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Halberstadt CL.II Peroformance


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#201 1PL-Lucas-1Esk

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 00:44

estimated absolute ceiling, 16,000 ft. ; greatest height reached, 14,800 ft. in 64 min. 40 sec. ; rate of climb at this height, 50 ft. per minute.

The tested machine was a CL-2 with a 180HP motor in it. Even the Polish stop using them because they thought they were way too slow in combat.

Not exactly. Data which I have mentions the 150/160HP (one with Argus AS-III 180) engine versions. And answering your previous posts, those were not Eastern Front planes or something. Some were just stored in the Zeppelin Hangar in Ławica near Poznań (Ger: Posen), some were given by the Allies after the WW1. Of course those were worn planes, but were used in training schools and only a few in squadrons. The main 2-seaters in the PAF were: DFW C.V, LVG C.V, Breguet 14.a2 and Bristol F.2B with 300hp Hisso.

EOT

Speaking of Halb… Iam attaching a cockpit picture :)

Attached Files


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#202 Charlie_14

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 10:54

Good question about engine rating. Doesn't engine power always peaks versus rpm as well? See attached example. Perhaps some engines could not be operated for long at peak power.

Actually, no, not necessarily. Peak RPM figures may equate to peak HP output, but it's not a given…(Ignore the lower/flatter curves, those are torque figures.)

misc. examples:

Image

Image
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#203 Armincles

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 15:57

Just always remember , the worse you make the Central planes look, the worse you make the Entente pilots look!

The Cockpit picture says to me that the 160hp was not the standard engine,it just gives some instructions of how to fit it properly, obviously the 160hp version could be fitted, but with the shown additional work and adjustments.
;)
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#204 1PL-Lucas-1Esk

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 18:38

My idea was to post a preserved instruction which is still glued to the fuselage and not to argue about the engines. Maybe someone can find it interesting, that's it.
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#205 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 18:50

I disagree with Arms btw :) The Mercedes engines were pretty much identical on the exterior but the Mercedes installation was different from the Benz and Argus one, the purpose of those instruction is simply to help guild the mechanics for mounting the mercedes engine - officially all three Mercedes engines (D.III, D.IIIa and D.IIIaü) were often just refered to as Mercedes (D.III) 160PS even if it was a newer model, because they all delivered 160PS at some RPM and altitude, but it varied for all of them.
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#206 piecost

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 18:59

Charlie 14, thanks for the graphs, but - what does peak rpm mean? Is it the maximum rpm tested. There seems little point in testing much faster than peak power. The maximum rpm tested must have been at the discretion of the test engineer, perhaps they tested up to 20% faster than peak power.

Aero engines had to withstand a type test, they were tested for a number of hours at the chosen rpm without failure. Whilst the manufacturer wanted to rate the engine at the peak power, perhaps the engine could not run for the specified test period at this speed, or perhaps vibrates violently at this point (ABC Dragonfly for example).
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#207 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 19:17

An engine will have to able to run at RPMs higher than peak power however in order to sustain dives with this fixed-pitch propellers?
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#208 J99Hasso

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 20:16

Image
Image
http://www.file-upload.net/download-4022969/ArgusVergas.pdf.html
www.file-upload.net/download-4022965/ArgusL-ngs.pdf.html
The Argus As III
Motorenprüfstelle Adlershof:
Image
www.file-upload.net/download-4022826/ASIII.pdf.html
Image
Image
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#209 piecost

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 22:02

Very good point ImPeRaToR

Nice find Hasso
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#210 242Sqn_Wolf

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 23:08

Image
Image
http://www.file-upload.net/download-4022969/ArgusVergas.pdf.html
www.file-upload.net/download-4022965/ArgusL-ngs.pdf.html
The Argus As III
Motorenprüfstelle Adlershof:
Image
www.file-upload.net/download-4022826/ASIII.pdf.html


That's nice Hasso, how many made it to the front?
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#211 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 23:27

The Cockpit picture says to me that the 160hp was not the standard engine,it just gives some instructions of how to fit it properly, obviously the 160hp version could be fitted, but with the shown additional work and adjustments.

no, actually those things in the picture are general assembly notes, mainly concerning putting on the wings.. Just because I found it interessting (i´ve had trouble rigging up planes without instructions, so i kind of get a smile out of the fact they plastered it on the wood and did not overpaint it, knowing they probably did that because they knew how it feels when you don´t…)

I made a (rough) translation of 1PL-Lucas-ESzks picture, just in case someone cares

1. Boot wird unter Zuhilfenahme des roten Striches in Waage gebracht
ENG: fuselage has to be aranged in horizontal balance with the help of the red line

2.Mitteldeck muß symetrisch verspannt sein, das heisst, die heruntergeloteten An(?missing)seiten müssen vom Boot gleich weit entfernt sein.
ENG: The middle part (that wing thingy to which the left and right upper wings are to be connected) must be symmetrically rigged, measured by the distances of the rigging to the fuselage

3. Die Zelle wird eingehängt, indem die zunächst die untere Fläche (unter Vermeidung von Hammerschlägen) ans boot, dann die beiden Hängeseile und zuletzt die obere Tragfläche angeschlossen werdne.
ENG: the fuselage is to be connected to the wings by first fitting the lower wings (without the use of a hammer), then adding the two holding cables, and then adding the upper wings.


4.der Vorderholm der oberen Fläche muß in Waage gebrachte werden.
ENG: The frontspar of the upper wing needs to be horizontally balanced

5.Die untere Fläche erhält 1 1/2° V-Form in dem sie an der Stielrippe 75 mm hochgezogen wird.
ENG: 1 1/2 degree V-shape of the lower wings are archieved by lifting the rib to which the wingstruts connect, is lifted 75 mm

6. Die untere Fläche erhält an der (Wurzelrippe?) einen Anstellwinkel von 5 1/4 indem die vordere Kante derselben gegenüber der hinteren um 120mm höher zu liegen kommt.
ENG: 5 1/4 degrees angle of attack of the lower wing are archieved by putting the fromt end of (??) 120mm higher then the back end.

7. Die Staffellung beträgt, an den Stielrippen gemessen, 510 mm was durch Loten festzustellen ist.
ENG: horizontal difference between upper and lower wing is 510 mm, measured at the rib to which the wingstruts connect. (i.e. the lower wing is 51cm more aft then the upper, which needs to be verified by measuring)

8. Nachdem die Punkte 4-7 stimmen, werden die Spannschlösser gesichert.
ENG:after verifying the wing installment measures from points 4-7, the rigging locks are to be locked.

9. Der Anschluß der Ruder erfolgt indem der Steuerknüppel 20mm vor dem Schaltbrett (??) anrohr in seiner Mittelstellung festgehalten wird und zuerst das Höhenruder, dann das Seitenruder und zuletzt Querruder in Verlängerrung der betreffenden (??) saiten festgehalten werden.
ENG: the controlsurfaces are connected by holding the stick 20mm from the instrumentboard-fastening in its neutral position, first elevator, then rudder, then ailerons
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#212 Armincles

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 10:39

That's nice Hasso, how many made it to the front?


The Blue note says, that the Argus engine is the oldest German watercooled aviation engine ,and that it has now the honour to be used during the war,and will now be built in a 6cylinder form with power ranging from 100 to 200HP….

I think that obviously a lot made it to the front, as it came from an old trusted engine manufacturer.



:S!:
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#213 242Sqn_Wolf

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 16:07

That's nice Hasso, how many made it to the front?


The Blue note says, that the Argus engine is the oldest German watercooled aviation engine ,and that it has now the honour to be used during the war,and will now be built in a 6cylinder form with power ranging from 100 to 200HP….

I think that obviously a lot made it to the front, as it came from an old trusted engine manufacturer.



:S!:
They had a order for 100 at best only 89 made it from the factory. Even this is a SWAG. (SWAG+ Scientific Wild Ass Guess)

Attached File  Argus.JPG   193.74KB   992 downloads

Now we take what we do have as facts.

Attached File  Production Orders.JPG   165.03KB   992 downloads

These were the orders that were actually placed. That 1103 Aircraft at best. 100 of which were supposed to have the Argus again this is a SWAG.

Now we come to what actually was counted at the front line up to Aug of 1918.

Attached File  Frontline.JPG   73.87KB   992 downloads

Now it doesn't take much to figure out the numbers here. You notice the front line levels dropping dramatically here in August. This tells us what was actually counted as front line serviced aircraft. This tells me their production was either focused else where or their was a supply shortage somewhere.

Now if you worked with Factory orders. You would know there is a lead time of when orders are place to when they are actually delivered. Could be two weeks to six years. By that time in the war they were having a hard time making anything let alone Halberstadt CL.IIa. Judging from Peter Gronz, they were a very rare bird.
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#214 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 16:14

Now it doesn't take much to figure out the numbers here. You notice the front line levels dropping dramatically here in August. This tells us what was actually counted as front line serviced aircraft. This tells me their production was either focused else where or their was a supply shortage somewhere.

Halberstadt Cl.II production ceased in early summer in favour of the Cl.IV. BFW seems to have continued production but apparently in a smaller volume. If you add the CL.IV to the Cl.II in august you have over 300 aircraft again, so pretty much as many Halberstadt Cl planes as in the months before that.

THe Cl.IIa was only build by BFW btw.
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#215 Gunsmith86

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 12:04

Some info Mercedes D.IIIa and D.IIIaü:



Image
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1919/1919%20-%200233.html


Image
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1919/1919%20-%200234.html

Image
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1919/1919%20-%200235.html

Image
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1919/1919%20-%200236.html
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#216 Der_Sevtl

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 16:34

I have another question:

Where did the standard, factory fresh CL.IIs have their fixed MGs?
I know pictures with the MG mounted on the left side of the engine and other pics with the MG on the right side and a little bit above the engine, just like on the Halb CL.IV.

In the book Schlachtflieger!, on page 73, on the backside of the book and and colour plates 12 & 14 are photographs/pictures with examples of what I mean.
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#217 242Sqn_Wolf

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 17:33

All the photos I have seen they were on the left. Are you sure what you're seeing isn't a reversed negative photo?

Attached File  Right Side.JPG   169.28KB   873 downloads
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#218 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 17:50

Left side was burried, right side was unburried so jams could be fixed. The latter was field mod at first but eventually Cl.IIs left the factories with provisions to mount the gun on both sides.


All the photos I have seen they were on the right. Are you sure what you're seeing isn't a reversed negative photo?
That's the left side, and if it was reversed it would not say "Astra" on the propeller would it? :)
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#219 242Sqn_Wolf

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 18:01

no wonder that drill sergeant kept smacking me on the right side. :D
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#220 Dr.Zebra

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 13:29

I´d just like to throw in a big "Thank you" to all who contributed to the Halbie, IT IS GREAT!
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#221 ImPeRaToR

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 17:44

This is specifically about the Cl-class aircraft fyi:
Image

sauce: http://archive.org/d...enluf00neumgoog" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://archive.org/d...enluf00neumgoog
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#222 Lieste

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 13:38

Sweet. According to volatile void's document, the Halberstadt Cl.II will be the fastest CP aircraft in RoF.

I have to stress that I am not sure if the data on page 208 (from Textbook of applied aeronautic engineering) actually is from a Halberstadt CL.II. It could also be an article comparing the performance of an Halberstadt CL.II (data on page 209) to perhaps some other aircraft (maybe Halberstadt CL.IV?). Also it is strange that page 208 depicts a Rumpler aeroplane.

Generally the articles in "Textbook of applied aeronautic engineering" sometimes somewhat hard to interpret, since the book looks like a loose collection of shortened newspaper articles/technical reports.

I'd hazard a guess at testing of the DH9 or similar machine - 1914kg weight is much higher than that for most CP two seaters (or indeed almost all EC machines less than 'Giants') - the 'Vickers, and Lewis' suggest against a CP machine.
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#223 5tuka

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 12:56

Still very lacking. I wasn't able to reach the performance values given at the info page with the 200 hp version even with only 20% fuel on board.

Hopefully this is getting looked at in near future. It's my only disappointing purchase yet.
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