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unrealistic speed of Camel


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#81 gavagai

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 15:31

I never thought it was necessary when I first read about the idea, but now I'm beginning to think that a "sarcasm point" (or mark)* would be necessary.

Yes, for you to understand me correctly. ;)
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#82 Parazaine

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 16:26

It might help people understand me better too, along with an irony marker… ;)
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#83 Charlie_14

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 16:31

Stupid question not meant to cause an uproar but why don't most servers just exclude – or severely restrict with fuel loads – the Camel and DRI and call it a day? No, it's not a perfect answer by any means, and no, it's not historically correct, particularly in the Camel's case given its prevalence in the war, but just as a stop gap measure until they are updated?
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#84 Parazaine

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 16:47

Stupid question not meant to cause an uproar but why don't most servers just exclude, or severely restrict the Camel and DRI with fuel loads, and call it a day? No, it's not a perfect answer by any means, and no, it's not historically correct, particularly in the Camel's case given its prevalence in the war, but just as a stop gap measure until they are updated?

You may have noticed that the online community (or at least some of it's more vocal members) constantly harp on about realism (even if it unbalances things….the war wasn't balanced, they say) but they fail to take into account all the areas where RoF still ISN'T historic.

Some talented mission builders (no hint of sarcasm or irony here for those unable to spot it) have built some, on the face of it, very historical missions…however, we still lack a lot of the aircraft present and some are either not represented at all, represented too much or substituted by the wrong variants.

The main reason you will never see the Camel removed is the one you already stated…it would be ridiculously unhistoric, however fuel locks WOULD help and on the occasions that i've flown on servers implementing a 50% or higher lock, the experience has been far more immersive and realistic and the so-called uber planes have had their wings clipped somewhat.

The ultimate answer can be seen from the most popular server online atm….it features a bit of everything and results in constant low-level furballs. Other servers have tried what you suggest but people in general, while harping on about realism DON'T SEEM to actually WANT to fly in a realistic manner/setting.
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#85 Charlie_14

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 16:49

Stupid question not meant to cause an uproar but why don't most servers just exclude, or severely restrict the Camel and DRI with fuel loads, and call it a day? No, it's not a perfect answer by any means, and no, it's not historically correct, particularly in the Camel's case given its prevalence in the war, but just as a stop gap measure until they are updated?

You may have noticed that the online community (or at least some of it's more vocal members) constantly harp on about realism (even if it unbalances things….the war wasn't balanced, they say) but they fail to take into account all the areas where RoF still ISN'T historic.

Some talented mission builders (no hint of sarcasm or irony here for those unable to spot it) have built some, on the face of it, very historical missions…however, we still lack a lot of the aircraft present and some are either not represented at all, represented too much or substituted by the wrong variants.

The main reason you will never see the Camel removed is the one you already stated…it would be ridiculously unhistoric, however fuel locks WOULD help and on the occasions that i've flown on servers implementing a 50% or higher lock, the experience has been far more immersive and realistic and the so-called uber planes have had their wings clipped somewhat.

The ultimate answer can be seen from the most popular server online atm….it features a bit of everything and results in constant low-level furballs. Other servers have tried what you suggest but people in general, while harping on about realism DON'T SEEM to actually WANT to fly in a realistic manner/setting.

Hmmmm, OK, thanks for that insight. Makes sense.
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#86 HotTom

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 16:56

people in general, while harping on about realism DON'T SEEM to actually WANT to fly in a realistic manner/setting.

Para, respectfully, people who want realism do NOT fly in MP.

The introduction of TDM and CTF transformed MP into an arcade game.

And until we have real Coops and On Line Campaigns with Dead is Dead (at least for that mission or campaign) that's all MP ever will be.

Pity.

:S!:
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#87 gavagai

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 16:56

Stupid question not meant to cause an uproar but why don't most servers just exclude – or severely restrict with fuel loads – the Camel and DRI and call it a day? No, it's not a perfect answer by any means, and no, it's not historically correct, particularly in the Camel's case given its prevalence in the war, but just as a stop gap measure until they are updated?

I have a more simple answer. When the most over-modeled aircraft are restricted people leave the server. There's one guy, Suseri, who won't even fly if the Camel is not included on the map.
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#88 Charlie_14

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 17:01

people in general, while harping on about realism DON'T SEEM to actually WANT to fly in a realistic manner/setting.

Para, respectfully, people who want realism do NOT fly in MP.

The introduction of TDM and CTF transformed MP into an arcade game.

And until we have real Coops and On Line Campaigns with Dead is Dead (at least for that mission or campaign) that's all MP ever will be.

Pity.

:S!:

That would be fantastic! The DiD deal would change ROEs pretty quickly I suspect.
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#89 HotTom

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 17:06

Yup.

The introduction of respawn is what killed MP for me.
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#90 Pimpin

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 17:12

Stupid question not meant to cause an uproar but why don't most servers just exclude – or severely restrict with fuel loads – the Camel and DRI and call it a day? No, it's not a perfect answer by any means, and no, it's not historically correct, particularly in the Camel's case given its prevalence in the war, but just as a stop gap measure until they are updated?

I have a more simple answer. When the most over-modeled aircraft are restricted people leave the server. There's one guy, Suseri, who won't even fly if the Camel is not included on the map.

Thats because some people are playing a 'win at all costs' game, rather than a sim.
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#91 ZaltysZ

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 17:36

Para, respectfully, people who want realism do NOT fly in MP.

And people who DECLARE they want realism use time acceleration and icons and so on, while finding a way to justify what they do. Selective realism isn't restricted to MP only. :lol:
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#92 ZaltysZ

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 17:41

Stupid question not meant to cause an uproar but why don't most servers just exclude – or severely restrict with fuel loads – the Camel and DRI and call it a day? No, it's not a perfect answer by any means, and no, it's not historically correct, particularly in the Camel's case given its prevalence in the war, but just as a stop gap measure until they are updated?

Because it is not such a big problem like some people like to present it.
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#93 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 18:39

I love to fly the Camel, but because of all the bad felling I haven't flown MP for around eight or nine months. Iv always flown with the recommended 50% or above and lots of times it would be at 100% because Id simply forget to change the fuel slider, Iv had my ass handed to me hundreds of times far more losses than wins. I would always avoid B&Z enemies every time, and if I couldn't Id try like hell to drag them to the ground, the smart pilots wouldn't follow me and waited to bounce me at an other time, somehow I thought that's the way it was in RL to. Anyways Ill avoid MP tell all this FM business is out of the way then ILL go back to flying my beloved Camel.

Cheers and salute Gentlemen
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#94 gavagai

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 19:08

Stupid question not meant to cause an uproar but why don't most servers just exclude – or severely restrict with fuel loads – the Camel and DRI and call it a day? No, it's not a perfect answer by any means, and no, it's not historically correct, particularly in the Camel's case given its prevalence in the war, but just as a stop gap measure until they are updated?

Because it is not such a big problem like some people like to present it.

Says the guy who is in the top 100 for the Camel and Dr1 on the aircraft leaderboard. :S!:
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#95 ZaltysZ

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 20:19

Says the guy who is in the top 100 for the Camel and Dr1 on the aircraft leaderboard. :S!:

I guess it is the score from early 2010. :D
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#96 JoeCrow

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 21:03

Stupid question not meant to cause an uproar but why don't most servers just exclude – or severely restrict with fuel loads – the Camel and DRI and call it a day? No, it's not a perfect answer by any means, and no, it's not historically correct, particularly in the Camel's case given its prevalence in the war, but just as a stop gap measure until they are updated?

Because it is not such a big problem like some people like to present it.

Says the guy who is in the top 100 for the Camel and Dr1 on the aircraft leaderboard. :S!:

Says the guy who is in the top 10 for the SPAD 13 and the Alby D5a.
Do I smell a vested interest?
:S!:
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#97 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 23:35

Says the guy who is in the top 10 for the SPAD 13 and the Alby D5a.
Do I smell a vested interest?
:S!:

Dunno about 'vested interest' but no one will deny they take skill to get good at. Particularly the Albasloth.

I've far more respect for those planes than the steroid Camel and Dr.1 but what would I know? Certainly I'm in no position to comment about Camels maybe they were faster than every other plane around and their pilots just didn't notice?
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#98 R_Suppards

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 00:39

I fly ROF because I love it's realism. That being said I also understand that true realism is hard for the developers to achieve in one hit.It is a trial and error situation. Having been told that my blundering around with 50% fuel in the Camel places me at a disadvantage to the Pfalz, the idea of flying a career with less than minimal fuel does not appeal. So I'll continue trying to squeeze the best out of the Camel without resorting to cheating, for to me that is what it is. (personal view for personal flying).
That something is wrong with the fundamentals of the Camel v the Pfalz was brought home by a recent career dogfight. Four Camels against three Albatros DVa and three Pfalz DIIIa's should according to all historic accounts have been a fairly even contest. All four Camels, me included, were butchered in the space of about two minutes for the loss of one Albatros DVa. I know it will be argued that AI Camel pilots are rubbish, not able to get the best out of the machine. I know that carrying 40% fuel. as I was then, places me at a disadvantage. Therefore in future I know now that to survive, I have to run from the Pfalz if there is two, even if they are novices. Seems I just have to work harder.
On the issue of irony/sarcasm whilst they are not exactly the same, perhaps we should adopt an existing emoticon to indicate it's use. Perhaps the rolling eye. :roll:
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#99 Disposable_hero

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 00:56

I blame the AI…if you've ever noticed that in the midst of a fur ball and at the worst possible time the AI camels(spads as well) like to climb straight up to a stall(usually to shoot at an aircraft above them…I call it "spiking") and that's when you nail em! Wouldn't be surprised if your AI teamates were making the same stupid maneuvers. Survivng in combat is all about speed management….the less you can load up your plane the better! and a stall is about the worst thing you can do unless you've got abosolutely no other choice(no matter how neat it looks), and even then it's a risky endeavor as your a sitting duck till you can recover and get your airspeed back up.
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#100 j9_viper

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 01:00

the camel is so easy to get kills with you need absolutely no skill at all to fly it. Its like an arcade game built for 10 yr old kids that keep pumping quarters into the game.

I flew the camel the other day and felt genuine guilt given my advanced flying skills. I changed back to my normal german side after getting 6 kills on 1 sortie.
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#101 catchov

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 01:14

May I suggest the Se5a with the original Wright Flyer prop if you want a challenge. :lol: I'll be glad when they offer a selection of props in the store. :?
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#102 SirFreddie

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 01:37

Quote R Suppards

On the issue of irony/sarcasm whilst they are not exactly the same, perhaps we should adopt an existing emoticon to indicate it's use. Perhaps the rolling eye.

I totally agree 'Rs'. I have been brought to task before for using ' :roll: ' as if I were criticising a previous post when I was actually just trying to emphasise the 'sarcasm/self deprication' of my own 'amusing/not too serious' post :roll:
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#103 R_Suppards

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 03:15

the camel is so easy to get kills with you need absolutely no skill at all to fly it. Its like an arcade game built for 10 yr old kids that keep pumping quarters into the game.

I flew the camel the other day and felt genuine guilt given my advanced flying skills. I changed back to my normal german side after getting 6 kills on 1 sortie.

Ah well, there goes my last shred of ego. ( Chokes back a sob and kicks the Camel for being so simple as to fool me).
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#104 R_Suppards

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 03:17

the camel is so easy to get kills with you need absolutely no skill at all to fly it. Its like an arcade game built for 10 yr old kids that keep pumping quarters into the game.

I flew the camel the other day and felt genuine guilt given my advanced flying skills. I changed back to my normal german side after getting 6 kills on 1 sortie.

Ah well, there goes my last shred of ego. :( ( Chokes back a sob and kicks the Camel for being so simple as to fool me).

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#105 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 03:37

the camel is so easy to get kills with you need absolutely no skill at all to fly it. Its like an arcade game built for 10 yr old kids that keep pumping quarters into the game.

I flew the camel the other day and felt genuine guilt given my advanced flying skills. I changed back to my normal german side after getting 6 kills on 1 sortie.


i dont see the big deal….i dont have trouble killing a camel with a dva….there's just a few things you can't do.

with a dr1 or a pfaltz it's real easy.

Fun game, i love it.

Hmmm!!
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#106 j9_viper

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 04:55

you disagree?
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#107 gavagai

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:42

One cannot agree or disagree with a man who contradicts himself.
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#108 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 16:30

One cannot agree or disagree with a man who contradicts himself.
+1
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#109 j9_viper

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 16:52

you dont understand what i wrote. ".there's just a few things you can't do." in a camel, you can kill any plane regardless of your position. In a dr1 or camel you need certain conditions.

make sure you read the WHOLE post before you make comments.

Im not expecting to change anything, im just saying i dont feel depressed about being shot down by a f16…er i mean camel.
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#110 No43_Moggy

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 17:45

Once the Camel's true problem is resolved (the systematic abuse of RPM) the whole situation of "speed" etc. will vanish. If you want to try this for yourself, fly the Camel and limit your RPM to 1,200 (Clerget's recommendation) or 1,250 (Gwynnes' recommendation). Is it still too fast then?
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#111 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 18:13

you dont understand what i wrote. ".there's just a few things you can't do." in a camel, you can kill any plane regardless of your position. In a dr1 or camel you need certain conditions.

make sure you read the WHOLE post before you make comments
Im not expecting to change anything, im just saying i dont feel depressed about being shot down by a f16…er i mean camel.

Ok then sorry, I did a search of all your old post and read all the topics and post.

Its all clear to me now. If there's anyone else also confused they should do the same. :D
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#112 BSS_DrGlow

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 18:29

Once the Camel's true problem is resolved (the systematic abuse of RPM) the whole situation of "speed" etc. will vanish. If you want to try this for yourself, fly the Camel and limit your RPM to 1,200 (Clerget's recommendation) or 1,250 (Gwynnes' recommendation). Is it still too fast then?

Moggy, from what Iv read and my own experience with the Camel, I think you are right on the money.
I can fly around all day long at 1400rpm without any adverse effects,only in a dive do I have to throttle back, this is something the Dev's should look at
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#113 No43_Moggy

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 22:30

Moggy, from what Iv read and my own experience with the Camel, I think you are right on the money.
I can fly around all day long at 1400rpm without any adverse effects,only in a dive do I have to throttle back, this is something the Dev's should look at

Exactly my point DrGlow, we've got 3 sources (Clerget, Tom's cockpit plate and Gene DeMarco's engine manual) basically saying do not exceed 1200-1300 RPM in the Camel but that's exactly what we've been doing in the RoF Camel.
The question is how to fix it. I did suggest random engine performance but that's not without it's own problems and issues. Another possibility would be to have some kind of engine problem\failure if it's pushed too hard, but again this leads to how long do you go before the failure occurs. I think the best solution would be to limit the engine to say 1250 RPM as per the cockpit plate, similar to the Sopwith Triplane if you like.
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#114 gavagai

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 22:32

You're talking a complete re-work of the flight model, of course, but we expect the best!
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#115 No43_Moggy

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 22:39

Would it really need a complete re-work of the flight model if the engine is limited to say 1250 RPM? Imagine if you're a pilot in a Ruston Proctor engined Camel, plate in front of you saying do not exceed 1250 RPM. Knowing what you know, would you risk going over 1250 RPM?
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#116 Tom-Cundall

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 23:18

Gav made a good point in a different thread that the tests don't seem to have been done with full fuel but our camel matches performance with a full tank and therefore becomes too good with less fuel.

Combine that with 159-200 less RPM and we're getting under why it is on roids at the moment.
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#117 gavagai

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 00:32

Would it really need a complete re-work of the flight model if the engine is limited to say 1250 RPM?

Yes, because at 1250rpm its performance would be worse than it should be. I'd also like to be able to feel more of the torque like you can in the Dr1 and N17.
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#118 j9_viper

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 01:06

you dont understand what i wrote. ".there's just a few things you can't do." in a camel, you can kill any plane regardless of your position. In a dr1 or camel you need certain conditions.

make sure you read the WHOLE post before you make comments
Im not expecting to change anything, im just saying i dont feel depressed about being shot down by a f16…er i mean camel.

Ok then sorry, I did a search of all your old post and read all the topics and post.

Its all clear to me now. If there's anyone else also confused they should do the same. :D

no problem at all. it happens.
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#119 No43_Moggy

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 10:28

Would it really need a complete re-work of the flight model if the engine is limited to say 1250 RPM?

Yes, because at 1250rpm its performance would be worse than it should be. I'd also like to be able to feel more of the torque like you can in the Dr1 and N17.

Well I suppose it'll need 1 then if it's going to be fixed. And yes I do agree about the torque, I certainly don't need so much rudder in turns as what I've read.
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#120 rolikiraly

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 10:49

Sorry if this has already been written down but i think there was a poll about the best aircrsft where D.VIIF got around 22% and Camel around 15%
BTW do you think the camel is unbeatable with the fokker in single player (with, lets say ace difficulty)?
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