly, it is possible, under certain circumstances, that the DVIIf could run as fast or faster than a SPAD XIII, at sea level, but not all of the time

Yes, using the altitude throttle for a moment it might be, but be aware of the engine damage if too long…

Not according to the pilots who operated it. Some flew with the altitude throttle fully engaged at tree top level for over 30 min with no engine issues. So the rather fragile BMW engine we have ingame atm doesn't do too well compared to the real thing.
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#64 =Fifi=

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:16

"THE SPAD-HERBEMONT TWO-SEATER MONOCOQUE: A Military biplane, 300 h.p. Hispano-Suiza, on which the French pilot, Sadi Lecointe, made a record altitude (solo) flight of 89,200 ft. He also beat the speed record (with passenger) with a speed of 142.8 m.p.h. (230 Km/h in 1918 with passenger)"

Are you sure about that? :lol:

Chuck Yeager Bell X-1A in 1953…. 74,200 feet. :S!:

:shock: That's a mistype of the web site! :lol:

Real thing is 8.920 METERS in May 1919, and then 11.145 METERS in October 1923…

Some flew with the altitude throttle fully engaged at tree top level for over 30 min with no engine issues

Really?? Didn't know about that…
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#65 242Sqn_Wolf

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:45

If I understand Mig correctly, it is possible, under certain circumstances, that the DVIIf could run as fast or faster than a SPAD XIII, at sea level, but not all of the time

Yes, using the altitude throttle for a moment it might be, but be aware of the engine damage if too long…

Not according to the pilots who operated it. Some flew with the altitude throttle fully engaged at tree top level for over 30 min with no engine issues. So the rather fragile BMW engine we have ingame atm doesn't do too well compared to the real thing.

Again you says things without saying where you saw them, or even quoting your sources.

The BMW IIIa was overcompressed, using full throttle at altitudes below 2,000 m (6,700 ft) risked premature detonation in the cylinders and damage to the engine. Yes it might have happened once. So you want all of them to do this?

It shouldn't be done without some idea as to the numbers invovled. Even the conditions that day might have explain it. So again I say details. This to me is still a over generalization. If it happened once then thay is still only a 1 in 750 chance of ever happening.
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#66 NewGuy_

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 14:58

If I understand Mig correctly, it is possible, under certain circumstances, that the DVIIf could run as fast or faster than a SPAD XIII, at sea level, but not all of the time

Yes, using the altitude throttle for a moment it might be, but be aware of the engine damage if too long…

Not according to the pilots who operated it. Some flew with the altitude throttle fully engaged at tree top level for over 30 min with no engine issues. So the rather fragile BMW engine we have ingame atm doesn't do too well compared to the real thing.

Again you says things without saying where you saw them, or even quoting your sources.

The BMW IIIa was overcompressed, using full throttle at altitudes below 2,000 m (6,700 ft) risked premature detonation in the cylinders and damage to the engine. Yes it might have happened once. So you want all of them to do this?

It shouldn't be done without some idea as to the numbers invovled. Even the conditions that day might have explain it. So again I say details. This to me is still a over generalization. If it happened once then thay is still only a 1 in 750 chance of ever happening.

Wolf,
Well Mig believes, it could happen, under the right conditions, but not under all conditions. At least that is how I interpreted what Mig was pointing out. While it would be neat to introduce some sort of variability in the performance of one machine or the other, by including different fuel and propeller options or by introducing a progressive wear and tear of a machine, so that initial performance and integrity deteriorates over time, for example, such things are not currently modeled in ROF. If such things are modeled, we may one day see fabric rip off a diving, worn out, SPADs wing or a DVIIf that can drag race a beat up 235 hp SPAD XIII, at sea level.:lol: :S!: MJ
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#67 NakedSquirrel

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 15:18

Is there data though, to support that a DVIIf could go at a speed exceeding 134 mph, 137 mph, or even exceed 140 mph, at sea level and in straight and level flight? If so, can you submit it to the ROF team? :S!: MJ

Yes there is data to support it, just as MiG-77 mentioned, if full altitude throttle was used then it is possible that a DVIIF could match a SPAD XIII in speed or maybe even outrun it.

If I understand Mig correctly, it is possible, under certain circumstances, that the DVIIf could run as fast or faster than a SPAD XIII, at sea level, but not all of the time, so to model that accurately would require modeling the necessary conditions some of the time, but not all of the time. I like the idea, particularly if it leads to late war SPAD XIIIs added to ROF. :D :S!: MJ

Have you tried changing the atmospheric pressure or air temperature in game. This does affect your engine performance, and it's very noticeable with the BMW engines.
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#68 NewGuy_

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 18:41

Is there data though, to support that a DVIIf could go at a speed exceeding 134 mph, 137 mph, or even exceed 140 mph, at sea level and in straight and level flight? If so, can you submit it to the ROF team? :S!: MJ

Yes there is data to support it, just as MiG-77 mentioned, if full altitude throttle was used then it is possible that a DVIIF could match a SPAD XIII in speed or maybe even outrun it.

If I understand Mig correctly, it is possible, under certain circumstances, that the DVIIf could run as fast or faster than a SPAD XIII, at sea level, but not all of the time, so to model that accurately would require modeling the necessary conditions some of the time, but not all of the time. I like the idea, particularly if it leads to late war SPAD XIIIs added to ROF. :D :S!: MJ

Have you tried changing the atmospheric pressure or air temperature in game. This does affect your engine performance, and it's very noticeable with the BMW engines.

NakedSquirrel,
I did not know about the atmospheric pressure changes being modeled, but I did notice that my SPAD VII 150 hp engine takes a pounding when the temperature drops below 40 degrees Celsius; then temperature definitely impacts engine performance. I guess, but don't know for sure, that atmospheric pressure impacts the temperature needed to overheat or overcool the engine? :S!: MJ
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#69 Panthera

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 00:51

Again you says things without saying where you saw them, or even quoting your sources.

Fokker DVII aces of WW1, Part one, Page 23 & 24.

[1]"Not only have we been operating in the "over-gas" throttle position almost constantly throughout aerial engagements, but also at low altitude, and without any damage to the engine."

[2]"Recently, a pilot, after being pressed down near a captive balloon, was attacked by some SPADs. He flew for over half an hour with the throttle in the "over gas" position and the motor at full revs (1500-1600 rpm) at a height of 100 metres, pursued by the SPADs. It was superior in rate to the SPADs. The engine ran smoothly and had not suffered in the slighest."

[3]"Lately the Geschwader has succeeded in regaining complete domination of the sky. The enemy is much more on the defensive and is usually out of reach and at great altitude. The superiority of the Fokker DVII with the BMWIIIa engine has increased quickly. We have succeeded several times in surprising the enemy by staying low, and as we approach, fly closely to him, then suddenly apply "over gas" throttle, quickly climb over and thus gaining the better tactical position. Likewise, since the Geschwader has been equipped with the BMW engines, it has become easier to climb and catch the enemy squadrons. The Fokker DVII with the BMW engine is equal to all other aircraft types in diving ability, and superior to the 300 hp SPADs"

The BMW IIIa was overcompressed, using full throttle at altitudes below 2,000 m (6,700 ft) risked premature detonation in the cylinders and damage to the engine. Yes it might have happened once. So you want all of them to do this?

That was a warning given to pilots in an effort to prolong engine life seeing as supply of the BMW was very scarce. Also I have yet to find a single example of one ever actually taking damage from excesive use of the alt throttle. Have you?

It shouldn't be done without some idea as to the numbers invovled. Even the conditions that day might have explain it. So again I say details. This to me is still a over generalization. If it happened once then thay is still only a 1 in 750 chance of ever happening.

According to all I've read so far it was a rahter common occcurence, and I have yet to find a single example of where the use of the alt throttle damaged the engine.
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#70 Panthera

Panthera
  • Posts: 462

Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:08

According to mr. Kacey, a respected authority on WW1 engines over at the Aerodrome forums, the BMWIIIa could be run safely at the "over-gas" throttle position at low altitude if the so called "Flieger Benzine" high octane fuel was used.

He lists a top speed of ~205 km/h without any use of the alt throttle (~210 bhp), and ~220 km/h with 2/3rds altitude throttle at sea level (~235 bhp).

The opinion of French pilots:

"The triplane Fokker is disappearing little by little. The Fokker D VII (biplane) is reported
by our pursuit pilots to be encountered frequently. It is an excellent machine, being
better than the 180hp SPAD and equal to the 220hp SPAD in horizontal speed, and it
is apparently able to climb faster, is extremely manoeuvrable and able to continue
acrobacy at high altitudes of 5000 to 5500 metres."

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#71 =Fifi=

=Fifi=
  • Posts: 10329

Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:10

"…We have succeeded several times in surprising the enemy by staying low, and as we approach, fly closely to him, then suddenly apply "over gas" throttle, quickly climb over and thus gaining the better tactical position."

Don't know this pilot (is he really a pilot?) but that's a chance for him, with this strange tactic, he never crossed Fonck's way…way above him :mrgreen:
He (or they) propably would have never seen him coming.
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#72 Panthera

Panthera
  • Posts: 462

Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:17

"…We have succeeded several times in surprising the enemy by staying low, and as we approach, fly closely to him, then suddenly apply "over gas" throttle, quickly climb over and thus gaining the better tactical position."

Don't know this pilot (is he really a pilot?) but that's a chance for him, with this strange tactic, he never crossed Fonck's way…way above him :mrgreen:
He (or they) propably would have never seen him coming.

Not so sure about that.

The tactic described is based on decieving the enemy into believing that you can't quite climb to his altitude, making sure he doesn't run away believing you are in a faster or better climbing aircraft than him. However stay just under him, let him pass, and then apply full throttle, climb over him and reverse to get on his tail.
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#73 NewGuy_

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  • Posts: 4114

Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:11

Panthera,
It might be a great idea to give the DVIIfs the simulated of benefit of the special fuel! The thing is, right now, we don't have the most common DVII type and we don't have late war SPAD XIIIs. This basically means that to give the DVIIf the benefit of the special fuel, we need to turn the DVIIf loose on 1917 180 hp and 200hp SPAD planes, with the entire DVII fleet made up of DVIIfs. While this would be fun for you, you can imagine that Allied pilots would be bringing a big bag of WTF, as they get chased down by every leaderboard whore Sniper shooter on Earth. (Kind of what the Alby pilots must go through, right now, I would imagine. :lol: ) Still, when the team introduces a Mercedes D.IIIau engine powered DVII and introduces late war SPAD XIII machines, then it would be a great idea to add in the special fuel additives, for the BMW powered DVIIfs, for historical accuracy. ;) :S!: MJ

…Throw in the Pfalz DXII (Mercedes D.IIIau, too) ;)
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#74 Panthera

Panthera
  • Posts: 462

Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:30

MJ,

The Fokker DVII & SPAD XIII are both 1918 fighter aircraft, and as far as I can see we already have the 220 hp SPAD XIII ingame based on the 222 km/h top speed & climb performance, while we lack the Merc IIIaü powered DVII with a 200 km/h top speed and much higher climb rate. Instead we have a rather peculier 160 hp Merc DIIIa powered DVII which can hardly climb and just scratches 190 km/h.

On top of this the ingame DVIIF is not performing nearly as well as its' real life counterpart which was capable of atleast 205 km/h at SL without the use of over-gas, and possibly over 225 km/h at SL with use of over-gas. Plus the ingame BMW engine can't be run with altitude throttle at SL for more than 2-4 min before taking damage, where'as the real thing could be run on over-gas at low altitude for long periods of time depending on the fuel used.

Also Flieger Benzine wasn't really special fuel, it was high octane fuel which was in use by the fighter squadrons when available, and it does seem like quite a few Jastas were using it in 1918.
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#75 winger2

winger2
  • Posts: 1056

Posted 15 March 2012 - 15:20

MJ,

The Fokker DVII & SPAD XIII are both 1918 fighter aircraft, and as far as I can see we already have the 220 hp SPAD XIII ingame based on the 222 km/h top speed & climb performance, while we lack the Merc IIIaü powered DVII with a 200 km/h top speed and much higher climb rate. Instead we have a rather peculier 160 hp Merc DIIIa powered DVII which can hardly climb and just scratches 190 km/h.

On top of this the ingame DVIIF is not performing nearly as well as its' real life counterpart which was capable of atleast 205 km/h at SL without the use of over-gas, and possibly over 225 km/h at SL with use of over-gas. Plus the ingame BMW engine can't be run with altitude throttle at SL for more than 2-4 min before taking damage, where'as the real thing could be run on over-gas at low altitude for long periods of time depending on the fuel used.

Also Flieger Benzine wasn't really special fuel, it was high octane fuel which was in use by the fighter squadrons when available, and it does seem like quite a few Jastas were using it in 1918.


Youll be referred as "Don Quijote" by me from now on. I do not expect it to happen but ill keep my fingers crossed that this story may end as the Don being the winner at the end:P

Winger
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#76 NewGuy_

NewGuy_
  • Posts: 4114

Posted 15 March 2012 - 22:10

MJ,

The Fokker DVII & SPAD XIII are both 1918 fighter aircraft, and as far as I can see we already have the 220 hp SPAD XIII ingame based on the 222 km/h top speed & climb performance, while we lack the Merc IIIaü powered DVII with a 200 km/h top speed and much higher climb rate. Instead we have a rather peculier 160 hp Merc DIIIa powered DVII which can hardly climb and just scratches 190 km/h.

On top of this the ingame DVIIF is not performing nearly as well as its' real life counterpart which was capable of atleast 205 km/h at SL without the use of over-gas, and possibly over 225 km/h at SL with use of over-gas. Plus the ingame BMW engine can't be run with altitude throttle at SL for more than 2-4 min before taking damage, where'as the real thing could be run on over-gas at low altitude for long periods of time depending on the fuel used.

Also Flieger Benzine wasn't really special fuel, it was high octane fuel which was in use by the fighter squadrons when available, and it does seem like quite a few Jastas were using it in 1918.

Panthera,
The ROF SPAD XIII does about 213 kph to 215 kph, at sea level, so I think she is in fact a 200 hp, 1917 model. Ok, when the Benzine was available, it was used and when it wasn't available, then it was not used. So, to be historically accurate, the team would have to model availability and vary the performance of the DVIIf, along the lines of the availability. This seems like a lot of effort, considering that the DVIIf must now stand in for the DVII Mercedes D.IIIau and since there are no late war SPAD XIIIs, in game. :S!: MJ

P.S. It would be cool if the ROF team made late war SPADs, (220 hp, 235 hp and/or 300 hp) the common DVII type and if they could add the variable performance, for the DVIIf, based on high octane fuel availability and what not. Sounds like great ideas, for 2013 and 2014. :D
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#77 gavagai

gavagai
  • Posts: 15542

Posted 16 March 2012 - 00:22

Morrow is right. The RoF Spad 13 is a 200hp 1917 model. Don't believe the store page.
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#78 NewGuy_

NewGuy_
  • Posts: 4114

Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:13

Morrow is right…

Gav,
Would you autograph a copy of this statement? I have a feeling I might be waiting a few years more, before you write such a thing about me again. :lol: :S!: MJ
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Something something SPAD. Something something then dive away. 


#79 Panthera

Panthera
  • Posts: 462

Posted 16 March 2012 - 14:47

If the SPAD XIII cannot reach 222 km/h in straight flight ingame then that is another thing which needs looking into. I for one just haven't really noticed it, and I do fly the SPAD a lot, that is not to say it isn't the case though. But that some of the aircraft ingame currently aren't even living up to the values listed on the store page, that is clear. I for one am having a hard time even reaching 180 km/h at SL in the DVII.
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#80 Panthera

Panthera
  • Posts: 462

Posted 16 March 2012 - 15:26

Made a few test flights with the Fokker DVII, DVIIF & SPAD XIII to test out max SL speed.

I achieved the following racing as close to the ground as possible:

DVII = 186 km/h
DVIIF = 192 km/h (no alt throttle)
SPAD XIII = 218 km/h

Changing radiator grill deflection didn't seem to have any impact.

By comparison the real aircraft could achieve the following:

Fokker DVII (Merc DIII aü 200 hp) = 200 km/h
Fokker DVIIF (BMW IIIa 210-250 hp) = 205 km/h to ~225 km/h
SPAD XIII (Hisp Suiza 8Be 220 hp) = 222 km/h
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