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New oil effect?


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#1 hq_Reflected

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:16

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. It makes the game much more immersive. Howevr, after our awesome rain effects I expected something different. Am I alone with this?

Currently it looks like mud (or horsesh*t :D ) being thrown at you. I expected something more like the rain effect, a thin layer of oil, spreading on your goggles, distorting the picture and giving you rainbow-like color effects.

What do you think?
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#2 Greywing2

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:19

Your not alone….this oil effect looks like somebody applied some custom (ugly) photoshop brushes on the screen…in terms of quality its not on pair with the rain drops effect…on top of that I suppose its hardly believable oil will splatter after EVERY single hit in the engine or near engine, as we have it now in the sim……more or less you cant fight after one or two hits near engine because your vision is "brushed"
:D

btw since wer at immersion….why we still dont have gun jams?
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#3 neuro

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:23

I don't even discuss the looks of the new oil effect, that's a secondary problem. The real problem is that it makes it practically impossible to keep fighting after being hit. Please remove it… or at least give us a 'wipe goggles' key!
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#4 Greywing2

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:25

I don't even discuss the looks of the new oil effect, that's a secondary problem. The real problem is that it makes it practically impossible to keep fighting after being hit. Please remove it… or at least give us a 'wipe goggles' key!

Yes.
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#5 hq_Reflected

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:25

I don't even discuss the looks of the new oil effect, that's a secondary problem. The real problem is that it makes it practically impossible to keep fighting after being hit. Please remove it… or at least give us a 'wipe goggles' key!


That's not a problem IMO. After you're engine is that damaged, you wouldn't be able to keep on fighting anyway.
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#6 SYN_MrWolf

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:28

I agree Refelected. I was also hoping for a black rain effect. And I was expecting to see it spraying out of the engine for some reason. Tho I am happy with this as well.

Wondering..wouldn't it be easy to just duplicate the rain effect and make it black instead of transparent.
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#7 =Fifi=

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:32

Same as you Greg.
Was expecting kind of oil drops slowly rolling like rain.

By the way, wasn't it presented as mouving/wipe off on googles when leaning on cockpit side with the wind?
Maybe not that easy to model :?
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#8 Finkeren

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:38

I was a bit disappointed too, when I saw the oil effect. I guess I was also expecting "brown rain" (not black btw, to my knowledge castor oil isn't black)

However, I do like the effect that it has on gameplay, it gives you a nice visual feedback and really gives you an incentive to duck down below your windscreen, so I guess my criticism is purely based on how it looks and the fact that it isn't visible externally.
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#9 ZaltysZ

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:40

If you turn your head away from engine, oil will eventually disappear from goggles, so look at 3 or 9 o'clock for a while before landing, and avoid looking directly forward as much as you can in dogfight.
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#10 Pimpin

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:45

I don't like it personally. I thought it would look more like the rain effect as well.
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#11 150GCT_Veltro

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:46

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. It makes the game much more immersive. Howevr, after our awesome rain effects I expected something different. Am I alone with this?

Currently it looks like mud (or horsesh*t :D ) being thrown at you. I expected something more like the rain effect, a thin layer of oil, spreading on your goggles, distorting the picture and giving you rainbow-like color effects.

What do you think?

You've given yourself the answer to your question: "after our awesome rain effects I expected something different". Rain effect is so incredible that is very hard to have a new effect like it. Oil effect is good enough, even if i was waiting myself too for something more but is ok. So the problem is the rain effect that is really incredible, and it can't be a standard. It would be probably too much also for RoF.
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#12 Greywing2

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 10:55

I don't even discuss the looks of the new oil effect, that's a secondary problem. The real problem is that it makes it practically impossible to keep fighting after being hit. Please remove it… or at least give us a 'wipe goggles' key!


That's not a problem IMO. After you're engine is that damaged, you wouldn't be able to keep on fighting anyway.

Last night I got one or two bullets near engine but my engine was ok, then oil splattered the whole screen and I could fight anymore. Couldnt see anything.
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#13 SYN_Jedders

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:02

I used to race motorbikes (long time ago now) and have seen a lot of occasions where guys engines infront of me either "let go" or were on their way out. I can assure you that the effect is VERY close to reality! (of course we werent using castor oil…Im not that feckin old!). Basically when the oil hit the wind/turbulence it "mists"…think turbo-fan and you got the idea….so its not hitting you in "blobs". In that respect it cant be the same effect as the raindrops.

On a sidenote, if you were to try and "wipe" the oil off your visor with your glove…it always made it a helluva lot worse!

I think it has been done very well :)
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#14 Finkeren

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:06

I used to race motorbikes (long time ago now) and have seen a lot of occasions where guys engines infront of me either "let go" or were on their way out. I can assure you that the effect is VERY close to reality! (of course we werent using castor oil…Im not that feckin old!). Basically when the oil hit the wind/turbulence it "mists"…think turbo-fan and you got the idea….so its not hitting you in "blobs". In that respect it cant be the same effect as the raindrops.

On a sidenote, if you were to try and "wipe" the oil off your visor with your glove…it always made it a helluva lot worse!

I think it has been done very well :)

Interesting insight. Made me reconsider my stance on this.
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#15 Endy

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:13

I'll go with Jedders on this, IMO it looks good, and it doesn't block your vision too much.
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#16 Greywing2

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:14

I used to race motorbikes (long time ago now) and have seen a lot of occasions where guys engines infront of me either "let go" or were on their way out. I can assure you that the effect is VERY close to reality! (of course we werent using castor oil…Im not that feckin old!). Basically when the oil hit the wind/turbulence it "mists"…think turbo-fan and you got the idea….so its not hitting you in "blobs". In that respect it cant be the same effect as the raindrops.

On a sidenote, if you were to try and "wipe" the oil off your visor with your glove…it always made it a helluva lot worse!

I think it has been done very well :)

Agree on the look, I was thinking on the quality….but like I said its not an big issue, the effect is fine. What I dont like is I can get dirty screen after one or two bullets near engine while my engine is still ok. This means only a dirty goggles will make my further fight impossible.
BUT, TBH I think this effect ads immersion and along with the gun jams would be a good combo.
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#17 O_Rod

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:22

It's a new effect and like all things new will take a bit of getting used to. I too would like a 'wipe goggles' key. I understand not having one for blood, that's more than lokely inside the lenses, but oil isn't and I know I'd wipe the lenses to try to improve my vision.
Great update though, Love this Sim.
Cheers
Rod
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Vitae elit Brevior


#18 hq_Reflected

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:27

I used to race motorbikes (long time ago now) and have seen a lot of occasions where guys engines infront of me either "let go" or were on their way out. I can assure you that the effect is VERY close to reality! (of course we werent using castor oil…Im not that feckin old!). Basically when the oil hit the wind/turbulence it "mists"…think turbo-fan and you got the idea….so its not hitting you in "blobs". In that respect it cant be the same effect as the raindrops.

On a sidenote, if you were to try and "wipe" the oil off your visor with your glove…it always made it a helluva lot worse!

I think it has been done very well :)

Really? Thanks for sharing that. I have no experience, my expectations were based on mere speculations.

I also didn't know that they disappear if you turn your head. I thought you had to lean away.
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#19 hq_Jorri

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:35

Rain is a post-effect, and can be turned off. Basically because it requires good hardware, so its important to have as an option.

The oil is enough of a gameplay factor that it would be a huge advantage if you could turn it off. So it shouldn't be a 3D post effect liek the raindrops, in my opinion.

I also thought it looked quite bad, but it's nice to hear of first-hand experience with something similar from Jedders. I wonder if more people have experienced something like this? Womenfly?
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#20 Wels

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 11:40

Hi,
i think most people think of those war films, where the Messerschmidt (or insert any plane here) pilot had a shot in the oil cooler or engine, and thick black oil blackened the canopy or face of the pilot - i think it would indeed look more like the RoF team did it, because the oil is being dispersed by the hefty wind, and also not all oil will fly towards the canopy, or in the face of the pilot.

Maybe the windscreen on planes that have such, could be blackened a bit too, so you would have to lean out to see anything, or at least better ?

Wiping the goggles would make things worse for sure, you would not be able to see anything through this water/oil/dirt mix. In reality the pilot would throw his goggles away to at least see anything after trying to wipe.

I admit i only have experience with my '69 Spit oil cooler failure, and a motor bike lol
Maybe a real pilot could chime in, but i think it's quite realistic as it has been done now.

Thanks and greetings,
Wels/Catfish
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#21 WF2

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 12:51

hq_Jorri: I have not had the chance to fly the new 1.022 with oil effect. I will over the holidays and let you know my opinion for what its worth.

Flying a rotary engine plane one all the time gets very fine mist of caster-oil on ones goggles. I did learn early that cleaning them with a silk scarf does not absorb oil from ones goggles, only smears it. Cotton worked best. Leather gloves a no-no too.

My Piet had an oil leak once, but the oil was not black on my goggles. I was more like a fine mist of clear luminous rainbow effect thick rain, even though the oil in the engine was very dark brown. In-line engines did not use caster-oil. Oil leak was from around the head gasket so it was in-line with my face. Also, no wind screen to duck behind, taste bad too!

I think one of the important issues to be considered here trying to simulate something like an oil leak is, who do you go to to really find out what it should look and act like? If no information is available, which there is, then one has to use best guess and assumptions. But they try which is the most important part.

Still love that Jason and the 777 team still stretch the sim world to the extreme edge and give us patches and update for FREE.

A big thank you to all the 777 team's guy's and gal's working on RoF!

JMHO.

…. could someone post a few videos of the new oil effect?

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#22 Frankyboy

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 13:14

to get the oil effect is rather simple, just dive and overrev…..
btw, soon after the engine has stoped, the oil is beginning to dissapear - yes, looking forward ;)

combat damage might behave different , but i would be surprised.
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#23 J9_Austin

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 13:58

Image
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#24 SYN_MrWolf

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 14:00

you have quite a serie already Austin. You should make a thread of your arworks like Roen!
You'll be famous!
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#25 Finkeren

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 14:03

What Womenfly2 describes is propably closer to what I'd expect: A thin film of transparent oil settling on the goggles, distorting the vision and collecting dirt slowly getting more opaque.

Anyway the "Santorum-effect" is good enough for me. It definately serves its purpose without eating much GPU.
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#26 gavagai

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 14:12

Why would anyone expect oil on your goggles to behave like rain? In chemical terms the two substances are about as different as…oil and water.
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#27 SYN_MrWolf

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 14:17

Well..it could be in a game development way be a easy way to simulate fluid. I don't think anyone thinks it acts the same in real life.
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#28 Grilo2

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 14:37

I think that the way the oil-on-goggles effect is modelled is a good compromise between realism and implementation possibilities. The fading effect was a very good idea.

I only fear that this effect is triggered to often. From my experience with this ROF version, each time you get a bullet in your engine, the oil effect is triggered. Of course it is difficult to count how many bullets hit you. But assuming that the probability of triggering the effect given that the engine is hit is 100%, I must disagree with it for now. I admit that I do not know enough to judge whether this matches the experience of real WWI pilots, but my fear is that the triggering of this effect is being exhagerated and should be twicked. I admit that there must be aprobability of it happenning, but assuming that it always happen (i.e. that all engine damage has the same result regarding oil burts) I think is not likely from the realism point of view. After all, not all parts of the engine case are filled with oil.

Grilo
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#29 hq_Conga

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 14:59

I also thought it looked quite bad, but it's nice to hear of first-hand experience with something similar from Jedders. I wonder if more people have experienced something like this?

I can bring my experience with two-strokes 250cc race motorbikes. In those designed by the devil machines lot of oil ends to gather in the in bulging section of the exhaust pipes. Now when a guy in front of you on the starting line gives full throttle the flow of air nebulizes parts of the liquid lying in the "belly" of the pipe and throw it back out of it. Even with the klutch pulled, so with the bike standing still, you get a nice spray of oil in front of you which resembles very much in colour and dispersion to the new effect.

The visors of the helmets are in plastic while i assume the WWI goggles were in glass, but i believe the effect might be the same. I can confirm that trying to wipe it out only worsen the visibility, and i can confirm Womenfly's perception of rainbow-like reflections when in direct sunlight. Once you apply wind to the sprayed surface the oil doesn't drip away that much and be aware that the helmet's visor has a curved surface that eases the dripping process more than goggles which if iirc are flat or polygonal.

The results after a prolonged exposure to the wind are of a betterment of the visibility with some residues, some halos (mainly being dust and dirt mixed with the oil), remaining on the surface until proper cleaning.

to make an example: from • to °, I do not know if I give the idea.

S!

EDIT: what i do not like of the effect as it is right now is that its texture it's a bit gross, i can see the pixels. and when one spray overlays another the effect looks a bit phony, but, this is not a major issue, imho, i am in love with this patch so far. Good job 777.
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#30 Brandiment

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 15:30

I have been in a simular situation and yes whipeing oil off of googles make you blind. (never go paintballing with oil based paint.)
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#31 WF2

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 15:39

J9_Austin: WOW! …. must be an RAF pilot!
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#32 Brandiment

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 15:42

anyway cudos onthe awsome oil effect.
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#33 gwalch

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 16:52

I don't mind it as at the very least it gives variety and additional interest.
I remember they had a good oil splashing/smearing effect in Wings of Prey.Or did they?
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#34 Brandiment

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 18:43

i belive they did
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#35 Mogster

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 18:57

I used to race motorbikes (long time ago now) and have seen a lot of occasions where guys engines infront of me either "let go" or were on their way out. I can assure you that the effect is VERY close to reality! (of course we werent using castor oil…Im not that feckin old!). Basically when the oil hit the wind/turbulence it "mists"…think turbo-fan and you got the idea….so its not hitting you in "blobs". In that respect it cant be the same effect as the raindrops.

On a sidenote, if you were to try and "wipe" the oil off your visor with your glove…it always made it a helluva lot worse!

I think it has been done very well :)

Nice insight Jedders, very helpful. Thanks :S!:
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#36 Damocles

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 19:31

I keep going back to the RE 8 at Wingnuts Wings to have a look at oil effect. Presumably the photos just show normal operation as opposed to damage (seems to chuck out a lot of oil. It's a pity the oil effect is only confined to the goggles and not the wind shield.

Harry Tate



As a side note does anyone else find the reflections on the Harry Tate windscreen distracting ?
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#37 Charlie_14

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 19:57

I used to race motorbikes (long time ago now) and have seen a lot of occasions where guys engines infront of me either "let go" or were on their way out. I can assure you that the effect is VERY close to reality! (of course we werent using castor oil…Im not that feckin old!). Basically when the oil hit the wind/turbulence it "mists"…think turbo-fan and you got the idea….so its not hitting you in "blobs". In that respect it cant be the same effect as the raindrops.

On a sidenote, if you were to try and "wipe" the oil off your visor with your glove…it always made it a helluva lot worse!

I think it has been done very well :)

I'd second these observations, I've held a competition license since 1985, still get out occasionally, and have observed my share of fragged motors in front of me oiling any number of things including myself, the fairing, and my visor. Rain is not a problem visibility wise, the spray off the track is, it hinders visibility generally, but not the rain on a visor. Oil is a problem. It smears, it doesn't bead up and dissipate, you can't see through oil, if you wipe it it gets worse. (If you are on two wheels visibility is the least of your concerns with oil on the track though, you will be on the ground shortly.)
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#38 =Fifi=

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 20:39

I'm guessing now we were wrong about the rain drops.
In my mind i was imaginating oil slowly rolling on googles sides with wind (slower than water) and quite sticky.

The actual oil effect give me same feeling as it was mud…pretty "fixed" on screen.
But maybe Jedders is right. Have to try with real hot oil and let you know! :lol:
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#39 =NFF=Rock

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 21:13

I do not mind the oil effect , but we need a way to wipe it off even if it smears some .
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#40 brando

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 21:17

One talks of oil leaks after just a couple of rounds hitting the engine area, expressing surprise, but a quick look at most of the engines of the day will surely explain why. External oil pipes are very common, especially on the rotaries which all had at least one feed to the rocker shaft(s) on each cylinder, plus the valve gear (rockers, tappets & valve stems) itself was exposed as well. The cowling gave some protection, both to the engine and to the pilot as well, preventing him from getting spattered with oil even before any major oil leak occurred. I'll explain that last point.

All the rotary engines of the time ran a total-loss oiling system. This means that, like Conga's two-stroke bikes, the excess (used) oil was not collected and returned to the oil tank but (most) left the engine via the exhaust system as a vapour. Note also, the exhaust stubs were just that, stubs. There was no pipework or baffles like an in-line engine has. All of it, plus the oil to the rocker bearings as well as any small leaks in the feed lines, was flung off the rotating cylinders. Thus, if you look at film of a rotary being run without the cowling, you can see that the engine is constantly surrounded by a halo of castor oil, burnt and un-burnt, which then flies backwards in the propwash. This is the main reason for the cowling's presence: it is there to catch this vapour and redirect it towards the bottom of the aircraft, where it can escape without fouling the pilot and the upper areas of the fuselage and the wing surfaces.

So then, imagine the result of one or two bullets hitting and penetrating the cowling. They impinge with a set of iron cylinders flying around at 1200 rpm, and probably ricochet at least once before their energy is absorbed. It doesn't take a lot of energy to fracture a copper oil-feed pipe, at which point a fair amount of hot oil under pressure will start to spray out - and continue to do so until the oil tank is drained, at which point the rockers and valve stems will start to seize up and disintegrate and the engine will cease to function. The excess oil will be forced out through any holes in the cowling, or could seep through the back edge of the cowling, or be sprayed forward and come back around the cowling. Whichever way, a percentage will end up on the fly-screen and the pilot's goggles. The possibility of mist and/or blobs appearing is fairly equal. If there's enough mist it will form blobs as it coalesces on perspex or glass.

I forgot to mention shrapnel. Jagged chunks of red-hot iron blown out from bursting archie will have just the same effect if they reach the engine bay. Once the oil starts to leak then it's time to start thinking of glide ranges and setting the kite down. :S!:
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